Opinion about knives lost during shipping

trakker45 said:
I have had a postal worker tell me to my face that if you cannot objectively prove the insured value of the item you insured, then your claim is going to be denied. Thus, you are kidding yourself if you think the USPS is going to pay out more than a few hundred dollars for a pocketknife. This is why certain high end dealers will only ship FedEx- the postal service insurance thing is a joke. Just my opinion, but I happen to believe it based on actual conversations with postal employees.
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All the postal service wants is a receipt. I've made claims before, providing the paypal transaction printed out for the item sold and I've had no problem.
 
As a seller here on BF, I always assume responsibility for the knife until my buyer informs me that they have received it and are 100% happy.

AFAIC, reputation is worth much more to me than a knife. Had a case once where the knife I sold didn't show up on time. I bought my buyer a new knife in the configuration he wanted and had it shipped directly from the dealer to him.

Can't speak for anyone but me, but that's how I do things as a seller.
 
I'm intrigued by the idea of claiming that most people agree with "me," but they're afraid to say so. Yes, that is indeed an interesting rhetorical strategy.
 
colubrid said:
I am not a vendor or knife maker. This is a hobby. As I have been shipping in several "other" hobbies (besides knives). The standard is when the item is accepted by the shipper and tracking is provided the item becomes the buyer has completed.

For business owners, vendors, knife maker or knife brokers a different rule applies and if the knife is lost the business owner either replaces the item or gives a refund.

I have been buying and selling knives here longer than most people. I can tell you amongst most of the long term knife guys on here this is sort of a known thing that unless the buyer asks for extra insurance then the knife will be fully insured.

Now any seller can always fully pay the buyer for a knife they sent them if it gets lost. That is up to them. But from experience and buying and selling a lot with other members here I can tell you unless you want to have extra insurance on a knife you should ask the seller to add the extra amount for full insurance. It is not included into the price of a knife.


This is sorta a double edge sword issue. Most experienced sellers know what I am saying is true but don't want to post on this thread .. Kinda like the Paypal Net vs Friends and Family thing.
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That is not the "standard" here or anywhere else. The seller is responsible to get the knife or any item to the buyer. That is just common sense.
Using your logic -What would stop a shady seller from taking a buyer's money and then shipping an empty box? "Hey, I shipped it and you did not ask for insurance; so too bad for you".
 
I have never had a knife lost in the mail, but if I did, I would refund the buyer's money. It is the same way I would want to be treated, and it is important to me that the buyer is satisfied with the deal.
 
colubrid said:
I am not a vendor or knife maker. This is a hobby. As I have been shipping in several "other" hobbies (besides knives). The standard is when the item is accepted by the shipper and tracking is provided the item becomes the buyer has completed.

For business owners, vendors, knife maker or knife brokers a different rule applies and if the knife is lost the business owner either replaces the item or gives a refund.

I have been buying and selling knives here longer than most people. I can tell you amongst most of the long term knife guys on here this is sort of a known thing that unless the buyer asks for extra insurance then the knife will be fully insured.

Now any seller can always fully pay the buyer for a knife they sent them if it gets lost. That is up to them. But from experience and buying and selling a lot with other members here I can tell you unless you want to have extra insurance on a knife you should ask the seller to add the extra amount for full insurance. It is not included into the price of a knife.


This is sorta a double edge sword issue. Most experienced sellers know what I am saying is true but don't want to post on this thread .. Kinda like the Paypal Net vs Friends and Family thing.
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Blatant double standards SMH. I don't know how you can even try to rationalize that. I'm sure the reason the other "experienced sellers" aren't chiming in is because they're probably aware that they are being shady, you seem to think it's perfectly acceptable though. It's not.
 
The law in all fifty states - and for generations - is that the seller bears the entire risk of loss until the item is delivered UNLESS the parties mutually agree to some other arrangement.

Part of the logic of the law is that the seller typically packages the item, selects the shipper, and addresses the item - each of which impacts the likelihood of delivery.

Whether we like the law or not is neither here nor there.
 
dalefuller said:
As a seller here on BF, I always assume responsibility for the knife until my buyer informs me that they have received it and are 100% happy.

AFAIC, reputation is worth much more to me than a knife. Had a case once where the knife I sold didn't show up on time. I bought my buyer a new knife in the configuration he wanted and had it shipped directly from the dealer to him.

Can't speak for anyone but me, but that's how I do things as a seller.
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Damn, son. That is some good customer service.
 
colubrid said:
I am not a vendor or knife maker. This is a hobby. As I have been shipping in several "other" hobbies (besides knives). The standard is when the item is accepted by the shipper and tracking is provided the item becomes the buyer has completed.

For business owners, vendors, knife maker or knife brokers a different rule applies and if the knife is lost the business owner either replaces the item or gives a refund.

I have been buying and selling knives here longer than most people. I can tell you amongst most of the long term knife guys on here this is sort of a known thing that unless the buyer asks for extra insurance then the knife will be fully insured.

Now any seller can always fully pay the buyer for a knife they sent them if it gets lost. That is up to them. But from experience and buying and selling a lot with other members here I can tell you unless you want to have extra insurance on a knife you should ask the seller to add the extra amount for full insurance. It is not included into the price of a knife.


This is sorta a double edge sword issue. Most experienced sellers know what I am saying is true but don't want to post on this thread .. Kinda like the Paypal Net vs Friends and Family thing.
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This is even more silly than your other posts on the subject. It does not matter if you are a vendor or a dealer or a maker, a sale is a sale. You are completely wrong and no one except other shady people agree with you. Probably the other "net" to me gift users as well.

You shot yourself in the foot again. Congratulations.
 
Thomas Linton said:
The law in all fifty states - and for generations - is that the seller bears the entire risk of loss until the item is delivered UNLESS the parties mutually agree to some other arrangement.

Part of the logic of the law is that the seller typically packages the item, selects the shipper, and addresses the item - each of which impacts the likelihood of delivery.

Whether we like the law or not is neither here nor there.
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So when when do knives get lost in the mail? For what reason? If the address was wrong (tracking proves that now) the seller would be or the buyer?.. if they gave the wrong addrees or street number (typos) or their address is an old address listed on their Paypal and is different from there new residence they just moved to (happens more than you think). Also what if the knife is considered illegal in the location the buyer is located the knife is confiscated and not returned to the buyer? (examples would be elephant ivory without paperwork, automatic knives, blade length) .The buyer should know their laws in their jurisdiction . If a box is shipped empty (like someone suggested) then that seller would not be here long anyway. He is a thief. Same goes with not giving full discloser on condition of a knife or if the knife is misrepresented. I don't think this thread about who is trying to cheat someone but somehow people have turned it into that.


Coming from my experience here. All the high end sales I have made the seller asks for the extra insurance and offers to pay for it. I think that anyone buying a $500. $1000., $2500. knife would naturally ask that question if they are making a purchase from a private seller since the extra costs beyond the deal is quite a bit of extra money.

I have made quite a bit of deals here and dealing with regulars this seems to be quite obvious. Take my advice and always ask the seller about insurance on a high end knife if you want that extra comfort level. I would.
 
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colubrid said:
So when when do knives get lost in the mail? For what reason? If the address was wrong (tracking proves that now) the seller would be or the buyer?.. if they gave the wrong addrees or street number (typos) or their address is an old address listed on their Paypal and is different from there new residence they just moved to (happens more than you think). Also what if the knife is considered illegal in the location the buyer is located the knife is confiscated and not returned to the buyer? (examples would be elephant ivory without paperwork, automatic knives, blade length) .The buyer should know their laws in their jurisdiction . If a box is shipped empty (like someone suggested) then that seller would not be here long anyway. He is a thief. Same goes with not giving full discloser on condition of a knife or if the knife is misrepresented. I don't think this thread about who is trying to cheat someone but somehow people have turned it into that.


Coming from my experience here. All the high end sales I have made the seller asks for the extra insurance and offers to pay for it. I think that anyone buying a $500. $1000., $2500. knife would naturally ask that question if they are making a purchase from a private seller since the extra costs beyond the deal is quite a bit of extra money.

I have made quite a bit of deals here and dealing with regulars this seems to be quite obvious. Take my advice and always ask the seller about insurance on a high end knife if you want that extra comfort level. I would.
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Packages get lost all the time for one reason or another. I'd hazard a guess that 9x out of 10 it's the fault of the shipper: improper packaging, not enough tape, smudging an address or typing it in wrong, trying to cheap out on envelops or boxes (i.e., trying to cram a large, heavy item into a document mailer because it's cheaper), etc....
The rest of the time, it could be any number of reasons on the shipping company's side: improper or rough handling of the package, misplacing the package, the package fell off the truck or got damaged in a sorting machine, or maybe it was just outright stolen, etc...

On the rare occasion that it might be the BUYER'S responsibility, I.E., they forget to update their paypal address and it never gets forwarded or returned to the seller for whatever reason, or they send the seller the wrong address altogether, then that package is not really "lost", it was just delivered where the buyer had specified, and I'm not sure anybody on here would argue that the seller should eat the costs. Same for when trying to order and ship something into your country that you know (or SHOULD know) is probably not going to make it through customs. I would think that most buyers realize that they are responsible for things like duty fees and whether or not they can legally obtain what they are trying to purchase.



At the end of the day, if I buy ANYTHING and the item doesn't arrive for ANY reason other than my own negligence in updating an address in PayPal, then I'm expecting a refund. If the seller refuses, I'm filing a claim with PayPal, and 99% of time, I'm going to win that claim. THAT is my extra comfort level. PayPal terms of service for buyers and sellers are pretty clear, as is the insurance agreement that you sign when you mail a package.
 
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knife to a gunfight said:
At the end of the day, if I buy ANYTHING and the item doesn't arrive for ANY reason other than my own negligence in updating an address in PayPal, then I'm expecting a refund. If the seller refuses, I'm filing a claim with PayPal, and 99% of time, I'm going to win that claim. THAT is my extra comfort level. PayPal terms of service for buyers and sellers are pretty clear, as is the insurance agreement that you sign when you mail a package.
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Agreed. But this guy is using the net to me thing. Go look at his sales threads. His buyers don't necessarily have recourse through paypal and thus is strange ideas on how a transaction should work.
 
The answer to the question is based on the contract between the buyer and the seller.

I think we are all familiar with the term FOB - Free on Board. This is a contractual agreement between the buyer and seller to the have the subject of the sale delivered to a predesignated place, either place of shipment or destination, without additional expense of the buyer. Something designated FOB shipping point shifts the risk of loss to the BUYER as soon as the package is delivered to the common carrier (USPS, Fed EX, etc.).

Some of the analogies above are not on point. If the seller properly insures the package, per the buyer's instructions, why would the risk of loss NOT shift to the buyer at that point?

If the buyer 100% guaranteed delivery they should pay extra for Fed Ex, or pick it up in person.

I want someone to explain to me why the seller should be on the hook for a 3rd parties failure to deliver. The sale of the knife is a contract between the seller and the buyer.

The interaction with the common carrier, to secure delivery of the package, is entered into by the seller on the buyers behalf. That is a contract between the buyer and the common carrier. The seller has nothing to do with it.

The reason Amazon will resend the contents of a lost package as they have a claim against the common carrier. I guarantee you if Amazon could not recover from the common carrier they would have a provision in their terms that said FOB shipping point - with risk of loss shifting to the buyer as soon as the mail truck drives off.

Contrary to to Linton states above, the current U.C.C. in this country states that agreements that are silent as to the point of delivery are commonly held to be a FOB shipping point agreement.
 
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seeverscpa said:
The answer to the question is based on the contract between the buyer and the seller.

I think we are all familiar with the term FOB - Free on Board. This is a contractual agreement between the buyer and seller to the have the subject of the sale delivered to a predesignated place, either place of shipment or destination, without additional expense of the buyer. Something designated FOB shipping point shifts the risk of loss to the BUYER as soon as the package is delivered to the common carrier (USPS, Fed EX, etc.).

Some of the analogies above are not on point. If the seller properly insures the package, per the buyer's instructions, why would the risk of loss NOT shift to the buyer at that point?

If the buyer 100% guaranteed delivery they should pay extra for Fed Ex, or pick it up in person.

I want someone to explain to me why the seller should be on the hook for a 3rd parties failure to deliver. The sale of the knife is a contract between the seller and the buyer.

The interaction with the common carrier, to secure delivery of the package, is entered into by the seller on the buyers behalf. That is a contract between the buyer and the common carrier. The seller has nothing to do with it.

The reason Amazon will resend the contents of a lost package as they have a claim against the common carrier. I guarantee you if Amazon could not recover from the common carrier they would have a provision in their terms that said FOB shipping point - with risk of loss shifting to the buyer as soon as the mail truck drives off.
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How can a buyer collect insurance for which he/she did not pay?
 
Folks I am not agreeing one way or the other on this, I am just giving my experiences and knowledge.

Remember that with a properly insured package neither the buyer nor seller is out anything one the claim is made. It's where there is no insurance or inadequate insurance that problems arise.

I have a client who imports machines from Italy, and they are FOB Italy - so my client assumes risk the moment the machine is loaded onto a plane in Italy bound for the USA. What if the machine made it all the way to around the corner from my client, at this point the machine is on a delivery truck, and the truck crashes and burns, with the machine being totally destroyed. The seller should be responsible for that?

These machines are insured out the wazoo the moment they leave Italy.
 
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I used to work for a guy who shipped glass items all over the USA. Despite our best efforts at packing the items, roughly 50% of the items broke in transit. UPS was just way to rough with the packages. The seller would not allow the buyer to purchase a glass item without insurance, and as a facet of customer service, if a package arrived to the buyer in a broken condition, the seller would reship and file a claim for recovery on the damages. That was a voluntary move by the seller, the law did not require that as the items were shipped FOB shipping point. But the seller understood that his business would not last if he made the buyer go through the claim process before reshipping.
 
The FOB analogies are not relevant to ecommerce or the case that the OP is asking.
Everyone knows and understands that the practice is for the seller to make sure the item gets to the buyer. It's just common sense - the buyer selects the carrier, packs it, and pays the carrier - so yes they should be responsible. The only exception would be if the Seller specifically and plainly states otherwise in the sale ad.

Now, as to the glass place you worked at and your "experience/knowledge" - there is no way that UPS would handle that business if half the shipments were damaged in transit and they had to pay claims. They would only let that go on for a short period of time, then they would tell the shipper one of two things: Either you improve the packaging to meet industry standards or we will not do business with you. If 50% is being damaged then your "best packing efforts" were not cutting it what so ever. UPS, FedEx, etc. are not in business to lose money paying claims because of improper packaging. And yes, if the damage rate was that high - the packaging had to be bad. Not sure how a business could be successful if half of their customers always got damaged items. Based on what you stated, 25% + of the customers would have had to receive damaged items two or three times back to back.
 
Gastonknife said:
The FOB analogies are not relevant to ecommerce or the case that the OP is asking.
Everyone knows and understands that the practice is for the seller to make sure the item gets to the buyer. It's just common sense - the buyer selects the carrier, packs it, and pays the carrier - so yes they should be responsible. The only exception would be if the Seller specifically and plainly states otherwise in the sale ad.

Now, as to the glass place you worked at and your "experience/knowledge" - there is no way that UPS would handle that business if half the shipments were damaged in transit and they had to pay claims. They would only let that go on for a short period of time, then they would tell the shipper one of two things: Either you improve the packaging to meet industry standards or we will not do business with you. If 50% is being damaged then your "best packing efforts" were not cutting it what so ever. UPS, FedEx, etc. are not in business to lose money paying claims because of improper packaging. And yes, if the damage rate was that high - the packaging had to be bad. Not sure how a business could be successful if half of their customers always got damaged items. Based on what you stated, 25% + of the customers would have had to receive damaged items two or three times back to back.
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So the UCC no longer applies to ecommerce? I missed that memo. Actually I missed congress rescinding the UCC I guess.

Common sense has zip to to with the UCC. And you are patently wrong. If you consider these sale posts "ad's" then the UCC clearly applies.

The seller is responsible for ensuring the package arrives at the common carrier in the same condition it was when the buyer paid for it, unless they agree otherwise. We seem to be following a better set of governing principles here at the forum with most sellers taking the risk all the way to the point of destination.

We agree in principle. I am just pointing out the UCC still exists and we are not following it here per se.


By the way - We had UPS come to the warehouse and SHOW us how to pack the items and guess what - the item broke. UPS eventually refused to ship our glass beakers, so the owner went to plastic ones. I think it is funny that you are going to tell me what I recall, I forgot you were party to the events 25 years ago. :confused:
 
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