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PayPal F&F only ... REALLY???

Discussion in 'FEEDBACK: The Good, The Bad, The Ugly!' started by JJ_Colt45, Nov 27, 2018.

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  1. Peter Hartwig

    Peter Hartwig Gold Member Gold Member

    Feb 29, 2008
    It isn't the multiple forms of payment. I accept USPS money orders or PP G&S, but no one uses the money orders(really should drop that) if I take PP G&S . The problem is that people don't understand that if I take G&S I will pay the fees. I have people PM me for the final price and people send me the fees. Neither are that hard to correct, but I don't want someone trying to decide if they will pay $515(aprox) for a knife when I am only asking $500.
    Granted I have no problem understanding G&S should have the fees covered, but I have run into numerous people that don't. This all stems from those that are adding on the fees causing the confusion.
    But TYD would work I believe
    steff27, JJ_Colt45 and Odog27 like this.
  2. madcap_magician

    madcap_magician Gold Member Gold Member

    Feb 27, 2005
    What it really comes down to is that A) F&F should not be an option for sales transactions on Bladeforums and B) List price should be the all-inclusive price that the buyer sends via G&S. The only exception should be negotiable international shipping.
  3. Bmgillum

    Bmgillum Platinum Member Platinum Member

    Nov 8, 2016
    Like so many others, I will not buy if asked for F&F or Net...I never, ever, send a deposit either and have never been asked for one by a reputable maker...I did, recently, ask a maker to use a certain Damascus and he requested that I purchase the billet and send it to him...given his stellar reputation, I had no problem with that...can’t be too inflexible...

    buckfynn, Odog27 and JJ_Colt45 like this.
  4. Peter Hartwig

    Peter Hartwig Gold Member Gold Member

    Feb 29, 2008
    Certainly would end a lot of problems people have on their transactions. I know the administration doesn't want to be PP police, but the problems of F&F spill over to them anyway.
    Odog27 and JJ_Colt45 like this.
  5. rustysocket

    rustysocket Craftsman / Penmaker

    Feb 1, 2012
    I had to laugh at this... Not because it's wrong, but because I'm teaching my young one about sales tax and why the price on the item isn't the final price at the register. She gets irritated when she has a 100$ bill from Grandma burning a hole in her pocket but can't figure out if she has enough money or not.... I guess she told a lady at the register that taxes were crap and that they should just put the "right" number on the price tags.
    bisbob, palonej, Dangerously and 3 others like this.
  6. lickback


    Oct 9, 2018
    It is easy for me. There are just too many knives that come up for sale as g&s for me to take a risk on f&f.
    Odog27 and JJ_Colt45 like this.
  7. stonesell

    stonesell Gold Member Gold Member

    Feb 20, 2009
    I agree with eliminating the F&F option.
    It's possible that some sellers like PayPal F&F, because it gives them total control over what happens after the sale, if the buyer is dissatisfied.
    Since F&F is a breach of the PayPal agreement, those sellers should just ask for a money order, and stop flaunting PayPal rules.
  8. tyyreaun

    tyyreaun Gold Member Gold Member

    Feb 26, 2017
    Private sellers on forums are bad enough, but I've had a few custom makers ask for F&F. I don't want to call anyone out, but that includes some very well known ones.
    ArchVV and buckfynn like this.
  9. SharpByCoop

    SharpByCoop Enjoying the discussions Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Oct 8, 2001
    My summation is; the sellers are looking for either or both of two things:

    1. The non-discounted payment.
    2. Indemnity for recourse.

    I don't buy much, but if I was truly interested, rather than summarily dump a seller, I'd simply add in the fee and prepare to pay that amount. As a buyer I am paying 'extra' for MY buyer protection.

    One polite email: I am truly interested in your xxxx_object. I will pay you the extra 4%, yet I require the transaction to be under PayPal's legitimate Goods and Services payment. Are we good on this?

    If the seller balks, then he's going after point #2, and THAT'S cause for alarm. Pass.
    sechip, tyyreaun, JJ_Colt45 and 2 others like this.
  10. HappyDaddy

    HappyDaddy Gold Member Gold Member

    Dec 21, 2013
    I propose a rule change in the Exchange that would permit one comment in a F&F sale thread (first one in gets the honor) telling prospective buyers how stupid it would be to pay with F&F.
    CataD, tyyreaun, Cvrobinson and 2 others like this.
  11. BD_01

    BD_01 Basic Member Basic Member

    Jun 9, 2016
  12. SharpieB


    Oct 31, 2017
    I belong to another couple of forums that do not allow sellers to ask for F&F OR ask the buyer to pay any fees. It has worked well and I have bought and sold well over 100 items with zero issues.

    When I joined here a year ago, I was surprised that BF was different. The site owner cannot police against it, but they can try to discourage the practice and ensure it isn’t mentioned anywhere in for sale ads.
    buckfynn, JJ_Colt45 and WValtakis like this.
  13. hhmoore

    hhmoore Gold Member Gold Member

    Feb 7, 2014
    That's an option... but not one that interests some of us. I have a pretty negative view of the F&F sellers, and my opinion of the "net" or "add _%" crowd isn't much better. Seeing either of those in an ad generally kills the whole thing for me. Very occasionally, I'll contact the seller telling them that I'm interested in purchasing; but that aspect of their terms is unacceptable. I don't do it often (I may have sent 3 such messages since registering).

    I'm enough of a jerk that I include in my own ads a statement that the "net" or "+ _%" people should follow their own policies when making payment, also pointing out to the F&F crowd that I don't accept that payment option (and, yes, I have declined sales to the latter group).
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2018
    Matthew W., JJ_Colt45 and Odog27 like this.
  14. JJ_Colt45

    JJ_Colt45 Gold Member Gold Member

    Sep 11, 2014
    In theory I understand what you are saying ... but that to me is just unnecessary and causes the buyer to caculate all fees and shipping etc ...

    I'm sorry but in my opinion the fees are the sellers ... you got to try a knife and it didn't work out ... so it costs you a few dollars in fees and 10 to 15 in shipping ... why would anyone think a buyer should pay for you buying the knife and it not working ...

    and if sellers think they can get exactly what they bought it for or more that's great and their right ... but price it at what you want ... and NEVER request or accept F&F ...

    don't list it "net to me" if that's what you want add the 2.9% and .50 cents or whatever it is and list that all in ...

    it would blow their minds if sellers knew how many deals they lost in a days time for using these methods ...

    I just thought after all this time and all the horror stories this past year ... just maybe everyone would learn ... my mistake ...
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2018
    Odog27 likes this.
  15. Peter Hartwig

    Peter Hartwig Gold Member Gold Member

    Feb 29, 2008
    Net to me , G&S add fees will not stop me from buying if the resulting price is acceptable. It's easy enough for me to determine the approximate price(not math challenged) and I have a link to a calculator for the exact price.
    That said it is completely unnecessary and as many have pointed out they are turned off by it. If you are offending numerous buyers with your ad, you have a poor strategy. Keep it simple one price G&S is just smart salesmanship. If you are too cheap to eat the fees add them in.
    PP F&F- ripping off PP(puts in ? your ethics), offending even more people and not a smart way to save money with the loss of PP coverage-again poor strategy.
    I want as many people as possible to consider buying my items. As noted earlier I had no idea that G&S(I pay the fees) would bother anyone. Now that I do(and given a good alternative) that is the last time you will see that in my ads.
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2018
    sechip, JJ_Colt45 and Odog27 like this.
  16. hhmoore

    hhmoore Gold Member Gold Member

    Feb 7, 2014
    Site management has already said several times that they aren't going to regulate this. Unfortunately, that leaves it up to the membership...and too few are willing to speak with their wallets.
    In one of the many threads on this subject, it was suggested that like-minded people inform sellers (of items they would have purchased) that their terms of payment had cost them a sale. It was an in interesting discussion; but, having received a warning for doing so, I'm not recommending that approach, lol. So the sellers don't know they're shrinking their customer base, we can't tell them, and there are plenty of buyers that just don't care.
  17. Railsplitter

    Railsplitter Gold Member Gold Member

    Oct 31, 2010
    This is a good point and I'm glad you pointed it out. I have used the "I'll eat the fees" clause before and I didn't realize that some people might be offended by that. I get it now though.

    I always add the fees into my total price so I am in fact, not eating the fees at all. The buyer is. That's why I added them to the price. It's the same thing as saying "buyer pays the fees" only I don't come right out and say that. To say that I'm eating the fees is deceptive and I didn't realize that until now.

    I won't use that clause anymore and I appreciate you bringing this up.
    Odog27 likes this.
  18. SuckSqueezeBangBlow


    Apr 23, 2017
    On Australian blade forums we only use F&F, it seems to work well for us down here and never going to worry about getting investigated for tax etc.

    The way I see it is like this. Knife collecting is like a pass around with a buy in price and then the money and knives just change hands between friends.

    A bit over simplified but that's how it feels.
  19. HappyDaddy

    HappyDaddy Gold Member Gold Member

    Dec 21, 2013
    That may be how it “feels,” but the reality is that you are a thief. Theft of PP services is no less thievery than any other version.
  20. hhmoore

    hhmoore Gold Member Gold Member

    Feb 7, 2014
    There is nothing unusual about sellers considering their costs when determining a price. It doesn't really matter whether one is factoring gas and drive time, the shipping supplies, paypal fees, etc - those are all seller expenses, and there is no need to itemize them for anybody...just decide on the price and post it.

    No, it isn't. Stating that the buyer pays the fees typically means that they are to be added to the listed price when making payment (reference "net to me" or "add _%")

    There is no need to make any comment about the fees - when Goods & Services is used, the fees are taken out of the amount sent before the funds are transferred to the seller. Debating who, then, is actually "paying" is essentially an issue of semantics and a waste of time.
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