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People who blatantly and fraudulently sell knives as hand made when they are blanks..

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Spark said:
From what I can tell, that's an iPhone screenshot. Every iPhone I've ever owned had a camera on it. Chris Williams can clear all this up right now by walking out to his shop and taking a picture of a couple work in progress blade blanks prior to their bevels being ground. IMHO that'd dispel any claims about him using premade blanks purchased from a wholesaler for whichever model. Why go to the effort of typing all that up when a simple picture would handily blow any of these allegations out of the water? I don't get it.

I don't know, maybe I'm just not understanding this whole thing. The finished products that Williams Knife Company puts out look amazing. If they are hand made, it should be simple to show how those blades were made by hand. Am I wrong?

If someone is making claims of (to paraphrase) "Chris Williams is a phony" or "Chris Williams puts out garbage" or "Williams Knife Company is based on fraud" then those are very serious claims and not something to be taken lying down. For whatever reason Chris Williams has stated he's not going to address it here. I just don't understand why he'd make the effort to type out a long post and not dispel these issues.

I guess we all have a lot to learn here.
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Although... at this point I am not sure what that would be.

I enjoyed the classic spirited internet witch/monster hunt, the chest thumping, the indignation, the self righteous proclamations of some and the dog piling of others. Based on what they "saw" on the internet, it was apparent that they knew exactly what was going on, and challenged CW to defend himself. No one held a blank in one hand and his knife in another, no one tested the steel for authenticity or hardness. But "as seen on the internet", comparisons made on a computer screen were enough to light the torches and go after the monster. I enjoyed reading the time, energy, and the destructive acts aimed at calling out the monster. It was fun! Contacting his business associates and suppliers to tell them that you don't approve of his business model takes some real initiative.

First, I would say that CW owes no one here an explanation for any reason. The simple fact that YOU demand something of him doesn't mean he is obligated to reply or to comply with your wishes. Sure, you can dress it up in the fact that like Superman, you are doing it for the good of the public, and even in the defense of complying with a moral code of some sort. In the end, shrouded in whatever you want to use to make this a bigger issue, CW owes no one except his clients.

On the other hand, I don't understand how CW could resist shaming the most strident of the attackers and accusers by posting pictures of him grinding or even reprofiling blades. While many here would have no doubt regarded the pictures as fraud and demanded more, better, and vetted pictures from a third party source, I think many here would have let it go. It would be all too easy for CW to quit being so cagey and just put up a couple of pics of him at work.

As a professional woodworker and finisher for almost 40 years, I would have brought enough verbal napalm to the party for anyone that accused me of not being the real deal to have burned them and their house down. I am proud of what I do and have taken years of my life devoted to my craft to learn what I know and to polish my skills. Insults are NOT tolerated. I would gladly abuse anyone that accused me of being fraudulent or a cheat.

I would have understood if CW had ignored this thread. All that talk of lawsuits.... horse hockey. No business man would ever threaten that since you have to prove intent to harm and then provide proof of harm. Snarky posts on one internet forum hardly provide that. Worse, with a bit of checking, finding a lawyer to take a defamation/slander suit will probably cost you somewhere in the 10K range to start the ball rolling. A cease and desist letter is $65, but a lawsuit is an entirely different animal.

So what did we learn? I will speak for myself. The entertainment portion of the witch hunt is over. The monster is not available for comment. It appears that the mob has run its course and achieved nothing except some excitement between one another. I don't think I learned anything, but enjoyed the show until CW's last post where it turned really weird.

As always, your mileage may vary....

Robert
 
It's arguable that he "owes" his prospective clients an explanation almost as much as those who already have been (or are) a client. As both a maker AND consumer of custom knives myself, I could just as easily be in the market for a new chef knife, or even an oyster knife.

That said, I doubt very many of the participants in this thread consider themself a prospective client, but the fact remains that such an explanation still remains pubilicly unavailable.

My car gets terrible gas mileage.

;)
 
knife to a gunfight said:
It's arguable that he "owes" his prospective clients an explanation almost as much as those who already have been (or are) a client. As both a maker AND consumer of custom knives myself, I could just as easily be in the market for a new chef knife, or even an oyster knife.

That said, I doubt very many of the participants in this thread consider themself a prospective client, but the fact remains that such an explanation still remains pubilicly unavailable.

My car gets terrible gas mileage.

;)
Click to expand...

In Chris's last post he said he was bowing out of the discussion. This means that he has revealed all he cares to about how his knives are made. If he chooses to keep his manufacturing processes and materials a secret then that is his right. He has changed the misleading verbage in his website and no longer claims his knives are completely hand made. At this point it is up to the consumer to make the call on whether to purchase one.
Caveat emptor. As to the people who already own one of his knives, I guess it is up to them how they handle it.
 
ChrisWilliams said:
I wish each of you the best to you and yours. Many thanks...
Click to expand...

Including the people you planned to sue?

Your first post was admirable but your threats against the members and owner of this forum show us your true colors.

No one would be bothered if you do use blanks when building your knives as long as you are up front about it with your customers. I haven't handled any of your knives so I can't say whether you are using blanks or not, but if you are then just man up and say so. It's always better to come clean rather than to keep digging yourself into a deeper hole.
 
jimmyd1982 said:
Including the people you planned to sue?

Your first post was admirable but your threats against the members and owner of this forum show us your true colors.

No one would be bothered if you do use blanks when building your knives as long as you are up front about it with your customers. I haven't handled any of your knives so I can't say whether you are using blanks or not, but if you are then just man up and say so. It's always better to come clean rather than to keep digging yourself into a deeper hole.
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Maybe he considers using blanks a trade secret? If he doesn't want to show us how he uses blanks, then that is okay with me. I would hate to see Tom Mayo steal his techniques and start using manufactured blanks for his work. :rolleyes:
 
I clearly said before, if you have specific questions for me, here are 3 ways you can get in touch with me "Live", man to man, not behind an anonymous keyboard. Unlike the few habitual posters in the thread (you know who they are, its the same usernames, over and over and over), I do not have time to sit in front of the computer all hours of the night and day...I actually have work to do...lots of it these days.
Click to expand...
This tells me , I will talk about it just not where any potential or current customers might be able to read it for themselves. It would seem that you have enough time to make sure anyone that will pose questions about if your knives are custom handmade or mass produced kit knives is denied access/banned to your portals (as you like to call them). It takes very little time to type "Yes" or "no" , certainly less time than your BS responses.
I certainly do not want to take food out of the mouths of your children. That is in no way the intentions of my posts. I do want you to be truthful about how your knives are made. I would hate for someone to get the idea that buying a true custom made knife is a waste of the added expense and that they could get the same performance/quality from any mass produced knife. I believe this would hurt the craft that I love. I do wish Chris Williams and Williams knife co. the best and may the good lord provide the light for you to see and do what is right.
 
I'd like to hear one way or the other from Chris if these blades are actually handmade or if they are, as many have said, pre-made blanks. In my opinion any maker who is selling cheap blanks with a handle slapped on as a complete custom knife is underhanded and dishonest, to say the least, and is doing their customers and the knife enthusiast community as a whole a disservice.

Chris Williams could have simply manned up and answered the questions so many have asked but he chose not to do so and to resort to ridiculous legal threats instead. Oh well, it's Google that gets the last laugh on this subject since any person looking up Williams Knives will see this thread near the top of those search results for years to come. Depending on how long this discussion goes on for, those results may place this thread even higher than the Williams Knives company website. It just goes to show that being honest with potential customers and community members is the best policy.
 
The guy was lying. He's not lying anymore (at least for the time being). So this thread was useful. :thumbup:
 
midnight flyer said:
Although... at this point I am not sure what that would be.

I enjoyed the classic spirited internet witch/monster hunt, the chest thumping, the indignation, the self righteous proclamations of some and the dog piling of others. Based on what they "saw" on the internet, it was apparent that they knew exactly what was going on, and challenged CW to defend himself. No one held a blank in one hand and his knife in another, no one tested the steel for authenticity or hardness. But "as seen on the internet", comparisons made on a computer screen were enough to light the torches and go after the monster. I enjoyed reading the time, energy, and the destructive acts aimed at calling out the monster. It was fun! Contacting his business associates and suppliers to tell them that you don't approve of his business model takes some real initiative.

First, I would say that CW owes no one here an explanation for any reason. The simple fact that YOU demand something of him doesn't mean he is obligated to reply or to comply with your wishes. Sure, you can dress it up in the fact that like Superman, you are doing it for the good of the public, and even in the defense of complying with a moral code of some sort. In the end, shrouded in whatever you want to use to make this a bigger issue, CW owes no one except his clients.

On the other hand, I don't understand how CW could resist shaming the most strident of the attackers and accusers by posting pictures of him grinding or even reprofiling blades. While many here would have no doubt regarded the pictures as fraud and demanded more, better, and vetted pictures from a third party source, I think many here would have let it go. It would be all too easy for CW to quit being so cagey and just put up a couple of pics of him at work.

As a professional woodworker and finisher for almost 40 years, I would have brought enough verbal napalm to the party for anyone that accused me of not being the real deal to have burned them and their house down. I am proud of what I do and have taken years of my life devoted to my craft to learn what I know and to polish my skills. Insults are NOT tolerated. I would gladly abuse anyone that accused me of being fraudulent or a cheat.

I would have understood if CW had ignored this thread. All that talk of lawsuits.... horse hockey. No business man would ever threaten that since you have to prove intent to harm and then provide proof of harm. Snarky posts on one internet forum hardly provide that. Worse, with a bit of checking, finding a lawyer to take a defamation/slander suit will probably cost you somewhere in the 10K range to start the ball rolling. A cease and desist letter is $65, but a lawsuit is an entirely different animal.

So what did we learn? I will speak for myself. The entertainment portion of the witch hunt is over. The monster is not available for comment. It appears that the mob has run its course and achieved nothing except some excitement between one another. I don't think I learned anything, but enjoyed the show until CW's last post where it turned really weird.

As always, your mileage may vary....

Robert
Click to expand...

Robert, I agree with so much of this. :)

I do tend to ultimately end up feeling that the questions have been answered. I can't think of anyone that would fail to provide simple proof of their claims when their reputation or integrity is challenged. There's just no way that I can see that someone would fail to answer a simple YES/NO question rather than type long posts that ultimately say nothing at all.

If any of us relied on our work to support ourselves, would we fail to provide simple proof that we are who we say we are and do the work we say we do? Especially when we have mouths to feed? It just doesn't make any sense.

I think that there are people reaping the rewards of making a livelihood through the self publicity offered by the internet. These people should be aware that the net isn't a one way street. When questions arise, these people need to understand that how they deal with those questions sets the tone for your business. If you've played fast and loose with the truth, you have no one to blame but yourself.
 
midnight flyer said:
I don't think I learned anything, but enjoyed the show until CW's last post where it turned really weird. As always, your mileage may vary....Robert
Click to expand...

Not entirely true, Robert. We all learned somthing about you as well. As always, ymmv.

Best. . .
 
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I honestly don't care if he uses pre-made blanks or not. My issue was his intentional misrepresentation of his "craft" to his potential customers. It is false advertising and illegal. If he tells his customers that he uses blades that any of us can order from one of the knife supply houses and his customers still want to pay his prices then more power to him.
 
I just got off the phone with this guy. Everything out of his mouth was butter until I strarted asking questions about how he makes his knives. He immediately went on the defensive. When pressed, he claimed that his company is the one that supplies most of the blades that the suppliers sell. If this is the case then technically he makes the blades but does it on cnc machinery and probably has employees who actually do the work. Either way they're still kit blades.
My opinion is that he couldn't take a bar of steel and make a knife if his life depended on it. And until he proves otherwise that will remain my opinion.
Oh, I almost forgot, i never raised my voice, cursed, or insulted him in any way but our conversation ended with him hanging up on me. LOL
As a maker myself, I enjoy informing people about how my knives are made and try to send pics of many of the steps when filling a custom order. If a person is a true maker then he should have nothing to hide.
 
Matters of public record:

1. Williams Knife Company
3527 Kitford Rd
Johns Island, SC 29455
(843) 559-7903
For those of you generally interested however in learning more about my products, or myself, I do welcome any inquiries by the means listed below:

1) email - chris(AT)williamsknife.com (written to avoid spammers)
2) telephone - 843.559.790 three (written to avoid telemarketers)
3) 3527 Kitford Road, Johns Island, SC 29455...please, please, please...come see me in person
Click to expand...

3527 Kitford Road, Johns Island, SC.
Unit Type: Multi-Unit Residence
Sqft: 13,950
Lot: 87,120

2. Massenburg Construction Inc
3527 Kitford Rd
Johns Island, SC 29455
(843) 559-2411
Category: Johns Island Construction
Sub Category: Johns Island Builders & Contractors
Related: Johns Island Highway Surfacing & Paving Contractors

3. Action Marine Repai LLC
3527 Kitford Rd
Johns Island, SC 29455
(843) 559-1306
This business is categorized as a Boat Cleaning business. They accept Visa, Master Card, Discover, American Express. for payment.

4. AV WIRED
3527 Kitford Road, johns Island, SC 29455
www.avwired.com
Email this business
(843) 277-1094 Additional Contacts
Av Wired is a locally owned company that provides Audio-Visual Rentals, Video Production, Lighting, PC Repair & Data Recovery in Charleston and surrounding areas in South Carolina.

5. GCW Incorporated
3527 Kitford Rd, Ste A, Johns Island, SC 29455
(843) 557-1861
gcwincofcharleston.com
Categories: Cabinets & Counter Tops, Home Furnishings
Payment: Check
Brands: Custom Cabinetry by GCW inc, Rich Maid Kabinetry, Hagerstown Kitchens and Jim Bishop more...
Products and Services: Quality Cabinetry and Built-ins for any room in your house.
Principal: Mr. Bud Winstead (President)
 
I have been following this thread for some time. I have not commented thus far, in the interest of letting chips fall where they may, and keeping my nose in my own business.

However, I now feel compelled to comment briefly on this unfortunate and disheartening situation. My opinions herein are completely my own responsibility.

To wit:

To date (8-19-2013), I have never entered into or completed a business transaction with Darrin Sanders, nor have I have ever met him. But we have bid on many, many of the same jobs, and he has never under-cut me/any other knifemaker or lied about me/any other knifemaker or misrepresented himself as far as I know. I have seen him contribute a great deal of his experience to Shop-Talk discussions. Those are statements of fact, to the best of my knowledge.

I sincerely doubt that Mr. Sanders would make up lies about a phone conversation and post them in this or any other thread. I consider Mr. Sanders to be an honorable human being, and I have absolutely no reason to think otherwise. Those are statements that reflect my personal and professional opinion.
 
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At least he is charging reasonable prices for them.

I noticed a few that looked a lot like blanks, just skimming over it.

However, I do not see where he says he specifically makes the blades.
 
You people are a hoot. Using blade blanks or making kit knives and selling them as customs has been a very old scam. If you are too stupid to know what you are buying...maybe you shouldn't buy it. :)

This guy is another reason to not buy knives on the internet. Go to a show, meet the maker, press the flesh. That being said, I've been lied to about kit knives at more than one gun show, knife show and state fair.


However, for those on your high horse, there are "well respected" knifemakers who do the same thing...it's called mid-tech knives. The only difference, is the design is theirs, but the blades, handles and sometimes even the edge are put on by the subcontractors and the maker just assembles the knife.


Then you have the well known maker...with shop help. The maker's name goes on the knife, but you see pictures of 50 blade blanks and the shop rat in the corner. Who really made the knife? The company that blanked the handles and blade for the fixed blade, the shop rat who put the edge on and assembled the knife, or the guy who's name is on the knife, but only pays the help, the subcontractors and...if you are lucky, inspects the product before shipment.

But I've seen kit knives, mid-tech knives and production knives with better design, fit and finish than many of the makers on this forum.
 
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