Opinion about knives lost during shipping

The UCC has changed since its initial adoption by the states. Some UCC rules apply only to "merchants" or transactions "between merchants." Some apply to non-merchants and transactions between a "merchant" and a "consumer." Sometimes, as in the case of passage of risk of loss, the "merchant" is held to s different standard than a "consumer." It has been some years since one could say that the UCC applies only to merchants.

§ 2-509. Risk of Loss in the Absence of Breach.

(1) Where the contract requires or authorizes the seller to ship the goods by carrier

(a) if it does not require him to deliver them at a particular destination [that is, to a particular address], the risk of loss passes to the buyer when the goods are duly delivered to the carrier ....; but

(b) if it does require him to deliver them at a particular destination [address] and the goods are there duly tendered while in the possession of the carrier, the risk of loss passes to the buyer when the goods are there [at the agreed address] duly so tendered as to enable the buyer to take delivery.

...

(3) In any case not within subsection (1) or (2), the risk of loss passes to the buyer on his receipt of the goods if the seller is a merchant; otherwise [if the seller is not a "merchant"] the risk passes to the buyer on tender [offer] of delivery.

(4) The provisions of this section are subject to contrary agreement of the parties and to the provisions of this Article on sale on approval (Section 2-327) and on effect of breach on risk of loss (Section 2-510).
...
§ 2-103
(1) "Buyer" means a person who buys or contracts to buy goods.
...
(3) "Receipt" of goods means taking physical possession of them.

(4) "Seller" means a person who sells or contracts to sell goods.

(5) "Merchant" means a person who deals in goods of the kind or otherwise by the person's occupation holds the person [himself or itself] out as having knowledge or skill peculiar to the practices or goods involved in the transaction or to whom such knowledge or skill [that is, arguably anyone who regularly makes and sells knives] or regularly sells knives as a business or claims special knowledge of knives and knife-making is a "merchant"]
....

c) "Consumer" means an individual who buys or contracts to buy goods that, at the time of contracting, are intended by the individual to be used primarily for personal, family, or household purposes.

(d) "Consumer contract" means a contract between a merchant seller and a consumer.

OFFICIAL COMMENT
The underlying theory of this rule is that a merchant who is to make physical delivery at his own place continues meanwhile to control the goods and can be expected to insure his interest in them. The buyer, on the other hand, has no control of the goods and it is extremely unlikely that he will carry insurance on goods not yet in his possession.
 
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Only thing the seller can do, is charge for insurance up front. Same as charging for shipping, just roll it all into one price if you want to pass the cost on to the buyer.

Shipping, Insurance, and PayPal fees are part of the cost of sales (which also includes safe and secure packaging so that the item(s) arrives undamaged).

Math is easy (for most of us). An "All-in" price is the way to go. Additions can be made for International Shipping, if needed.
 
I have had two insurance claims via the USPS. One time a USPS money order was used to show the value of the item. The other time I had a friend who ran a brick and mortar knife store send in an affidavit stating the value of the lost knife. They paid off both times. Save all the paperwork though. Any excuse to not pay and they will use it. No receipt, no payback.
 
Help me, Thomas (or someone else). What does that all boil down to in this instance?

I believe it is what most of us have been saying all along. Also, read the fine print on shipping terms. With paypal goods, most of the debate in this thread is completely moot. Paypal sees it as the onus is on the seller.

And.....This is why as a buyer always pay with paypal goods. Never ever deal with someone who asks for gift or who thinks the insurance is on the buyer. That is BS and is a huge red flag. As a seller, use insurance if you can't afford to lose the money and/or item. Package well. And last, always search a transaction partner's name here before you deal with someone. For example, if you search "colubrid" in the main GB&U subforum, this thread is at the top of the list. Then you can read the absolute nonsense he has posted on this subject and decide you had better not deal with him.
 
FOB under the Incoterms only pertains to commercial sales whether they be domestic or international as I read it.

Actually there is a little more nuance there - "commercial" is used to describe a sale between "merchants" and the definition of merchants has been construed to cover parties that are knowledgeable in a commerce of specific goods. A sale of a car between private citizens is not covered by the UCC, excluding other issues like odometer tampering.

But someone with a web storefront OR someone using the PayPal goods and services portal to generate invoices, collect payments, send notification of shipping, issue refunds, etc., would be considered a merchant and covered by the UCC.
 
Seev - Don't have to be party to the specific events of 25 years ago - just stated what UPS would normally do in a situation like that and you confirmed they did. My apologies if I offended you in any way with my comments.

Perhaps I should have been more clear about the whole UCC and FOB thing; but my point is this - How many companies would tell a customer that they(customer) would be responsible for ordered items if damage or loss occurs in transit. Yes, none.
Seems like an expected and common practice that the seller is responsible for getting the item to the buyer. You are correct that in some circles - business to business (as you described the Italy machines) is where those terms and negotiations come into play.
They just don't in our little world here or even when we (consumers) buy anything on-line. If you look at this thread, there is only one party who doesn't think the seller is responsible; everyone else does.

Question: Are you saying that if you sold me a knife here; that you would not take responsibility if it get's lost in transit? Would you expect me to eat the loss? Thanks

No offense Gaston, these are great discussions we are having.

I believe the seller is obligated to the buyer on a number of fronts, but where does his liability end? What if the package was sitting on the mail truck, in the parking lot of the apartment where the buyer lived, and the postman is held up at gunpoint and all his packages are stolen. Further assume the buyer waived the extra cost of insurance above the $50 USPS flat-rate small box included insurance. That is the liability of the seller?

To answer your question I would adjust my sales price to cover the full value of the knife I sold you, so if it was lost in transit I would make a claim and refund you from that claim. But if you waived the extra cost of insurance, for whatever reason, I have no recourse against the shipper so why should I cover your risk?

Somewhere above a poster claimed that the buyer eats the loss always. I don't subscribe to that philosophy, but if you want me to ship something in a way that brings unreasonable risk to your side of the transaction, I can't mitigate that risk and it is yours to bear. Why would someone waive extra insurance? People have openly stated that they pass on extra insurance as it brings added attention to the package and puts a "steal me" flag on it.
 
I'm with this guy!

:D

I can admit that my analogies and previous assumptions MAY have been slightly off... ;) As I say, I'm still not a lawyer, and I'm sure there are all kinds of nuances, loopholes, exceptions, etc... when it comes to various methods and styles of transactions, whether public, private, web based, through a third party payment method, etc....

Of all that, I can't say much one way or the other. Personally, however, I'm still going to do my personal best to make sure my customers get what they pay for, within reason, and when it comes to shipping knives and tools that I make, I assume the responsibility of paypal fees, shipping insurance, and ultimate replacement/risk of loss IF necessary, at LEAST as far as domestic transactions are concerned. So far, that's worked out relatively painlessly for me.
 
So we are clear here folks, I always insure, at my own cost, the knife I sell. It is peace-of-mind for me. We have enough going on with the feedback system that I want to make sure all parties are happy in the end. I'd never knowingly blow off a buyer in the event of a package loss. I plan for that risk with cheap insurance from the USPS. :). It is good to hear from some above that the claims process is fairly painless.

I am not a lawyer, I'm a CPA. Unless you are a member of your State bar, you shouldn't claim to be "lawyering".

I think the forum does a very good job of governing ourselves. I have been fortunate to have all positive feedback scores, and I've never been in a transaction where I was eligible to leave negative feedback.
 
I believe the seller is obligated to the buyer on a number of fronts, but where does his liability end? What if the package was sitting on the mail truck, in the parking lot of the apartment where the buyer lived, and the postman is held up at gunpoint and all his packages are stolen. Further assume the buyer waived the extra cost of insurance above the $50 USPS flat-rate small box included insurance. That is the liability of the seller?

Yes. If you use paypal the way it is intended. That is how paypal will see it. Insurance is for the seller, not the buyer. The buyer cannot waive insurance. It is not his/her choice.
 
Yes. If you use paypal the way it is intended. That is how paypal will see it. Insurance is for the seller, not the buyer. The buyer cannot waive insurance. It is not his/her choice.

How can it be any other way? If I, as the seller, choose to ship a $100.00 or an $800.00 knife without insuring full value AND that knife is lost in transit - the buyer receives NOTHING for his/her $$s and tough luck Ray (seller) your loss too. The seller reimburses the buyer and takes the hit. Next time I - the seller - will not be so casual about shipping without insurance. Just sayin'.



Ray
 
How can it be any other way? If I, as the seller, choose to ship a $100.00 or an $800.00 knife without insuring full value AND that knife is lost in transit - the buyer receives NOTHING for his/her $$s and tough luck Ray (seller) your loss too. The seller reimburses the buyer and takes the hit. Next time I - the seller - will not be so casual about shipping without insurance. Just sayin'.



Ray

This guy:

Extra fees for insurance are the responsibility of the buyer.


I am not in agreement with some posters here saying the seller being responsible. If the knife was shipped and tracking is accurate the buyer is at loss. It is up to the buyer to pay "extra insurance" (beyond the $50 priority insurance) and not the seller. It is also up to the seller to REQUEST to pay extra for insurance. Otherwise it is assumed the buyer takes the risk.

If someone buys a $1000. knife from me i am not paying for insurance $1000. Nor am I calculating it into the price of the knife.


And this guy:

I believe the seller is obligated to the buyer on a number of fronts, but where does his liability end? What if the package was sitting on the mail truck, in the parking lot of the apartment where the buyer lived, and the postman is held up at gunpoint and all his packages are stolen. Further assume the buyer waived the extra cost of insurance above the $50 USPS flat-rate small box included insurance. That is the liability of the seller?

Seem to think differently than literally everyone else in this thread and most reputable businesses and paypal. Oh well.
 
I am not a vendor or knife maker. This is a hobby. As I have been shipping in several "other" hobbies (besides knives). The standard is when the item is accepted by the shipper and tracking is provided the item becomes the buyer has completed.

For business owners, vendors, knife maker or knife brokers a different rule applies and if the knife is lost the business owner either replaces the item or gives a refund.

I have been buying and selling knives here longer than most people. I can tell you amongst most of the long term knife guys on here this is sort of a known thing that unless the buyer asks for extra insurance then the knife will be fully insured.

Now any seller can always fully pay the buyer for a knife they sent them if it gets lost. That is up to them. But from experience and buying and selling a lot with other members here I can tell you unless you want to have extra insurance on a knife you should ask the seller to add the extra amount for full insurance. It is not included into the price of a knife.


This is sorta a double edge sword issue. Most experienced sellers know what I am saying is true but don't want to post on this thread .. Kinda like the Paypal Net vs Friends and Family thing.

Huh. Never "knew" that...

I've been here almost as long as you and what I understand is simple...it is the Seller's responsibility to make sure the Buyer gets the item purchased, or their money back. Period. Meaning that if I don't feel like buying insurance, I'd better have the cash or another item to make it right if I'm the Seller, and the item shipped doesn't get received.

Chalk me up as another who won't do a deal with you now, knowing how you like to handle your sales. Because what I remember a decade ago is that folks didn't quibble over a few dollars for insurance, they didn't ship knives in document envelopes, they didn't ask for F&F, they securely packaged their items for shipping in appropriate boxes, they double checked mailing addresses, and they put the same care for their hobby into the deals they entered.

...But maybe I'm just old school...
 
craytab am I saying something different than you are? OR did I just say it badly? OR do I misunderstand your quoting me in the post above?

I completely believe that it is ABSOLUTELY THE SELLER'S RESPONSIBILITY TO INSURE. Tough luck to the seller if he/she doesn't. In any case the buyer either gets the knife ordered or ALL the money back that he/she in good faith paid to the seller for the undelivered goods.

How can it be any other way?




Ray
 
craytab am I saying something different than you are? OR did I just say it badly? OR do I misunderstand your quoting me in the post above?

I completely believe that it is ABSOLUTELY THE SELLER'S RESPONSIBILITY TO INSURE. Tough luck to the seller if he/she doesn't. In any case the buyer either gets the knife ordered or ALL the money back that he/she in good faith paid to the seller for the undelivered goods.

How can it be any other way?




Ray

We are agreeing. I was merely pointing out the two here who disagree with the rest of us. Folks should take note.
 
There's something very odd going on in Chicago....

This is the 3rd knife I've had held up there in transit for over 3 weeks each.

Recently did a trade with a very decent forumite, he is in the US I'm in Finland. My knife to him took a while but it got there but still no sign of his knife to me, still stuck in transit in Chicago from Boxing Day 26th Dec. This is getting ridiculous.
 
Help me, Thomas (or someone else). What does that all boil down to in this instance?

As many have said, and given no evidence of a risk-shifting agreement:

Seller eats it, sadly. Always buy insurance.

The good news is USPS may well find it. I shipped a knife on 12/10 that was lost for almost a month. Tracking suddenly kicked in and it was delivered just a few days ago. Apparently December is not a great time to rely on USPS.

Good luck!
 
There's something very odd going on in Chicago....

This is the 3rd knife I've had held up there in transit for over 3 weeks each.

Recently did a trade with a very decent forumite, he is in the US I'm in Finland. My knife to him took a while but it got there but still no sign of his knife to me, still stuck in transit in Chicago from Boxing Day 26th Dec. This is getting ridiculous.

And I recently had a package supposedly leave the Chicago Metro Hub three different times over several days. Not that it was supposed to be there. It had been misdirected to Chicago - 350 miles the wrong way from its Cleveland area destination. Or USPS Tracking is just a fairy story. You pay your money but you do not get the make your choice.
 
I had almost the exact experience. So strange I took a screen shot of the tracking just in case...package finally arrived on 12-23...
37b79d90353fc0cb7bd5fce871798f6f.png
 
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