Opinion about knives lost during shipping

Almost all Canada Post packages carry standard CAD$100 coverage. Some products (Light Packet Air?) do not.

I think Trackable Packet can only be insured for $100 max. All others can be insured to a maximum of CAD$1000. Insurance is sold in $100 increments at approx. $2 per $100 coverage.

Insurance is unavailable to some countries where Tracking/Proof of Delivery are not provided.

I qualified my post above to indicate that I was referring to sending items through USPS Priority Mail.

Ray
 
It< the sellers responsibility. If I order anything from amazon and it does not arrive in a timely manner the refund the money. Unless the seller can show that it has been delivered it's the sellers responsibility. I also don't insure packages under $750.00. If you look at how often a package gets lost you will see that you come out ahead monetarily if you don't insure. I never charge the buyer for insurance. The insurance is of no benifit to the buyer, if I bought something and it got lost on the way why would I care if the seller got paid I'm not his partner. I only care that I don't have to pay for something I never got. It's funny how our opinions are different when we are sitting on opposite sides of the fence.
 
You as the seller are responsible for shipping and delivery......My understanding is there is no other alternative. Period. End-of-story. If it doesn't arrive.....you eat the cost of refunding the buyers money.

If this is the wrong section, please feel free to move this thread.

Question. Who is responsible for a lost knife during shipping, the buyer or seller? Or if there isn't a clearcut answer, is there a standard practice that people use?

Details:

This was a domestic transaction, within the same state via USPS Priority with no additional insurance purchased.
The tracking status is stuck on "In transit" since December 20th, with no updates since then.
Lost package search has been filed on usps.com with no results or messages from them.

It surely sucks for both parties, but I'm wondering how you guys have handled this type of situation. In nearly 1k shipping transactions, this is a first so I've never put much thought into this scenario.

Anyone have a similar situation? How did you handle it? In our case, both parties are calm about it, but just want to get it settled. There is still a possibility I guess that it could be lost and still show up since it hasn't been THAT long, but how long is reasonable to wait?

I don't like purchasing insurance because IMO it puts a target on the package for thieves. As the seller, i don't mind eating the entire loss...but I just want to make sure it's the most fair way to go about it.

Thanks guys!
 
You as the seller are responsible for shipping and delivery......My understanding is there is no other alternative. Period. End-of-story. If it doesn't arrive.....you eat the cost of refunding the buyers money.

Your statement is over broad. The parties to the sale can agree otherwise. In the absence of such an agreement, you are correct.
 
I guess I'd be curious how many buyers are willing to agree to something outside of the protection Paypal provides?? Should probably clarify....not questioning your premise....I can see where my statement was a bit over-broad. My question revolves around how many buyers would willing accept less protection than they would normally get......for free?? Also have a hard time believing that many.....if any....sellers on this forum would put the onus on the buyer. Just seems outside the norm for the good people here.

Your statement is over broad. The parties to the sale can agree otherwise. In the absence of such an agreement, you are correct.
 
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This guy:




And this guy:



Seem to think differently than literally everyone else in this thread and most reputable businesses and paypal. Oh well.

What does the direction of the herd have to do with anything? Should I round up a group of forum member's that don't agree with you? Then what - draw straws?

Not everyone uses PayPal and the OP didn't mention PayPal in his initial post. But don't let the facts get in the way of anything.

A good portion of the transactions on the sale forum can't even get past complying with the first 2 paragraphs of Selling and Accepting Payment section of the PPUA.

Just today I see a post with this: if you want insurance its on you.. To say there is a lack of knowledge on the forum as to what the buyer's and seller's duties to one another are is an understatement. Even fewer understand their duties to one another as PayPal has defined them.

From the PPUA: If the seller presents evidence that they delivered the goods to your address, PayPal may find in favor of the seller for an Item Not Received claim even if you did not receive the goods. Here PayPal is disclosing that in some instances, they will side will the Seller despite the Buyer claiming the item did not arrive. Uh oh. So they seem to be acknowledging there are times when the seller will not be required to reimburse the buyer, even if the buyer does not have possession of the item. And this does happen. There have been threads of seller's indicating the item is showing delivered per the USPS and the package is nowhere to be found per the buyer. Why would PayPal do this? As they recognize that the title to the item has reverted to the buyer, and the risk of loss passed to the buyer. This concept goes back to when the Atocha sank in the Atlantic ocean. Yeah that was 1622. The seller can't control what he has given up actual or constructive control over. Even PayPal drew a line in the sand on this.

BTW - Any knife with a sale price of $750 or more PP requires a signature for the seller to prove delivery. USPS insurance requires signature when insurance hits $500.

So how does one make sure that as seller, they aren't tarred and feathered by the masses because despite the seller having poof of delivery, the buyer's claim of item not received is absolute and exists in perpetuity or until the sun burns out, whichever event occurs later? Remember this is despite the PPUA stating they will NOT side with the buyer on this one. Buy insurance from the USPS. But not so fast... The USPS won't pay on an insurance claim when the package shows as delivered. An one more time the PPUA staes they will NOT side with the buyer on this one. I believe this exact scenario happened to the Gentleman from USA Made Blades. Delivery notification was obtained, but buyer claimed no delivery. He posted a thread about the issue. I'll look for it.

I personally insure the package for the amount of loss the buyer will want to recover from me should the package not arrive.
 
"I guess I'd be curious how many buyers are willing to agree to something outside of the protection Paypal provides?"

Buyers regularly pay "Gift" or "Friends and Family," depriving themselves of PP protection and assisting in defrauding PayPal.
 
That is a good point....hadn't considered that. So I guess there is a distinction again between those who interact here and those who buy from a professional seller. I'm not aware of any way you can use friends and family to purchase from a large seller.....or am I wrong??

"I guess I'd be curious how many buyers are willing to agree to something outside of the protection Paypal provides?"

Buyers regularly pay "Gift" or "Friends and Family," depriving themselves of PP protection and assisting in defrauding PayPal.
 
What does the direction of the herd have to do with anything? Should I round up a group of forum member's that don't agree with you? Then what - draw straws?

Not everyone uses PayPal and the OP didn't mention PayPal in his initial post. But don't let the facts get in the way of anything.

A good portion of the transactions on the sale forum can't even get past complying with the first 2 paragraphs of Selling and Accepting Payment section of the PPUA.

Just today I see a post with this: if you want insurance its on you.. To say there is a lack of knowledge on the forum as to what the buyer's and seller's duties to one another are is an understatement. Even fewer understand their duties to one another as PayPal has defined them.

From the PPUA: If the seller presents evidence that they delivered the goods to your address, PayPal may find in favor of the seller for an Item Not Received claim even if you did not receive the goods. Here PayPal is disclosing that in some instances, they will side will the Seller despite the Buyer claiming the item did not arrive. Uh oh. So they seem to be acknowledging there are times when the seller will not be required to reimburse the buyer, even if the buyer does not have possession of the item. And this does happen. There have been threads of seller's indicating the item is showing delivered per the USPS and the package is nowhere to be found per the buyer. Why would PayPal do this? As they recognize that the title to the item has reverted to the buyer, and the risk of loss passed to the buyer. This concept goes back to when the Atocha sank in the Atlantic ocean. Yeah that was 1622. The seller can't control what he has given up actual or constructive control over. Even PayPal drew a line in the sand on this.

BTW - Any knife with a sale price of $750 or more PP requires a signature for the seller to prove delivery. USPS insurance requires signature when insurance hits $500.

So how does one make sure that as seller, they aren't tarred and feathered by the masses because despite the seller having poof of delivery, the buyer's claim of item not received is absolute and exists in perpetuity or until the sun burns out, whichever event occurs later? Remember this is despite the PPUA stating they will NOT side with the buyer on this one. Buy insurance from the USPS. But not so fast... The USPS won't pay on an insurance claim when the package shows as delivered. An one more time the PPUA staes they will NOT side with the buyer on this one. I believe this exact scenario happened to the Gentleman from USA Made Blades. Delivery notification was obtained, but buyer claimed no delivery. He posted a thread about the issue. I'll look for it.

I personally insure the package for the amount of loss the buyer will want to recover from me should the package not arrive.

Totally agree with what's in blue.


All due respect, pretty much everything that is after the blue is a different scenario. If the seller has proof of delivery then it is "not lost during shipping".

I think that topic is worthy of it's own thread.
 
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I would agree to a point. We're still talking about apples and oranges to a certain extent. When dealing with on-line retailers, you abide by their stated policies.....and the policies that apply to your form of payment....whatever that is. On Bladeforums, the normal payment.....and that obviously isn't always....is Paypal. I would say it all comes back to knowledge.....of your retailer/seller.....of the policies for returns(if any).....of the protections from your method of purchase.......and your knowledge of the product you are purchasing. The more you know of all these things.....the less room for error or problems on the back-end.


Totally agree with what's in blue.


All due respect, pretty much everything that is after the blue is a different scenario. If the seller has proof of delivery then it is "not lost during shipping".

I think that topic is worthy of it's own thread.
 
Didn't I read that USPS [?} regards delivery to the destination ZIP Code area as "delivery"?

Lately, my Postal Carrier dumps packages out on my driveway if they don't fit the rural mailbox. Any Tom,. Dick, or Harriet can pick them off. (And I told the Supervisor three times that I was NOT complaining and just wanted to know what I needed to do to get the packages delivered up the drive at my house, or thereabouts. Did I need a larger box or container by my box. Did I need to come to the PO?
 
When you purchase a shipping label that is thenperson who buys the insurance and its to ensure "their" package gets to the customer. The customer bought the knife. They had absolutely nothing to do with the purchase of the shipping and wouldnt be able to file the insurance claim anyways as they didnt buy the shipping or have that receipt. The fact that anyone would try to pass this responsibility onto the buyer makes me question their ethics and mine arent very good. A seller who ships high end knives and can spend a grand shouldnt be cheap when protecting that investent and if they do it should be at their own risk. I see most makers saying the price is shipped and insured. Most will assume for the full paid value of a product. If the seller knows they are charging collector prices and only insuring for msrp imho thats a scam on their part waiting to happen. Did the buyer come to your house, pack the knife and bring it to your post office and ship it to themselves? No? Then they are not responsible.
 
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What does the direction of the herd have to do with anything? Should I round up a group of forum member's that don't agree with you? Then what - draw straws?

Not everyone uses PayPal and the OP didn't mention PayPal in his initial post. But don't let the facts get in the way of anything.

A good portion of the transactions on the sale forum can't even get past complying with the first 2 paragraphs of Selling and Accepting Payment section of the PPUA.

Just today I see a post with this: if you want insurance its on you.. To say there is a lack of knowledge on the forum as to what the buyer's and seller's duties to one another are is an understatement. Even fewer understand their duties to one another as PayPal has defined them.

From the PPUA: If the seller presents evidence that they delivered the goods to your address, PayPal may find in favor of the seller for an Item Not Received claim even if you did not receive the goods. Here PayPal is disclosing that in some instances, they will side will the Seller despite the Buyer claiming the item did not arrive. Uh oh. So they seem to be acknowledging there are times when the seller will not be required to reimburse the buyer, even if the buyer does not have possession of the item. And this does happen. There have been threads of seller's indicating the item is showing delivered per the USPS and the package is nowhere to be found per the buyer. Why would PayPal do this? As they recognize that the title to the item has reverted to the buyer, and the risk of loss passed to the buyer. This concept goes back to when the Atocha sank in the Atlantic ocean. Yeah that was 1622. The seller can't control what he has given up actual or constructive control over. Even PayPal drew a line in the sand on this.

BTW - Any knife with a sale price of $750 or more PP requires a signature for the seller to prove delivery. USPS insurance requires signature when insurance hits $500.

So how does one make sure that as seller, they aren't tarred and feathered by the masses because despite the seller having poof of delivery, the buyer's claim of item not received is absolute and exists in perpetuity or until the sun burns out, whichever event occurs later? Remember this is despite the PPUA stating they will NOT side with the buyer on this one. Buy insurance from the USPS. But not so fast... The USPS won't pay on an insurance claim when the package shows as delivered. An one more time the PPUA staes they will NOT side with the buyer on this one. I believe this exact scenario happened to the Gentleman from USA Made Blades. Delivery notification was obtained, but buyer claimed no delivery. He posted a thread about the issue. I'll look for it.

I personally insure the package for the amount of loss the buyer will want to recover from me should the package not arrive.

Please take notice that everyone commenting is clear on this issue, save for you and the other guy.

Insurance is to protect the seller. Period.
 
What does the direction of the herd have to do with anything? Should I round up a group of forum member's that don't agree with you? Then what - draw straws?

Not everyone uses PayPal and the OP didn't mention PayPal in his initial post. But don't let the facts get in the way of anything.

A good portion of the transactions on the sale forum can't even get past complying with the first 2 paragraphs of Selling and Accepting Payment section of the PPUA.

Just today I see a post with this: if you want insurance its on you.. To say there is a lack of knowledge on the forum as to what the buyer's and seller's duties to one another are is an understatement. Even fewer understand their duties to one another as PayPal has defined them.

From the PPUA: If the seller presents evidence that they delivered the goods to your address, PayPal may find in favor of the seller for an Item Not Received claim even if you did not receive the goods. Here PayPal is disclosing that in some instances, they will side will the Seller despite the Buyer claiming the item did not arrive. Uh oh. So they seem to be acknowledging there are times when the seller will not be required to reimburse the buyer, even if the buyer does not have possession of the item. And this does happen. There have been threads of seller's indicating the item is showing delivered per the USPS and the package is nowhere to be found per the buyer. Why would PayPal do this? As they recognize that the title to the item has reverted to the buyer, and the risk of loss passed to the buyer. This concept goes back to when the Atocha sank in the Atlantic ocean. Yeah that was 1622. The seller can't control what he has given up actual or constructive control over. Even PayPal drew a line in the sand on this.

BTW - Any knife with a sale price of $750 or more PP requires a signature for the seller to prove delivery. USPS insurance requires signature when insurance hits $500.

So how does one make sure that as seller, they aren't tarred and feathered by the masses because despite the seller having poof of delivery, the buyer's claim of item not received is absolute and exists in perpetuity or until the sun burns out, whichever event occurs later? Remember this is despite the PPUA stating they will NOT side with the buyer on this one. Buy insurance from the USPS. But not so fast... The USPS won't pay on an insurance claim when the package shows as delivered. An one more time the PPUA staes they will NOT side with the buyer on this one. I believe this exact scenario happened to the Gentleman from USA Made Blades. Delivery notification was obtained, but buyer claimed no delivery. He posted a thread about the issue. I'll look for it.

I personally insure the package for the amount of loss the buyer will want to recover from me should the package not arrive.

Just because things get stickier the higher the insured price goes that doesnt mean the seller gets to wash their hands of the responsibility of getting the product to the buyer. If the buyer never receives the product the sale was never officially completed despite any excuses, denials or feet stomping. Anyyone who cant take that risk shouldnt be shipping.
 
As I've said it before, once I receive payment for the knife it now belongs to you. I'm merely the custodian, and have the responsibility to deliver your property safely to you, or give you your money back. I insure the package so that I don't wind up eating the cost if the post office doesn't get it to you.
 
As I've said it before, once I receive payment for the knife it now belongs to you. I'm merely the custodian, and have the responsibility to deliver your property safely to you, or give you your money back. I insure the package so that I don't wind up eating the cost if the post office doesn't get it to you.

This ^^^ I have buyers who comment my fast shipping, typically within hours, and it is because I do not want any more liability on my end once it is paid for, i.e. losing the knife or dropping it and causing damage. I always go through my stash and find the knife prior to listing it so I have it in hand and ready to ship at a moments notice.

I did a trade with a member that showed delivered but I never got it and a week or more later he got the package back, albeit in very rough condition so delivery confirmation is not always reliable. I have no idea who received the package and sent it back to the sender (if anyone did actually get it) but it was missing a small portion of the traded items and the other party made it right so "no harm no foul" but I was pretty nervous for a while.
 
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In every case the seller has asked me to pay FF, I will select goods and services and add the #% to the total, as someone said above why would you volontaraly give away your protection, not to mention help defraud PP of their policy? As the buyer I tell everyone I am sending with insurance, I have had a couple peope bring up the "it makes it more of a target claim", frankly I dont know if thats true or not, I suppose it boils down to oppertunity, and if a person with low moral character gets the oppertunity to snatch a packacge, I think hes going to do it with or without insurance sticker. The insurance in this senario is for MY protection as the seller ALONE. If anyone does not allow me to pay withG&S or ship with insurance, I dont take the risk of doing buisness with that person. It boils down to personal choices people
 
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