Performance: Forged vs Stock Removal

[Tai Goo]

Here's one that would be impossible to duplicate through pure stock reduction. It's a pattern welded blade collaboration by McLane and Kidwell... but then on the other hand, there are some knives by guys like Gil Hibben, that would be "virtually" impossible to forge and/or duplicate and for sure impractical,... with a fire and a hammer.

I think David is correct. You can't take the "human factor" out, without taking the maker out.

I should go post this one on the “favorite customs” thread.

 

[Hmathews]

I doubt any stock reduction maker could duplicate this knife nearly as fast as I could forge it or capture the character of it,... and I'm sure there are others that they could do much faster with a totally different character.

Might not be possible to do it at all if it had to be done from the same piece of stock. Assuming the piece of steel was large enough it would be a real pain to say the least. Advantage....forging.

Much depends on the maker, his capabilities and experience. The top blade is stock removal of 1095. It was much quicker and easier for me to make than the one below which I forged from 1084. A different maker that has more experience with a hammer and anvil than I have could likely beat me forging the same bottom blade.

I did have more fun making the lower knife.

 

[Tai Goo]

Harry! I don't think there would be any dang way to make it from the same sized stock. That's for sure!

If I could make a generalization about stock redution vs. forging,... it would probaly be that stock redutionists make a lot more steel dust than guys that forge do.

 

[Hmathews]

If I could make a generalization about stock redution vs. forging,... it would probaly be that stock redutionists make a lot more steel dust than guys that forge do.

Undeniable truth! I often tell people that we make dust, that knives are just a byproduct.

When you go from this:

to this:

using a grinder the piles of dust are very impressive.

 

[RMLamey]

With due respect? Who are you and what have you done with Matt Lamey? Come on Matt, if we were having this conversation in person you would just come out and tell me I am full of %&$!

Yeah... your probably right... but i always try and be extra nice when online.

I actually agree with most of what you posted in this thread, and maybe in a very broad view we would both agree (if you compared the entire stock removal field vs the entire forging field). I guess I also have to take into consideration the other 'smiths I talk to ARE focussed on the common denominators of performance (which I know is another topic) or I wouldnt really be sharing ideas with them on a regular basis... so to that degree my initial statement was a bit biased.

Looking forward to Blade!

 

[MVF]

So no one wants to talk about the intangible, metaphysical and mystical differences that result from the increased attention and intention involved in beating a piece of steel into your desired shape (a positive activity) versus just grinding away what you don't like (a negative activity), and the resulting increase in the "character" or soul of the blade?







Dang I wish I could have posted this anonymously!

 

[jdm61]

Both sides are guilty on occasion of using materials can detract from the "peformance of a blade" Many of us metal pounders have fallen under the spell of "art for art's sake" when it comes to damascus. As many of the high end pieces will never be used, often, patterns are developed purely for their visual effect that, by the very nature of their construction, are a compromise as far as strength goes. Many of the mosaic blade patterns would fall inot this category, I would thing. We also introduce raw materials, excess amounts of pure nickel being the most obvious, that can have a detrimental effect on the blade's ability to perform. In the case of the stock removal guys, the one that comes to mind is titanium. There are a lot of folks out there with titanium knives who will never find themselves poking around in a minfield. I always thought that a stick would be safer for that task anyway

 

[2knife]

I should go post this one on the “favorite customs” thread.

Tai,
I wonder if the domain name Uglyknife.com is taken?
David

 

[2knife]

Kevin,
Thank you, i appreciate the explainations for my questions. The practical examples you give help me understand the ideas better.
David

 

[Tai Goo]

Tai,
I wonder if the domain name Uglyknife.com is taken?
David

The pix don't do it justice.

 

[Tai Goo]

So no one wants to talk about the intangible, metaphysical and mystical differences that result from the increased attention and intention involved in beating a piece of steel into your desired shape (a positive activity) versus just grinding away what you don't like (a negative activity), and the resulting increase in the "character" or soul of the blade?







Dang I wish I could have posted this anonymously!

Forging beats the evil spirits out of the steel.

 

[Michael Lovett]

I rest my case. The biggest difference(Here on Blade Forums at least) is that noted Forger can tell the truth. Kevin C. stated much the same as I have, and much greater detail. Difference is, Had I said all this Holy Crap would I be in trouble.

Here is one for you. Who was the First truly respected Knife maker to study Heat treating. Metallurgy. Yield strengths. Multiple temper cycles, and soak times for the proper grain refinement of the steels and the abrasion resistance of steels, and the relation of same to the difficulty of sharpening of the different steels.
Only forgers worry about heat treat? My A**. I have never heard anything so ridiculous in my life! If it weren't for us pushing it, most forgers would still be playing a torch over the blade to draw temper it. It never dawned on most of them that it takes a given temp, at a given time period to properly refine the grain. Some still believe this is done in the fire and forge. Not! No more than the lies about packing the edge. Packing the molecules. Breaking up the grain. OH, and beating a soul into the metal.
All fast talking Flem-flam. Period. Thats a nice word of bull sh*it!
It's quaint. Fun! An way to enjoy a little nostalgia. Almost like making modern (New) Antiques. I love the forged blade. It's just all the Bull that goes along with it to gain customer that irks me. Some of the lines at the shows sounds a pot and pan show at a carnival.

One poster ask why stock removal makers don't enter the cutting competitions at the ABS cutting events. Because it is ABS! Were not invited. However, most major Knife Shows do have cutting competitions. They are well attended.

I didn't keep up last year. If I'm not mistaken, Reggie Barker took the year with a knife made by Warren Osborn from Texas. Stock removed, M-4 CPM Steel from Crucible steel.

Which brings me to a question of my own. Every time one of these debates come up, it is always a forged carbon steel vs' Stock removal Stainless Steel. Yo folks do know that Stock removal makers use a "Lot" of carbon steel don't you? Or is this another one of the sales pitches for the masses. Only forgers use simple carbon steel. Yea, right!

Has anyone noticed that the so called stainless Steels used in modern Custom Knife making isn't really stainless steel at all, but rather high carbon, and in many instances Hi-speed steels that have enough alloying in them to help in the performance needed in a myriad of different task, to also as a side benefit , be some what stain resistant. Not Stainless Steel! We Don't use it!!! It's for pots and pans. And kitchen counter tops in restaurants. Not high performance Cutlery!!!

Kevin C. You have big Balls my friend. If I or any other Non Forge maker said half what you have, there would probably already be a contract out!

DonH. I think you are an honest maker who does exceptional work. But your BS on me is uncalled for. Open your eyes my friend. I've been at this a lot longer than you, and have seen a hell of a lot being done to cause these rifts. Go Thru any of the Knife Digest, Blade, heck any of the knife pub's dating back over the past 25-30 years. You won't believe the ludicrous claims. This whole thing is B.S.. Has been for a very long time. Trouble is, most of these myths have been around so long that many collectors, and sadly, makers as well take them as Gospel.

Without collectors, many makers couldn't make it. They are a huge part of our business. They are the Critics of our work. This is as it should be. However, it's getting to be a little like movie critics. They use to collect makers a work, because they appreciated what came form the makers mind and skill. This has changed to a lot of fad collecting. Now it is the Collectors, due to the scramble by so many makers to get their money, that guide the market. We saw it in the Art Knives. The wildly embellished folders. Heck, not many knives out there were usable at all anymore. And If you did use one. It would hurt it's value. (This is not what most of had in mind when we became makers!) Even the last bastion of using knives, the tactical knives have become wild, holly wood want to be's. Totally incapable of doing what a knife is supposed to do.

When are makers going to say enough and start making Knives again. Knives that are really knives. Not something that is so soft over most of its blade surface that any use would destroy its value.

Holly Wood may be crazy, but you won't see the actors and directors turning over the movie making process to the critics. They may know what they like or don't like, but they wouldn't have a clue in hell as to how to make a movie. Much less tell the director how to make a proper movie.

This is exactly what the Knife Makers are doing. The ABS style knives with the wild hammons are beautiful to look at. An art knife collectors dream. Is this where it's heading? Simply making showy knives for the well to do collector. Does anyone out there want to make real knives that can be used by real people. I think the prices we are seeing answer that very well.

I would like to see more makers use less embellishment of any type and really concentrate on making a really clean knife. You would be really amazed how many big name makers out there can't make a clean knife. Much less a functional one.

 

[brightred]

Ease of sharpening is a term that always makes me wince. Sharpening is the wearing of the edge into a finer more useful shape, an edge that wears with ease in one way certainly does in another…

i agree. and i also agree with mike that the modern high alloy steels hold an edge much longer (my experience with ats-34, 440c, s30v, s60v, s90v). but that does not mean that these steels are "better" than the so called carbon steels. it depends on what you expect from your knife.

If I were buying a knife I would want it to resist wear.

not necessarily. i posted the pictures of my cutting fun to illustrate how nicely you can sharpen a carbon steel blade. it requires some experience, but it's not that difficult and done in no time. you noticed that both knives are kitchen knives. the stones and the leather strap are only meters away from the knives and always at hand when needed. in the kitchen i want a thin blade (in general) with an acute edge angle, made of a steel that takes a very sharp edge for press-cutting vegetables and hard fruits. the initial sharpness is much more imortant than slow edge wear, because sharpening/stropping is no issue as long as the stone/strap is near and the steel is easy to sharpen/strop.

but if i were a hunter on a two week hunting trip, expecting a lot of game to be opened (? english) then i would use a knife with a slightly toothy high alloy pm steel blade, because i don't want to sharpen the blade all the time in the field. and i wouldn't care too much about super thinly sliced onions... back home i would give the knife to somebody who has a belt grinder. i hate to sharpen pm-steels on oil stones, it's very time consuming (and this has nothing to do with the hardness of the steel, in my experience). maybe i should try one of those diamond stones, mike recommends.

but why do i prefer carbon steel knives in the field? because i am not a hunter, more a camper. cause i like tho whack and to chop, and you shouldn't do that with modern high alloy steels when you love your knives. and then, there are dozens of rather irrational reasons

the long and the short of it: stock removal, forged, high alloy, low alloy - you won't be disappointed as long as you know what you can expect from your steel (always provided the maker is a master of his trade).

best regards,
hans

 

[lwrhea]

Without collectors, many makers couldn't make it. They are a huge part of our business. They are the Critics of our work. This is as it should be. However, it's getting to be a little like movie critics. They use to collect makers a work, because they appreciated what came form the makers mind and skill. This has changed to a lot of fad collecting. Now it is the Collectors, due to the scramble by so many makers to get their money, that guide the market. We saw it in the Art Knives. The wildly embellished folders. Heck, not many knives out there were usable at all anymore. And If you did use one. It would hurt it's value. (This is not what most of had in mind when we became makers!) Even the last bastion of using knives, the tactical knives have become wild, holly wood want to be's. Totally incapable of doing what a knife is supposed to do.

When are makers going to say enough and start making Knives again. Knives that are really knives. Not something that is so soft over most of its blade surface that any use would destroy its value.

Holly Wood may be crazy, but you won't see the actors and directors turning over the movie making process to the critics. They may know what they like or don't like, but they wouldn't have a clue in hell as to how to make a movie. Much less tell the director how to make a proper movie.

This is exactly what the Knife Makers are doing. The ABS style knives with the wild hammons are beautiful to look at. An art knife collectors dream. Is this where it's heading? Simply making showy knives for the well to do collector. Does anyone out there want to make real knives that can be used by real people. I think the prices we are seeing answer that very well.

I would like to see more makers use less embellishment of any type and really concentrate on making a really clean knife. You would be really amazed how many big name makers out there can't make a clean knife. Much less a functional one.

Mike,
I forge my blades. I do it because I was taught to shape my blades that way. For the record, I dont think one is superior over the other, when the right steel, heat treat, etc are used for a given purpose. Either side (forge or SR) has it's limits and strong points. That being said, I think there are some wrong choices (actually a lot) being made as to steel and finishes for blades. Sure, they look good, but in agreement with what you said above, they are just not meant to be used. I dont have a problem if the blade gets scratched in normal use or the finish needs SOME maintainace, but a knife has to be a knife and perform as a knife FIRST.
I also agree that a maker should make a clean knife, then embellish it tastefully in a way that enhances it's function or, at least does not detract from it. Your above quote struck me as something to remember, whether we forge or stock remove. Lin

 

[Kevin R. Cashen]

...Kevin C. You have big Balls my friend. If I or any other Non Forge maker said half what you have, there would probably already be a contract out!...

Mike I appreciate the nod, but whatever balls I have seem to be locked somewhere in the bottom of my wifes purse these days. As for my ability to say what I say, it may have to do with the delivery, you know the whole flies, honey, vinegar thing. Diplomacy can be difficult on the internet, but if you want to avoid Guido's contracts you got to work hard at it. Everything I post, write or talk about is done out of the sincerest desire to make my craft and my fellow smiths better. My criticism is always constructive at heart and based on quantifialbe data as much as possbile so that my feelings don't muddy things. I even think there is room for the edge packing witch doctors and hucksters, as long as people realize what they are and are not being mislead anymore.

While I may agree with some of the content in your last post, the presentation style makes me want to agree a few feet farther away while the contracted red laser dots start appearing.

 

[Kevin R. Cashen]

Kevin, it seems like you are talking both sides of the fence, which is fine. I do it too, all the time...

On the one hand you are saying that the reason you forge is, "Because it is simply the coolest way I have found to make knives.", with no definite scientific explanation or advantage in terms of performance. On the other hand you seem to be saying that if someone else thinks analyzing and using mystery metal is cool, with no definite scientific explanation or advantage,… that it is unacceptable by your standards.

At the same time, I can't help but feel that with your understanding of steel, that I could hand you a piece steel, composition unknown to you, and you would be able to analyze it well enough in your shop to determine whether or not it would make a good blade or be an acceptable blade steel,... and if it were, you could make a good knife from it. I'm not saying that it would necessarily be the "best" way to go. But there again what's "best" is subjective. However, as a matter of personal individual perspective, and concept,… what's "coolest", may also be thought of as best.

As an abstract, intuitive and circular thinker, I have no problem holding two apparently opposing truths together at the same time either… However, I avoid speaking my opinions and preferences as if they were facts and right or best for everyone all the time... If I did it would appear contradictory...

It is that delicate balance between the creative, mind and the pure analytical logical side. I must admit the more pure logical thinking I use, the less artistic I become, when I am doing a lot of analytical work my knives tend to get rather straight forward and less fanciful; the two mindsets seem to be at odds.

However I think we were focusing on the optimum outcome for a using tool and maximizing the potential properties in the steel. If this is the case then we can all agree that heat treatment is the key, and with every steel having its own unique heat treating needs, if you don’t even know what steel you have in the blade nailing that process is simply not realistic. The guy who knows the chemistry in that blade and has the tools to tap precisely into will have you beat hands down, except of course in aesthetic or artistic quality, but then we are making tools not wind chimes.

Yes indeed, if I had a ton of free scrap steel that was all the same, I could work out how to properly treat it without an analysis. It would involve many hours of treating and testing with precise controls and my most valuable tool would be microscopic examination of the resulting structures (quick checks with brass rods, files and sawing on rope just wouldn’t cut it in my shop, no pun intended). It would consume vast amounts of time for me to be happy with the results. This is one more excellent reason for me to say that "free" mystery steel is the most expensive metal I could work with.

Not that other features and qualities cannot sometimes trump the pure performance aspect of things, as long as the smith is up front about things. I often use what I call “tootie fruity” damascus in my fittings. All the leftovers and odd scraps laying about my shop get mashed into these billets for the interesting visual effects they often give, and while I heat treat all my fittings as well, it is obviously not as critical and most wouldn’t expect a guard and pommel to be heat treated at all. But my blades are the business end of the knife, and I am nothing short of obsessive about the treatment and internal structure of that, you wouldn’t believe the things that keep me awake at night

But even at the blade level other qualities can sometimes trump the need for optimum physical properties. To keep my balance and sanity I have started making bloomery steel from raw ore, and while the resulting steel has no comparison to modern alloys it has a intrinsic value simply for what it is. I have yet to use any in a blade, but when I do it will be in a blade that is valued almost exclusively for its historical and traditional qualities, and I will certainly make it clear that the steel is decent but not the best in consistency and performance. To me if a smith is folding up unknown scraps of junk and then telling the world it is at the cutting edge of steel technology after their magic hammers are done with it they just plain being dishonest, either with themselves or others.

 

[Kevin R. Cashen]

The subject of wear resistance in edge holding keeps cropping up here, and this is where the highly subjective nature of what is "performance" comes in. My subjective opinion is that I want a knife that will hold its edge as close to the as-sharpened state on a very wide array of cutting mediums. Soft and fibrous materials can be cut very aggressively with a jagged edge, games can be played and steels selected that will wear quicker but wear differently producing a more aggressive edge as is wears, but since this edge is not the original condition can one say it truly held its original edge? I have also observed that edges which do this quite well will often fade very quickly when cutting something of more substance. Specialization is the key point of what we are talking about here, if a blade is going to be used exclusively to cut soft fibrous materials one could make it cut like a laser, but I would inform the customer up front that it is not a general purpose knife. For a more general purpose knife that super aggressive action will be lessened to accommodate a wider array of uses.

In light of this I must admit to being irritated by guys who claim to make the most superior performing knives ever made but then carefully select the conditions and test mediums they will exclusively use to back up that claim. If I were going to just use a knife for fine slicing in the kitchen it would be an entirely different shape, steel, and heat treatment than I would have for a camp knife. This is why I stated earlier that I believe the word "performance" has been so used and abused in ambiguous and blanketing ways that it has become quite meaningless.

 

[Don Hanson III]

Mike, I feel you are an honest maker also and I really like your work. My BS on you was in response to your 'painting a picture with too broad a brush', just like I called Kevin on. Most forgers don't sell snake oil and most make excellent knives, without all the boastfulness. There are a few exceptions though and always will be.

You really come across as, putting down forged blades, differentially hardening, hand rubbed finishes, embellishment, fancy folders, and simple carbon steels. If I'm misunderstanding you, then I apologized. But no need to put down the knife styles and material choices of other makers.

I'm sure you have been at it longer than me. I started making knives in 81 or 82 and read everything that was printed in the late 60s and 70s. There was a lot of smoke and mirrors back then and still some today but I feel most makers and buyers are much more educated now days.

 

[Kevin Jones]

I have a lot of different irons in the fire right now, so I really don't have the time to spread myself thin posting in places I normally don't visit, so my participation here may be limited, but there is one point that I really had to touch on.

It has been asked how many forgers outsource their heat treatment, I think I read that as a good thing that they don't. It should be no secret that I am a bladesmith, I forge just about every blade I make, and yet I find myself siding with the stock removers almost every time this discussion is had. I sincerely believe that if you had 10 blades made by guys that grind and 10 blades made by bladesmiths and you randomly chose one from each category, your chances of getting a better blade are much greater in the stock removal side!
Why do I say this? Because nothing is more critical to proper steel performance than the heat treatment and if the stock removal guys are not equipped to do it right they seem much more likely to send it to a professional who is, and knows what they are doing. I have very rarely heard stock removers going on about bizarre mumbo jumbo or convoluted heating methods with kooky quenches that seem to defeat every principle that steel actually works by. Yet on countless occasions I have come very close to asking if a smith was joking when he told me his method heat treatment until realizing he was quite serious. Most stock removers I know understand soak times and proper cooling curves, they often came to knifemaking from another profession that taught them sound practices. Too many bladesmiths have read or learned from one of their gurus that all those spec sheets put out by the folks that made the steel simply don’t apply to knives, and if you just heat it up with a torch and drop it into the super-duper secret goop, you will make a magic blade that performs in ways the rest of the world can’t understand. As I said, I am bladesmith and I am exposed to the smithing culture everyday and I can sum up the internal condition of far too many forged blades with two words- fine pearlite.

Ease of sharpening is a term that always makes me wince. Sharpening is the wearing of the edge into a finer more useful shape, an edge that wears with ease in one way certainly does in another… If I were buying a knife I would want it to resist wear. Most knife blades max out at around 63HRC I can guarantee most abrasives that any stone could be made of will exceed that. The biggest factor I have ever encountered in difficulty in sharpening was edge geometry, reshaping the edge so you can actually engage it with the stone will usually allow a quick edge to be put on regardless of hardness. Diamond hones have also be mentioned, I can make steel pretty darned hard, but I ain’t that good- if you know what I mean.

Through proper (and reasonable) heating sequences optimum conditions can be set up in steel, but until many bladesmiths give up their delusional pursuits of magic blades, and endless reinventing the wheel just to spite those uppity spec sheet writers, I will still give the odds to the stock removers.

I have not participated in this thread as this subject ends up the same every time it's brought up and nothing I add will change that.

One thing I have noticed though is the broad generalizations being made in hopes of proving points on both sides.

Just one that stands out is Mr. Cashen's (not being sarcastic, just taught that until you actually meet someone they should be addressed as such) above, as picking 10 bladesmith and 10 stockremovers at random could very well yield 5 that don't know how to properly forge must less heat treat and as many stockremovers that don't know enough about metallurgy to even attempt to heat treat.

The bladesmiths I know, work with and collect have learned the proper methods of heat treat by trial and error over many years and hundreds of blades so I take exception to your "bizarre mumbo jumbo" statement.
Perhaps they should have foregone the agony and just "sent them out".
I appreciate as much of the knife making process as possible to be done by the maker's hand.

 

[Phillip Patton]

I also have stayed out of this thread because this conversation has happened countless times, with nothing new being added. But I did want to comment on a couple things you said.

Just one that stands out is Mr. Cashen's (not being sarcastic, just taught that until you actually meet someone they should be addressed as such) above, as picking 10 bladesmith and 10 stockremovers at random could very well yield 5 that don't know how to properly forge must less heat treat and as many stockremovers that don't know enough about metallurgy to even attempt to heat treat.

I think Kevins (Cashens) point was that if a stock removal maker doesn't know how to heat treat, he'll send his blades to someone who does, whereas a forger will assume that since the steels he's working with are simpler, then he can get away with less than ideal processes and equipment, and treat them himself.
And to some extent, that's true. If a simple carbon steel gets a less than perfect heat treat, it will probably perform better than a high alloy steel that didn't get treated properly.

The bladesmiths I know, work with and collect have learned the proper methods of heat treat by trial and error over many years and hundreds of blades so I take exception to your "bizarre mumbo jumbo" statement.
Perhaps they should have foregone the agony and just "sent them out".
I appreciate as much of the knife making process as possible to be done by the maker's hand.

They could have "foregone the agony" by reading the metallurgy books, and investing in accurate heat treating equipment.

Flame on!

For what it's worth, I forge and heat treat both regular forging steels and what are usually considered stock removal steels. No reason why we all can't do both, and do it well. The information and tools are available to everyone....