OT/ Glock .45?

PeterPHWS said:
Some interesting issues being considered in these last few posts ... I can personally advocate the benefit of a Shotgun for a first response defensive weapon ... the guy in the link who worked in the morgue was right when he said nothing compares for close quarter effectiveness ... much better than any pistol or any 5.56mm or .308 up close and should be an obvious choice for a house gun for the OP if that was his reason for considering a glock.

The debate on all the other stuff is less clear in my experience ... if I was in the States and had a choice of avilable claibres you have ... I would probably go for a 10mm with armour defeating rounds mixed with semi-hollowpoints for a vehicle. I have shot the .45 and no doubt it will work on people but it is'nt very good on people in vehicles or if you are in the vehicle and the opposition is outside - shooting through the vehicle. Shooting through the door when the opposition is right outside the door means you benefit greatly by speed/suprise/less movement by doing so. An ability to have something which works through a car door is pretty important for a pistol in my experience if carried anywhere car jacking is an issue. Raising the pistol to shoot through the glass is the sort of delay that gets you shot.

For comps I shoot 9mm - I used to use this as well for personal defense because I had to - but now I have a choice I prefer a 10mm.
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Peter, I fully agree concerning the shotgun as being the best as a home defense weapon for many reasons, one being the lack of over penetration. Any high power rifle caliber like 308 or the like is just to powerful for home defense. The 556 is an excellent defense round for the home if you can get past the violent flash and noise. As for the 10mm, I disagree. The 10mm is a has been round. It is completely unnecessary when compared to it's alternatives. In the Glock platform the 21 has two less rounds and in +p versions is nearly the equal in energy and has more momentum. The 40sw is a great round that can perform just as well in a smaller platform. The 45, 40 and 9mm ammo can be purchased anywhere fairly economically, 10mm cannot. Any level 3 vest will defeat 10mm just as it will, 45, 40 and 9mm. Armor piercing rounds in any of these calibers will defeat a vest without plates. Having said that the extra weight of the 10mm and 45 bullets imparts much more force to the vest wearer and will be more painful. Kinda like wearing a vest with armor plating to defeat large calibers and getting hit by a 12 gage slug. You are still going down. The 45 is a great round and has always been. I still prefer it to the 9mm and always will. I do think that the 9mm has come a long way with todays ammo and is fully capable of any defensive use that all the other major defense calibers are capable of.

Today, I would say the best compromise is the 40. But I would feel fine carrying a 9mm and would prefer a 45. So it is truly what is comfortable to you. The 45 and 9mm both have nicer recoil than the 40 and 10mm. The 40 is a very sharp recoil that causes problems for weak wristed shooters. The 10mm is much worse.
 
While we're on the topic of .45acp and home defense rounds. My friend's HD gun is a Beretta CX4 in 9mm. I think with bonded 45, this would be a great HD gun. Easy to attach lights and fore grips, optics, and a bit longer of a barrel. Just a thought.

Don't buy one now though because of the OMG ERRTHANG GON BE BANNINATED hype.
 
Turbo Tension said:
While we're on the topic of .45acp and home defense rounds. My friend's HD gun is a Beretta CX4 in 9mm. I think with bonded 45, this would be a great HD gun. Easy to attach lights and fore grips, optics, and a bit longer of a barrel. Just a thought.

Don't buy one now though because of the OMG ERRTHANG GON BE BANNINATED hype.
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unless the hype is reality then you are screwed. I still have original black talon 45's ;)
 
Cobalt said:
unless the hype is reality then you are screwed. I still have original black talon 45's ;)
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I have a couple boxes of those I got for the going rate of Ranger RST I got at a gun show years ago. Not sure what they're worth these days, but I'm pretty sure a bonded JHP Golden Sabre would be just as, if not more, effective.
 
Turbo Tension said:
I have a couple boxes of those I got for the going rate of Ranger RST I got at a gun show years ago. Not sure what they're worth these days, but I'm pretty sure a bonded JHP Golden Sabre would be just as, if not more, effective.
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Actually, the golden sabre is probably the exact same thing.
 
I shot the 30S on Monday, surprisingly, it didn't do much for me


The 20 and 29 were fun though
 
Lycosa said:
Mark- Eventually, you will come over. Do it now. Why wait?
:)
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Cause I still have standards and I don't have a belt sander to take those stupid finger ridges off the frame

And cause they still look like something I left in the toilet about half an hour ago


I said I was surprised about the 10mm, that's the best thing I've said about them in a long time
 
Cobalt said:
Actually, the golden sabre is probably the exact same thing.
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Golden Sabre's are a bit older technologically, but a tried and true bullet design. There are so many good choices today in bullets... the Winchester Ranger line is excellent, as is the Federal HST and Speer Gold Dot. Interestingly, Federal will begin making their HST available to the public this year with a 'civilian' line of ammo using the bullet. Previously, it's been available only to LEO... and could only be found in short supplies online and at gun shows.

Feinstein will announce her great gun ban today. If you don't have ammo already... you might be screwed pretty soon as demand will greatly (already has) exceed supply. Grab what you can now, fellas!

.
 
kdstrick said:
Golden Sabre's are a bit older technologically, but a tried and true bullet design. There are so many good choices today in bullets... the Winchester Ranger line is excellent, as is the Federal HST and Speer Gold Dot. Interestingly, Federal will begin making their HST available to the public this year with a 'civilian' line of ammo using the bullet. Previously, it's been available only to LEO... and could only be found in short supplies online and at gun shows.

Feinstein will announce her great gun ban today. If you don't have ammo already... you might be screwed pretty soon as demand will greatly (already has) exceed supply. Grab what you can now, fellas!

.
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Trade offer: Black Talon 45 bullets for an SHBM ;)
 
Cobalt said:
unless the hype is reality then you are screwed. I still have original black talon 45's ;)
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i think I have an old box of those squirreled away somewhere. Also a box of old GECO BAT 9mm. Mas Ayoob had good things to say about them ... oh, about 20 years ago.
 
Excerpted from The Firing Line forums :

"Black Talon... aka... Ranger SXT. They just changed the name and removed the black coating that only reduced barrel wear."

"Black Talons are only popular due to being discontinued by Winchester, after the media bombarded the airwaves with ridiculous myths about them. People still seem to believe that they are some kind of magical, ultra deadly, super killer round.

If you like Black Talons, buy a box of SXT(Same Xact Thing) at half the price. Or, in my opinion, your money would be better spent on more modern loadings like the Winchester Ranger T, Federal HST, CorBon DPX, or Winchester Supreme Elite handgun ammo. These are newer designs and offer superior expansion and penetration compared to the Black Talons. All of these loadings are also bonded (except the DPX, which is a solid copper bullet).

Last but not least, I am not saying that the Black Talon is a bad round. It is perfectly capable of killing. I'm just saying, don't fall for all of the myths that still float around on the internet about the Black Talon. It's BS."

Myth no more......;)
 
Black talon is the ranger sxt and they are excellent bullets but certainly nothing magical about them. They are cool looking though
 
^^^^^^^^^You can say that again... the only thing magical about ANY bullet is proper placement.

Someone posted this link here on BF... If accurate, it really questions a lot about what most of us gun guys 'know' about the effectiveness of any given caliber. In short, the study found that all calibers are roughly equal in effectiveness and most took two shots to "incapacitate" the perp. Personally, I feel this study illustrates the importance of bullet placement. A .22 placed properly, has the same result as a shotgun... a .22 placed poorly might just get you killed.

Enjoy the link... http://cheaperthandirt.com/blog/?p=...um=Email&utm_campaign=Chronicle+Vol+1+Issue+1
 
When I think of the differences between pistol calibers, I mostly take into consideration whether or not you can rely upon ADEQUATE penetration even when shooting through intermediate barriers like glass, wallboard, 2 x 4's, sheet metal. THIS is where the important differences are between calibers, because all calibers must have adequate penetration to incapacitate....

FBI Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness
http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

22 Long Rifle is quite lethal and has more deaths attributed to it each year than any other caliber in the US. What it lacks is intermediate barrier penetration, which the 45 ACP also happens to be not so good at. This is why 40 S&W has become a staple of LEO carry, because they expect to have to shoot through glass, sheet metal, etc...... and the 40 S&W has proven to work better in this application than 9mm, 45 ACP, .357 SIG and 45 GAP.
 
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