Performance: Forged vs Stock Removal

[Don Hanson III]

Mike, this was what I was calling BS on. Your use of the word most. If you would have used the word some or many, I would not have had a problem with it.

Most of the knives pictured here in these threads now days couldn't do an honest days work on a bet! Even if you would dare to try!

Mike

 

[Tai Goo]

It is that delicate balance between the creative, mind and the pure analytical logical side. I must admit the more pure logical thinking I use, the less artistic I become, when I am doing a lot of analytical work my knives tend to get rather straight forward and less fanciful; the two mindsets seem to be at odds.

However I think we were focusing on the optimum outcome for a using tool and maximizing the potential properties in the steel. If this is the case then we can all agree that heat treatment is the key, and with every steel having its own unique heat treating needs, if you don’t even know what steel you have in the blade nailing that process is simply not realistic. The guy who knows the chemistry in that blade and has the tools to tap precisely into will have you beat hands down, except of course in aesthetic or artistic quality, but then we are making tools not wind chimes.

Yes indeed, if I had a ton of free scrap steel that was all the same, I could work out how to properly treat it without an analysis. It would involve many hours of treating and testing with precise controls and my most valuable tool would be microscopic examination of the resulting structures (quick checks with brass rods, files and sawing on rope just wouldn’t cut it in my shop, no pun intended). It would consume vast amounts of time for me to be happy with the results. This is one more excellent reason for me to say that "free" mystery steel is the most expensive metal I could work with.

Not that other features and qualities cannot sometimes trump the pure performance aspect of things, as long as the smith is up front about things. I often use what I call “tootie fruity” damascus in my fittings. All the leftovers and odd scraps laying about my shop get mashed into these billets for the interesting visual effects they often give, and while I heat treat all my fittings as well, it is obviously not as critical and most wouldn’t expect a guard and pommel to be heat treated at all. But my blades are the business end of the knife, and I am nothing short of obsessive about the treatment and internal structure of that, you wouldn’t believe the things that keep me awake at night

But even at the blade level other qualities can sometimes trump the need for optimum physical properties. To keep my balance and sanity I have started making bloomery steel from raw ore, and while the resulting steel has no comparison to modern alloys it has a intrinsic value simply for what it is. I have yet to use any in a blade, but when I do it will be in a blade that is valued almost exclusively for its historical and traditional qualities, and I will certainly make it clear that the steel is decent but not the best in consistency and performance. To me if a smith is folding up unknown scraps of junk and then telling the world it is at the cutting edge of steel technology after their magic hammers are done with it they just plain being dishonest, either with themselves or others.

Kevin, I would just say that some smiths have more experience working with mystery steel, are better and faster at analyzing it and figuring out the optimum heat treat. "Optimum" is also subjective. By optimum, I just mean getting the steel to do what you want it to do, or expect it to do. Of course you would first have to conclude that the steel was worth it and/or what you are looking for. At that point it's no longer a mystery. Some smiths know what to look for and have good intuition. It's not a science, but a learned skill. If you have some kind of mental block about it, that's fine, but don't impose or "project" your short comings on to everyone else. I mostly use bought known steel, because I can't usually salvage the stock sizes and alloy types I want. However, I can definitely do a good job with salvaged or mystery steel. I also don't want to discourage anyone who likes using salvaged steel, thinks it's cool,... or say anything that would discredit them.

I don't completely trust what someone else, (manufacturer, smith, metallurgist or anyone) tells me a steel alloy is supposed to be and how I'm supposed to heat treat it. Mis-marked and misrepresented steel is more common than most people think. Also, no two pieces of steel are exactly the same. There can be variance in the steel from one end of the bar to the next, or from batch to batch. It's the smith's job to have the sensitivity and experience to recognize subtle difference and nuances in steel. These are skills you can't get from science, technology or from any book.

I have never made any outlandish or unreasonable claims about the long term performance of my knives, and don't intend to. I just try and make a consistently good knife, one that will do what it was intended to do well,… one that I like and enjoy making. I don't claim them to be the "best", because "best" is subjective,… and performance is subjective. I'm not concerned with what's "best". The vast majority of the knives I make actually do get used and the feedback has been very positive and encouraging over the years…

I also don't claim that my methods are best or right for everyone. However, they do work and are as valid as anything else. They do require skill and experience and the learning curve is steep. The way I work is really just the basic fundamental way that smiths have been working since the dawn of the steel age. Aside from using modern steels and limited power tooling,... it's traditional. I like the craft the way it is, and don’t want to see any radical changes in it under the false banners of “performance”, “technology”, or “science”. I want to try and preserve this craft,… not improve it or destroy it. Although I am not a complete purist, I want to represent this tradition and keep this craft intact and as un-tainted as I possibly can.

Just because some smiths need (or believe they need) salt pots, pyrometers, microscopes, Rockwell testers, and a library full of metallurgical trivia, etc… doesn’t mean everyone does.

 

[Kevin Jones]

I also have stayed out of this thread because this conversation has happened countless times, with nothing new being added. But I did want to comment on a couple things you said.

I think Kevins (Cashens) point was that if a stock removal maker doesn't know how to heat treat, he'll send his blades to someone who does, whereas a forger will assume that since the steels he's working with are simpler, then he can get away with less than ideal processes and equipment, and treat them himself.

Yep, I know what point Kevin was making. And I believe the forger can get by in many cases with less than ideal processes and equipment by gaining experience over the years by experimenting and trial & error.

And to some extent, that's true. If a simple carbon steel gets a less than perfect heat treat, it will probably perform better than a high alloy steel that didn't get treated properly.

They could have "foregone the agony" by reading the metallurgy books, and investing in accurate heat treating equipment.

And I suppose they have done the reading and research as well. I have somewhat limited knowledge on this subject as I'm just a collector, however my experience in construction and other fields tells me that "hands on" experience offers much more than "bizarre mumbo jumbo". I find examples of this very often when architects and engineers come out of school and don't realize what they don't know until everyday practical experience shows them.

Flame on!

For what it's worth, I forge and heat treat both regular forging steels and what are usually considered stock removal steels. No reason why we all can't do both, and do it well. The information and tools are available to everyone....

And I'm sure you do them well.
Knew there was a reason I stayed out of this thread.

 

[Stubai]

Custom knife makers are really highly talented 'artists' in my book that utilize great skill in the crafting of blades which are only limited to the imagination and ability of the craftsman. There will always be someone out there that dislikes certain custom blades because they are too expensive, impractical or odd looking. Others will flock to the custom designers as if they'd been manipulated by the drone of the Hamelin muse who knew a great deal about extravagant promises. The so called 'mystery steels' on the market put a smile on my face as the band plays the age old rendition of caveat emptor much too stridently for my taste.

Why visit a world class museum when you can view great works of art online? The answer may reside in enjoying the moment and the visual impact of actually being in the gallery, waist deep in the gaze of others that are transfixed by the massive display of talent at hand. I still like the design, heft and balance of my Hastings camp knife. Using it reminds me that the maker was a master 'artist' who not only understood how to use a hammer, but had heat treating down to an art.

Reading these posts may shed some newer light on subject, or leave us in a booze-befuddled conglomeration of opinions. Stock removal and forged knives both share places in my heart. Take care to regard the views of others, it may not do you much good but it will them.

 

[Broos]

Some interesting conversation no matter how or how much it has been discussed previously. Both methods will make a great knife, and you just need to decide which to buy next. When someone can make a stock removal blade with the edge retention of CPM-10V, enough toughness for real heavy chops into seasoned hardwood, and a hamon as pretty as some of these W2 blades pictured here, then maybe I will give up on forged blades!

i tried this with high quality ss blades. sharpened for half an hour (!), stropped for ten minutes (!), didn't work. as far as i know it has something to do with grain size, carbides, toothy edges, edge geometry etc. but, heck, i am not cliff!

My experience is that stainless can get sharp enough to do similar cutting tricks.

 

[brightred]

My experience is that stainless can get sharp enough to do similar cutting tricks.

i didn't mean that it is not possible, only, that i am not able to get high alloy steels as sharp as the so called carbon steels. i think the main reason for this is the amount of big carbides in the edge (especially in pm-steels and other high alloy steels like ats-34, but less in cheap ss steels like 420). they make the edge toothy, and that can be a big plus, depending on the task.

may i ask how you sharpen and hone your ss-blades?

best regards,
hans

 

[Tai Goo]

Kevin, you say your most valuable tool would be the microscope and examining the (micro) structures of the steel. The problem is that it only shows one teeny tiny little spot on the surface at a time.

I think looking at and testing the "macrostructure" of the blade is more important... and also, the macrostructure is a direct indication of the microstructures,... metallogically speaking.

The "macroscope" is my second most valuable tool! LOL

 

[canineforge]

I have never made any outlandish or unreasonable claims about the long term performance of my knives, and don't intend to. I just try and make a consistently good knife, one that will do what it was intended to do well,… one that I like and enjoy making. I don't claim them to be the "best", because "best" is subjective,… and performance is subjective. I'm not concerned with what's "best". The vast majority of the knives I make actually do get used and the feedback has been very positive and encouraging over the years…

I also don't claim that my methods are best or right for everyone. However, they do work and are as valid as anything else. They do require skill and experience and the learning curve is steep. The way I work is really just the basic fundamental way that smiths have been working since the dawn of the steel age. Aside from using modern steels and limited power tooling,... it's traditional. I like the craft the way it is, and don’t want to see any radical changes in it under the false banners of “performance”, “technology”, or “science”. I want to try and preserve this craft,… not improve it or destroy it. Although I am not a complete purist, I want to represent this tradition and keep this craft intact and as un-tainted as I possibly can.

This forging vs stock removal discussion is always a learning experience, especially for a new party in custom knives like myself, one who has enjoyed collecting a few, would like to eventually make a few, occasionally likes to use one to two, and became interested because of the tremendous variety in options available. The metallurgy is fascinating, and the forums have been such a great source for learning. So many options in ways to make, use and collect. So many willing to share their wealth of information.

Tai's two paragraphs above are exactly what I would want to hear from a maker I was ordering or learning from. A secure maker with a proven product. The majority of knives aren't purchased to perform until hell freezes over. Most are purchased with a specific use in mind, including non-use. A hunter my be intended to dress one deer per year, a chopper could be purchased for everyday use, an art knife may be proudly displayed for a lifetime. Isn't it nice to have so many choices!

- Joe

 

[Michael Lovett]

I have not participated in this thread as this subject ends up the same every time it's brought up and nothing I add will change that.

One thing I have noticed though is the broad generalizations being made in hopes of proving points on both sides.

Just one that stands out is Mr. Cashen's (not being sarcastic, just taught that until you actually meet someone they should be addressed as such) above, as picking 10 bladesmith and 10 stock removers at random could very well yield 5 that don't know how to properly forge must less heat treat and as many stock removers that don't know enough about metallurgy to even attempt to heat treat.

The blade smiths I know, work with and collect have learned the proper methods of heat treat by trial and error over many years and hundreds of blades so I take exception to your "bizarre mambo jumbo" statement.
Perhaps they should have foregone the agony and just "sent them out".
I appreciate as much of the knife making process as possible to be done by the maker's hand.

For staying out of this thread, you are in it a lot!

"Quote. "Trial and error over many years and hundreds of blades". Unless these makers were, are wealthy, they had to support the making process over the years to be able to make these hundreds of blades. They don,t grow on trees Sir! And just where do you think these hundreds of blades ended up. Some in the trash heap to be sure. But I dare say that most of them end up in customers hands who expect a certain amount of competence in the knife. Not just, "well it hardened so it will probably make a knife". We are supposed to be making Superior knives. Not just it will probably work. Why else should a customer spend the kind of money they do when any Jo Blow can go to Wally-World and buy a knife for very little money. That will probably work. For a little while. Probably. This is not what we became knife makers for. Just to get the big bucks. At least that isn't what I'm interested in. I want to put as superior product. If I can't, Or am unwilling study, research and learn my craft, there is no reason for me to make Lovett Knives in the first place!. I am not going to use my customers in trial and error test! They deserve a competent product. Do I make mistakes? Of course. But I don't try to make it a part of my customers own knives! There is many studies on steels, their uses, metallurgy, heat treating. It goes on and on. It is a continuing technology. Many top companies with tremendous resources test continuously. Innovations in steel is ongoing.. to ignore this and play only the trial and error game is simply ignorance. pure and simple.

I find your insinuation that research and education is a waste of time shocking! And very ill informed. I think the absurd thing is ignoring what is going on in ones own industry. . Not really knowing what is going on in the business. Being ignorant of what is going on in the business is one thing. But to be in the business, and to claim to be a professional in the business, to ignore all the research is more ignorant than anything I can imagine. To be ignorant, and proud of it to the point of being arrogant. I'm surprised there isn't a kid on the front porch playing "Dueling Banjos' here.

Don. Please take the time to look at the bulk of the Pictures posted in Custom Knives. I stand by my statement. It in my eyes is Most! Damed near all. And the smoke and mirror show is bigger than ever! Why do you think the poster (original) had reason to even ask the original question in the first place. If not for all the miss information out there, there would be no basis for the question in the first place.

My Manuela is of course German. After reading over this thread she has a comment. I think her statement is quite valid here.

In Europe, unlike here in the US the apprenticeship for new craftsmen is a time honored tradition. They learn from the masters the old ways, and the new ways. They are taught the failures of the past, along with the successes. And the reasons why certain techniques fail. And some succeed. They are not allowed to practice trial and error on the products produced for the customers. In fact, they aren't allowed to produce anything at all for sell. Not until they have studied they're craft and master they're work. this is one area where the ABS is doing some good.

It's a shame that apprentice programs are looked down on here. When a maker brings in an apprentice. (Called a helper here), They are looked down upon and it is said that the Maker is no longer doing all the work. A real shame! so much of what has been learned is lost. So many makers are producing knives with out knowing much of anything about what has been learned in the past. And when they discover something that works, they think they have invented the next best thing in Knife Making. Some even want to patten their new invention. Never knowing that it has been a part of the craft of years. One must study their Craft!

Many of you may be un-aware that in Japan. There are Knife making Schools. Not The old traditional teachings, but Collage courses in modern Knife Making. The work these grad's do is un-real. We had better wake up!

Mike

 

[Lorien]

Wow.
Well, anyway, I would never buy a handmade knife from someone who doesn't have a proven track record of producing high performance knives. That's a reputation thing.

I think some of the conversation here is really centered around a maker's reputation and how he goes about developing one. Nothing good comes of poor follow-through. That's to say absolutely nothing about method which is something that can and should be the free choice of an individual. There's more than one way to skin a cat.

Liars and cheats eventually get what's coming to them, and fortunately I'm the sort of person who doesn't usually fall for liars and cheats. Therefore, my knifelife has been most pleasant and quite fun, and everyone I've had dealings with I've got on well enough with.

But I'm selective, where some others may not be so lucky and fall for the hype. It's too bad, but it's human history/nature.

The best thing any handmade, custom knife consumer can do for the greater good is educate him/herself on their purchases. Accountability is a handy way to steer towards positive evolution.

 

[Kevin Jones]

For staying out of this thread, you are in it a lot!

A lot Mike? 3 post out of 110. Acuracy is not your strong suit is it?

"Quote. "Trial and error over many years and hundreds of blades". Unless these makers were, are wealthy, they had to support the making process over the years to be able to make these hundreds of blades. They don,t grow on trees Sir! And just where do you think these hundreds of blades ended up. Some in the trash heap to be sure. But I dare say that most of them end up in customers hands who expect a certain amount of competence in the knife. Not just, "well it hardened so it will probably make a knife". We are supposed to be making Superior knives. Not just it will probably work. If I can't, Or am unwilling study, research and learn my craft, there is no reason for me to make Lovett Knives in the first place!. I am not going to use my customers in trial and error test! They deserve a competent product. Do I make mistakes? Of course.

Mike here's an excerpt from a very good article in this month's "Garden & Gun" magazine on Jerry Fisk.

"After smoothing out the blade with a grinder, Fisk puts it through a series of test; he wants his clients to be able to use his knives for their intended purpose - say, as a field knife. Sometimes the blades fail the test. One year I broke 52 knives, he says.

Mike, you ought to pick up a copy.

I find your insinuation that research and education is a waste of time shocking! And very ill informed. I think the absurd thing is ignoring what is going on in ones own industry. . Not really knowing what is going on in the business. Being ignorant of what is going on in the business is one thing. But to be in the business, and to claim to be a professional in the business, to ignore all the research is more ignorant than anything I can imagine. To be ignorant, and proud of it to the point of being arrogant.
Mike

Mike, please show where I said research and education is a waste of time" Below is what I said.

"And I suppose they have done the reading and research as well. I have somewhat limited knowledge on this subject as I'm just a collector, however my experience in construction and other fields tells me that "hands on" experience offers much more than "bizarre mumbo jumbo". I find examples of this very often when architects and engineers come out of school and don't realize what they don't know until everyday practical experience shows them".

Most of the knives pictured here in these threads now days couldn't do an honest days work on a bet! Even if you would dare to try!
Mike

Mike just curious, do you ever go back and read some of the things you write? If you did perhaps you would reconsider sometimes.

 

[2knife]

Mike,
Maybe there is an important message in what you are saying, but it gets lost in the ranting and raving. Try to respect others, even if you disagree. No one is insulting you.
David

 

[Tai Goo]

This Knife has now been in his hands for over 18 years. It has never been refinished. It has never had to be resharpened. And Yes. It is well Used. Judge for your self. Just how this knife has held up. Do you have a knife that could match it's record? If there is a steel that can be hand forged that can match it's performance, I nor any one else has found it.

[/IMG]

18 years of use and never needed to be re-sharpened?

I have a drawer full of store bought butter knives, that I never need to sharpen.

Just messing with you Mike.

I actually think you've made a few good points in this thread. I do agree that there is an incredible amount of B.S. in the custom knife industry. The problem is that we don't always agree on what is B.S. and what isn't B.S. I also think that we need to be very careful that we don't become our own worst enemies and contribute to the B.S. It's a fine line there... and probably just a matter of perspective.

 

[Kevin Jones]

Mike,
Maybe there is an important message in what you are saying, but it gets lost in the ranting and raving. Try to respect others, even if you disagree. No one is insulting you.
David

Well said David.

 

[Garrett Schmidt]

None of those winning cutting comp. knives were forged! Nobody wants a differently tempered knife bending the blade in the middle of a competition. It's a neat way to show a hammon line. but of little use with the steels available today. It sounds exotic, but has been around for centuries. It's way old school. It usually means the edge is heat treated and the rest of the blade is nothing more than what cold roll steel is. It has never been thru the transformation to hardened Steel. There are a few that do it correctly, and fully harden and then draw the spine. But very few. This also will not give the new wave wild Harmon. So it has fallen out of favor. Now it is all about looks. Not performance.

I have a question about this. If you differentially treat the knife by only quenching the edge, doesn't that give the knife more strength since the spine is still flexible? Does the spine have to be hardened and then drawn in order to work effectively? Are you only refering to forged blades on this, or does it apply to stock removal too? If the edge quench is deep enough into the blade width, say half way, wouldn't that keep the blade from bending? I ask this not so much because of the hamon look but for performance reasons.

 

[gator68]

I have a question about this. If you differentially treat the knife by only quenching the edge, doesn't that give the knife more strength since the spine is still flexible? Does the spine have to be hardened and then drawn in order to work effectively? Are you only refering to forged blades on this, or does it apply to stock removal too? If the edge quench is deep enough into the blade width, say half way, wouldn't that keep the blade from bending? I ask this not so much because of the hamon look but for performance reasons.

Kevin Cashen has already written about this, in this thread. Start back about post #73 and see if that answers some of your questions here...

 

[Bill Siegle]

I am getting a kick out of this thread It appears that one can either breath through the mouth or through the nose and lots of folks have their favorite and will fight to the end to defend their method. The way I see it, as long as we're all breathing, the situation ain't that bad I can recall several conversations with Jim Schmidt way back when. I was just 17 when I met him and was more than a little wrapped up in the BS present in the market. I asked him some real hard questions that most folks would have avoided answering and he plainly explained away all of the myths out there from both methods of knifemaking. He was a great teacher and for a guy working in a small shop without many high tech tools,had a great understanding of steel. He gave a lot of credit to the guys from Ashokan because they'd meet,test, and SHARE. I think the ABS guys had a better understanding of steel from the start because, at least from what I saw in print, they were doing more experimenting. Yes some of that was to promote a degree of BS but at least the steel beaters were testing. Jim showed me how to get that "magic" in a blade and even showed me how the BS was done too I recall talking with him about two swords that were tested. One broke iron bars and the other cut a silk scarf. I was very impressed with the idea of a sword that could accomplish a clean cut on silk but Jim asked me the hard question......"Which sword would you want to cut ARMOR with?" The lesson was simple right tool/properties for the desired task. I find it sad that the truths he was sharing with me over 20 years ago would have gotten me strung up if talked about at a knife show or written in a magazine. I like seeing how many makers have stepped up and gotten more interested in the science of knifemaking and SHARE that info. I think a lot of what is being said here on both sides is that quality knives are the goal. That makes me smile

 

[Doug C]

I am getting a kick out of this thread It appears that one can either breath through the mouth or through the nose and lots of folks have their favorite and will fight to the end to defend their method. The way I see it, as long as we're all breathing, the situation ain't that bad I can recall several conversations with Jim Schmidt way back when. I was just 17 when I met him and was more than a little wrapped up in the BS present in the market. I asked him some real hard questions that most folks would have avoided answering and he plainly explained away all of the myths out there from both methods of knifemaking. He was a great teacher and for a guy working in a small shop without many high tech tools,had a great understanding of steel. He gave a lot of credit to the guys from Ashokan because they'd meet,test, and SHARE. I think the ABS guys had a better understanding of steel from the start because, at least from what I saw in print, they were doing more experimenting. Yes some of that was to promote a degree of BS but at least the steel beaters were testing. Jim showed me how to get that "magic" in a blade and even showed me how the BS was done too I recall talking with him about two swords that were tested. One broke iron bars and the other cut a silk scarf. I was very impressed with the idea of a sword that could accomplish a clean cut on silk but Jim asked me the hard question......"Which sword would you want to cut ARMOR with?" The lesson was simple right tool/properties for the desired task. I find it sad that the truths he was sharing with me over 20 years ago would have gotten me strung up if talked about at a knife show or written in a magazine. I like seeing how many makers have stepped up and gotten more interested in the science of knifemaking and SHARE that info. I think a lot of what is being said here on both sides is that quality knives are the goal. That makes me smile

Bill,
:thumbup::thumbup:
Two thumbs,way up,for your post!

Doug

 

[severedthumbs]

Lovett you have balls made of steel!!!

 

[Garrett Schmidt]

Kevin Cashen has already written about this, in this thread. Start back about post #73 and see if that answers some of your questions here...

Thanks man. I must have missed it among the large amount of responses to sift through. I now understand it all. Rock and roll.