People who blatantly and fraudulently sell knives as hand made when they are blanks..

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Thanks for everything Spark, I think I speak for every member here when I say that we're all lucky to have you as our site owner.

Disclaimer Statement: All of my posts made in this thread are simply my own opinion, thoughts, criticisms and speculation on the subject matter presented. In no way do I intend to state anything as a matter of fact inwhich could be misconstrued as slander, libel, or defamation in regards to Chris Williams and Williams Knife Co.
 
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Lots of work answering those complaints, perhaps if Mr Williams took the same amount of time to address the issues at hand, with the video as suggested by Spark, then this whole thread could be somewhat positive.

Andy
 
I do try to be neutral in most threads I chime in on in the GBU, but at times I do become a bit biased or one sided. For that I apologize and I'll try to watch myself in the future. This thread, for the most part, has been a lot of speculation;however, I would say most comments (not all) have been well reasoned or justified to some extent. Really everything in regards to this issue has already been said and there isn't that much more that can be brought up.

I understand Chris Williams is very distraught and upset at this moment, but the only person who can really resolve is Mr. Williams himself. As spark suggested above, a video showing how Mr. Williams makes a knife from start to finish would but most speculation to a rest.

One other note Mr. Williams did state that the Oyster knife was his design. I'm not here to doubt you, but there has been quite a few posts comparing your Edisto Oyster knife to similar looking knife blanks. Unless you can provide some proof that it is in fact your design many of those posts still and will continue to put you in bad light.
 
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After reading through most of this, I have one question for Mr. Williams. Do you make and grind the knives you sell or do you buy blanks and put handles on them and sell them as custom knives?
 
In My Opinion, it's quite a coincidence that so many of Mr William's knife blades appear visually identical to common kit blades available from large knife supply dealers.

It is also my opinion that Mr Williams had an excellent opportunity to boost his business and reputation with the free BladeForums publicity, and he blew it.
 
In my opinion, Spark is awesome.

(The opinions soforth contained herein in this post are strictly the opinion of the poster's opinions, with no implied warranties or guarantees or legalese)
 
Obviously Chris is mad about these posts, but has he denied any of the accusations? I'm not sure what justification he has for wanting the posts removed unless they are untrue. The issue is pretty cut and dry, either he is selling pre-ground knife blanks or he isn't. I have never held a Williams knife so I cannot say for sure, but the evidence I have seen points to these knives not being hand made. I think a little transparency would appease everyone involved.
 
richard j said:
i know if someone asked me if i used kit knives to make my knives, i would invite them over to watch me make a knife or i would make a vid showing step by step how i make a knife from start to finish.
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Exactly how it should be. I watched you build one for me so I can vouch for you.
Can anyone say the same about Mr. Williams?
 
Im fine with my post reported being deleted.....since I had no reference to anything other than I couldnt look at the website from my phone...and I couldnt afford expensive knives anyway. Hence my post other than being in the thread has no validity to the thread....other than I couldnt look at the website....which I cant.

if it appeases all parties involved delete away...and this one can be deleted as well if needed. Thanks.
 
ChrisWilliams said:
Good evening to all. My apologies for being remiss in not responding sooner but my kids start school back next week and I've taken some much needed time with them prior to their return to the rigorous schedule of elementary school and all that goes along with it.

I will not get into a war of words on this site, as honestly I'm not much of a forum kind of guy or an individual looking for confrontation, etc. I like to spend time with my family, work in my shop and do my best to be a valuable member of this crazy society in which we live.

I tell you this to say that out of respect for any of you guys offended or troubled by me or my work, it is not nor was not my intentions. Quite the contrary actually. Not my style at all. Again, I enjoy my time on this earth doing something I love and trying my best as a man to support my family and be as much of an active part of their lives as possible. Simply that. Not to go to shows, compete in competitions, try to win accreditations, etc. Not what I want to do. My grandfather who was an incredible man taught me what a knife was. He was a man of extremely humble means and if something broke, he fixed it, himself. Whether running a very crude grinder to make a piece of steel sharp or replacing an old oak handle on a knife that he just couldn't part with.

Do I use CNC'ed blades in a portion of my work? Absolutely I do. Are these "cheap/junk", I do everything in my power to make sure they are not and work very closely as well as having investments in several machining operations. Do I buy knives off eBay? I do not. I know this will get backlash, but I just don't buy from ebay. Do I have very solid relationships with very good people in the knife industry that have helped me design styles, etc and then help to produce ideas, absolutely I do and most of these connections were made through the help of some very very good knifemakers I have gotten to know in my area. This is one reason a long time ago I decided to join forces from an investment standpoint within the machining industry. One thing I absolutely love is consistency and durability. Putting practices in place to insure this is of the utmost importance to me. I want a very good end product that I can absolutely stand behind. While my business model might not look like yours, it is the one that I can guarantee and live with. Do some of my knife styles look like others, of course they do. How many times can the traditional trout fillet be redesigned? I'm not attempting with this to start a long war of words or a "he said, she said". I'm trying to explain to the angry mob that my intentions are not to detract from the integrity, hardwork and intensity that a master blade smith is doing in his work. As a result many of them reap countless rewards and vast sums of money per knife. I congratulate them for this and wish everyone in this community the best! Again, I don't degrade other makers, I don't knock their work, I honestly look at my work as a business for me to support my family, not a competition and certainly not an ego boost. Plain and simple. I am man enough to give any one of you guys my address, phone number, etc and will gladly have you to my shop, or talk to you man to man. I have nothing to hide from you or anyone and am man enough to welcome any of you into my world to see me as a person. I am a good person and not this disrespectful thug many of you seem to be portraying me as. I am sorry if you think/thought otherwise.

One thing I will defend is this. The oyster knife design is my design. I will stand before the Good Man above and tell you that exact fact. Has it been copied and reproduced, mass produced now with a hidden tang and with a full tang...it has. Am I worried about it? Not one bit. This is absolutely a free market and a society in which capitalism is encouraged. So no business idea, product etc is safe from this type of duplication. If I would have ever thought so, I would have attempted to seek a patent, etc. But how in good faith would I do that if I'm using a trout fillet design or traditional chef design that had been around long before any of us here were even breathing on this earth. You can agree or disagree with me, it's totally your right and I'm respectful that a person's opinion is just that...theirs!

I have taken steps to remove any misleading verbiage (or at least my tech buddy is working on it) to ensure there are no claims that are not 100% correct on the site. The use of "FROM blade...to sheath" is not 100% correct, although the intent at the time was to say it was going "From" one thing to another. No matter, it is being removed and hope you know I'm doing this because I have enough respect for the knife community to do so.

I will leave this discussion with two quick thoughts I take away from the last few hours of reading this stuff. 1) The "removal" of posts, etc were done because often they were laden with profanity and comments that I would not let me child look at. Plain and simple, it offended me and I don't condone that in their worlds. 2) There were attacks on me and my family. I will take any words thrown at me, but I will not put up with that crap towards my loved ones. Zero tolerance there. 3) The rude comments about me "not working hard", etc...they were uncalled for. I literally bust my rear end, everyday, from sun up to sun down. My work ethic is not something I will have questioned. Who is to say that the "starting point" to be a valid hard working knife maker is from the steel billet...why then could one not say that a "real hard working" knife maker is starting with the gathering of ore from the ground. It doesn't make sense to me that a person can blindly attack my character because he or she thinks something is only done one way or it's not "right". I'm sorry but I don't agree with that.

Once again, I appreciate the comments. I honestly do. I'm just a normal simple guy trying to do a good job at life. I provide for my obligations and my family, I buy tons of goods from all kinds of kind people across the world that generates revenues for them, I employee several guys who depend on our hardwork to support their lives, I pay my taxes, and I donate countless items, money and time to more causes than you could possibly imagine.

What I don't do is offend, disrespect or get involved in people's business or lives. Sorry if I have interfered with yours in some way. Do what you will with this response, gather and process your own personal thoughts. I am stopping for a second as a fellow human being, not a knife maker, and telling you all that I respect each and every one of you as a fellow being. I hope in some little way you might be able to gleam just a tad that I'm not that bad of a guy in all honesty.

All my best to everyone and I am sorry for any trouble, offense or hardship I might have unintentionally exposed you to. Feel free to let me know if you'd like to discuss any of this live with me, I am open to it anytime!
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So with that bolded statement you're openly admiting that you where misrespresenting your product to your customers and the general public. I do believe false advertising and misrepresentation comes with certain legal ramifications. What do I know though, I'm simply a foolish and generally uneducated individual isn't that right chris? That's what you communicated to Spark in the e-mails he posted, that we're all uneducated fools? Here is some free advice chris, have your "ducks in a row" before you start throwing out accusations and begin threatening people and communities with legal proceedings. Especially when most of us where simply speculating and questioning your manufacturing practices and business ethics.

Here is a link to the Federal Trade Commision's offical policy statement regarding misrepresentation and false advertising:

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/policystmt/ad-decept.htm

Here is a link to the Federal Trade Commision's website to formally lodge a complaint:

https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/

Disclaimer Statement: All of my posts made in this thread are simply my own opinion, thoughts, criticisms and speculation on the subject matter presented. In no way do I intend to state anything as a matter of fact inwhich could be misconstrued as slander, libel, or defamation in regards to Chris Williams and Williams Knife Co.
 
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Hello all,

This post got my blood pressure up as I read it, so I stopped reading and came back to it later. THEN I checked out this gentleman's site, and I had to reply to this thread.

Gotta say, my opinion did a 180 while looking at his site, he must have responded to the criticisms voiced here. I see nothing now that leads me to believe this man is trying to scam or mislead anyone. I do see someone who is making visually appealing knives that appear to be of acceptable quality. From what I see on his site, they ARE overpriced. But if he is getting those prices, then good for him. He is obviously selling to customers outside the "knife nuts" who frequent this site.

An argument could be made that he is reaching folks who would not otherwise consider purchasing a custom knife. Some of them are likely to become more interested in the product and move on to other makers. Maybe even some who frequent this site...???

This man does not appear to be a visitor of this site or the other forums or publications that we frequent (check his join date). He may be someone who learned the craft from family and friends, just as he says. In that case, he came up with his definition of what a knifemaker is... And that's OK.

If he uses blanks as described here, I would call him a handle maker. However 18 months ago, before I got the knife making bug, I would have called him a knife maker. just like his current cuatomers. The point is, there is a large world of makers outside the forum and knife show world, and we don't control the definition of a knifemaker. I consider this variety a good thing. We want and need more people aware of custom knives and this variety of makers will hit audiences we knife nerds would probably not reach.

All that said, if someone has examined and used one of his knife and found it below grade.... The story changes. But I have heard nobody here state that they actually examined a Williams knife. Until you have done this or seen a comment by someone who has, this is all speculation.

In fact, given Mr Williams responses in this thread, it likely places someone at the center of a heated controversy who was ignorant of the entire subject. And it is doing him harm. IMHO. I am sure he is aware of the "what is a knife maker" debate now.

NO! I am in no way affiliated with Mr William. Never heard of him before today.
YES! I consider it perfectly valid that he is selling knives he says he "made". I see someone from a different knife making background than mine. That's OK and I congratulate him.
 
BFrancios said:
Hello all,

This post got my blood pressure up as I read it, so I stopped reading and came back to it later. THEN I checked out this gentleman's site, and I had to reply to this thread.

Gotta say, my opinion did a 180 while looking at his site, he must have responded to the criticisms voiced here. I see nothing now that leads me to believe this man is trying to scam or mislead anyone. I do see someone who is making visually appealing knives that appear to be of acceptable quality. From what I see on his site, they ARE overpriced. But if he is getting those prices, then good for him. He is obviously selling to customers outside the "knife nuts" who frequent this site.

An argument could be made that he is reaching folks who would not otherwise consider purchasing a custom knife. Some of them are likely to become more interested in the product and move on to other makers. Maybe even some who frequent this site...???

This man does not appear to be a visitor of this site or the other forums or publications that we frequent (check his join date). He may be someone who learned the craft from family and friends, just as he says. In that case, he came up with his definition of what a knifemaker is... And that's OK.

If he uses blanks as described here, I would call him a handle maker. However 18 months ago, before I got the knife making bug, I would have called him a knife maker. just like his current cuatomers. The point is, there is a large world of makers outside the forum and knife show world, and we don't control the definition of a knifemaker. I consider this variety a good thing. We want and need more people aware of custom knives and this variety of makers will hit audiences we knife nerds would probably not reach.

All that said, if someone has examined and used one of his knife and found it below grade.... The story changes. But I have heard nobody here state that they actually examined a Williams knife. Until you have done this or seen a comment by someone who has, this is all speculation.

In fact, given Mr Williams responses in this thread, it likely places someone at the center of a heated controversy who was ignorant of the entire subject. And it is doing him harm. IMHO. I am sure he is aware of the "what is a knife maker" debate now.

NO! I am in no way affiliated with Mr William. Never heard of him before today.
YES! I consider it perfectly valid that he is selling knives he says he "made". I see someone from a different knife making background than mine. That's OK and I congratulate him.
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I would say that simply because he doesn't flat out misrepresent his product, doesn't mean that he is behaving ethically in his business practices. If he does use those blanks, it would seem he marks up the price on his knives tremendously, and uses people's ignorance of knives to profit. If a restaurant cooked you up a TV dinner from the grocery store, threw it on a plate with bit of garnish, then charged you $60 for it, would you be happy?
 
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Chris, I do believe that if you took the same time and effort correcting the wording in your website and contacting the sites that are billing you as a Master blade smith (that is a title that must be earned) and requesting they correct their mistake as you did trying to have posts removed that presented questions about if your knives are handmade by you. Some would think of you as more of the stand up American good guy that you describe yourself as. You were asked straight yes or no questions that you chose not to answer. Why? I would love to see a work in progress video from you showing us uneducated folk a thing 'er two about knife making.

This post ,any hereafter and previous posts made in this thread where simply my own opinion, thoughts, criticisms and speculation on the subject matter presented. In no way did I intend to state anything previously as a matter of fact in which should or could be misconstrued as slander, libel, or defamation.
 
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BFrancios said:
YES! I consider it perfectly valid that he is selling knives he says he "made". I see someone from a different knife making background than mine. That's OK and I congratulate him.
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From his FB page " He hand makes each knife from blade to sheath and he’s constantly experimenting with new materials, patterns and techniques with the goal of continually improving his products"

" IF" he is using premade ground blanks , he is then NOT making the blade at all , so that would be misrepresenting what it actually is that he does.
 
Plues, agreed but we are taking the wrong lesson from his overpriced product. His customers obviously don't know about our better "food". He is showing us a market we are not hitting. Do we want to whine publicly about his poor food like a snooty chef (and drive people away with the negativity), or figure out how he is getting people to eat his slop and use those techniques to teach people what real gourmet food tastes like?

I fear that this vigilante harping about his techniques does more harm to custom knifemakers than the poor product he is or may be putting out. More folks will hear about this e-mobbing and shun established and accredited makers, and the forum for sale boards, than will experience or hear about some poor quality custom knives and shun custom knives due to one maker.

Are we union thugs or professional craftsman?


EDIT: for the record, it is the harassment of this mans suppliers, retailers, testimonial customers and face book page that I find troubling. Those public actions turned this from a constructive criticism of marketing statements into an ugly character assassination.


Last reply to this thread. This is a never ending kinda discussion.
 
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BFrancios said:
Plues, agreed but we are taking the wrong lesson from his overpriced product. His customers obviously don't know about our better "food". He is showing us a market we are not hitting. Do we want to whine publicly about his poor food like a snooty chef (and drive people away with the negativity), or figure out how he is getting people to eat his slop and use those techniques to teach people what real gourmet food tastes like?

I fear that this vigilante harping about his techniques does more harm to custom knifemakers than the poor product he is or may be putting out. More folks will hear about this e-mobbing and shun established and accredited makers, and the forum for sale boards, than will experience or hear about some poor quality custom knives and shun custom knives due to one maker.

Are we union thugs or professional craftsman?


Last reply to this thread. This is a never ending kinda discussion.
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I'm not sure I understand your point of view. You mean to say that we should not point it out on the largest knife forum out there that there may be a scammer hawking kit knives as customs? That we should ignore this and instead figure out how he got so good at duping people out of their money, but do it quietly so as not to cast a negative light on other craftsman that are completely unrelated to this situation? The ways to put this thread to rest permanently have been suggested multiple times in this thread and are rather simple to do if the accused party wishes to. Where's that ball? His court.

I think we should absolutely call attention to it. Did you know that the majority of the time I google search something knife related I get multiple links to BF? I say that if someone searches a brand and comes across information that prevents them from wasting hundreds of dollars- or at least doing further research- that we have done our part to protect the knife community. I'll also admit that while I am familiar with many things in the knife world but kit knives are not one of them. If I were looking for a knife along the lines of the ones discussed in this thread I likely wouldn't be able to tell you whether a particular knife was a kit or not. I tend to take people at their word.
 
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