PM2 Compresssion Lock vs the Cold Steel Holdout 2 Triad Lock

[ursamajor]

That's pretty far from a foregone conclusion. If Cold Steel was running every XHP blade at 62-64 it would be, but not nearly at 60-61. Honestly, given the similarities between the two blades I would guess thickness behind the edge would be the determining factor in any given contest.

I read (don't know if this is 100% accurate, I am sure the Spyderco faithful could weigh in) that Spyderco runs both their XHP and s30v to the same hardness of 59-60.

This fellow here ran a head to head cut test between a PM2 in s30v, and a PM2 in XHP. Both sharpened to the same edge geometries on a wicked sharp. The XHP came out noticeable ahead.

https://youtu.be/SdoNBtc6tmI

I don't really care if one person prefers a knife for their own reasons, or external reasons which are true. If you hate Cold Steel because Lynn Thompson is polarizing, that is fine. If you hate Cold Steel because they make videos cutting up meat, you have a right to your opinion. But to perpetrate that Sal Glesser is superior to Andrew Demko in the ability to design a pocket knife-be it in blade geometry, or ergonomics is false.

There is a situation going on here, where people are attempting to manufacture an echo chamber, hoping that if they continue to spew the same falsehoods, that it will be believed as truth. But I'll call the BS for what it is.

Andrew Demko is currently designing pocket knives that leaves competing designers fewer and fewer things to hide behind.

And spine whacks are most certainly not "pointless" for a knife to be able to withstand. I had a non assisted Kershaw Whirlwind, close from an inadvertent impact on the spine of the blade, and bite my index finger to the point of needing stitches. It was an enameled cast iron sink, and I had to reach up behind it to cut a dishwasher drain hose for an air gap. You could call it a failed spine whack.

However, if a folding knife is not going to be used for utility purposes, and only going to be opened and closed repeatedly, in front of the TV, and used to open mail (I believe the term that gets used in the exchange is "carried but never used"), then the ability to withstand spine whacks is pointless.

 

[Insipid Moniker]

I read (don't know if this is 100% accurate, I am sure the Spyderco faithful could weigh in) that Spyderco runs both their XHP and s30v to the same hardness of 59-60.

This fellow here ran a head to head cut test between a PM2 in s30v, and a PM2 in XHP. Both sharpened to the same edge geometries on a wicked sharp. The XHP came out noticeable ahead.

https://youtu.be/SdoNBtc6tmI

I don't really care if one person prefers a knife for their own reasons, or external reasons which are true. If you hate Cold Steel because Lynn Thompson is polarizing, that is fine. If you hate Cold Steel because they make videos cutting up meat, you have a right to your opinion. But to perpetrate that Sal Glesser is superior to Andrew Demko in the ability to design a pocket knife-be it in blade geometry, or ergonomics is false.

There is a situation going on here, where people are attempting to manufacture an echo chamber, hoping that if they continue to spew the same falsehoods, that it will be believed as truth. But I'll call the BS for what it is.

Andrew Demko is currently designing pocket knives that leaves competing designers fewer and fewer things to hide behind.

And spine whacks are most certainly not "pointless" for a knife to be able to withstand. I had a non assisted Kershaw Whirlwind, close from an inadvertent impact on the spine of the blade, and bite my index finger to the point of needing stitches. It was an enameled cast iron sink, and I had to reach up behind it to cut a dishwasher drain hose for an air gap. You could call it a failed spine whack.

However, if a folding knife is not going to be used for utility purposes, and only going to be opened and closed repeatedly, in front of the TV, and used to open mail (I believe the term that gets used in the exchange is "carried but never used"), then the ability to withstand spine whacks is pointless.

And Jim Ankerson did a similar test in which S30V came out ahead. I'm actually a fan of Cold Steel, but you're using hyperbole and stating your opinions as facts, which does nothing to strengthen your case.

 

[ursamajor]

And Jim Ankerson did a similar test in which S30V came out ahead. I'm actually a fan of Cold Steel, but you're using hyperbole and stating your opinions as facts, which does nothing to strengthen your case.

Hyperbole? Where?

I am familiar with that test. Also...

On his list here, he puts XHP hardened to 60 in a class above s30v hardened to 60. He also puts s30v in the same class as AUS8, when hardened to 58.5 (3 classes below XHP). Most likely, the man himself would have to weigh in. However, in my experience, for the hype and price, I have found s30v to be underwhelming. Not that it is an inadequate knife steel-but the value generally is not there dollar for dollar, when it comes down to performance.

What I have done is rank the steels in Categories based on edge retention cutting 5/8" manila rope. We are looking for big differences here, not ranking the steels in order such as 1,2,3,4,5. The categories or groups mean that one can expect those steels in that category to have close to the same performance as the other steels in the same category. The categories are ranked in order by edge retention, category 1 will have better performance than category 2 etc.

The Custom Phil Wilson knives in M390 (62) and ELMAX (62) are not added to the data, they wouldn't fit into any of the Categories due to the Optimal HT and cutting ability, the difference is off the scale percentage wise so it wasn't added.

The Testing Process is as follows:

Cutting 5/8" Manila rope on a Scale with wood to cut on. The scale was calibrated for the weight of the wood. Making 3 to 4 slicing cuts from back to tip using the least amount of down force needed to get the starting down force. Once that was established 20 cuts were made then down force was tested again and that continued until 20 LBS was reached.

All the knives started at 14 ~ 15 LBS of down force except for M390 because it cuts so aggressively.

Accuracy is to + or - 10 Cuts and + or - 1 LB of down force or 6%. This was verified doing a blind test of blades of unknown hardness until they were tested after. 2 blades of the same hardness and steel, sharpened the same and same model of knife.

RC hardness is + or - 1 RC on the steels that were tested as the standard of RC testing.

All edges were at 30 degrees inclusive and polished to 6000 grit on the Edge Pro, sharpness was tested by slicing TP clean.

The following data is the results that I got based on the above method, while not conclusive or the end all beat all data it is very accurate.

More steels will be added as they are tested.

Category 1

CPM-S90V (Military and Para 2) (60)
CTS-20CP (Para 2) (60)
M390 (Mule) (60.5)
CTS - 204P (Para 2)

Category 2

M390 (60)
CPM M4 (62.5)
CPM-S90V (59) (Manix 2 with 30 Degree Micro Bevel)
CPM-S60V
VANAX 75 (Kershaw Tilt)

Category 3

Vanax 35 (59.5)


Category 4

ZDP-189 (65)
CPM-154 (62)
ELMAX (60)
CTS-XHP (Military) (60+)
Super Blue (61.5)
CPM 3V (Big Chris)


Category 5

S30V (60)
VG-1
CPM - D2 (62)
N690
ATS-34 (59)
CPM-S35VN (59)
N680
ELMAX (58.5) Mule
D2 - Dozier K2

Category 6

INFI
154CM (61)
14C28N
CTS-B75P (Mule)

Category 7

VG-10
S30V (58.5)
AUS-8A
SG-2
5160 (55)
13C26N
X-15
440C (Big Chris)

Category 8

H-1
420 HC (Buck 110)

Category 9

CTS-BD1


Same method as above, but with a coarse edge, 400 grit congress Silicone carbide, more optimal edge finish for max edge retention to highlight the differences in the steels.

Steel - # of cuts - Model - HRC Hardness - Geometry Measurement - BESS

CPM 10V - 2400 - Phil Wilson Coyote Meadow - 64.5 RC - .004" behind the edge
CPM S125V - 2340 - Phil Wilson Bow River - 62.5 RC - .006" behind the edge - BESS - 621
CPM 10V - 1180 - Darrin Sanders Custom - 63 RC - .012" behind the edge
S110V - 1120 - Manix 2 - 62 RC - Regrind to .005" behind the edge.
CPM 10V - 1100 - Spyderco/Farid K2 - 63 HRC - .020" behind the edge.
CPM 20CV - 960 - Michael Raymond Starlit - 62 RC - .007" - .008" behind the edge
Z-A11 - 880 - Darrion Sanders Custom - 62.5 RC - .020" behind the edge/.070" spine thickness.
K390 - 820 - Mule - 62-64 RC
CPM S35VN - 760 - Darrin Sanders Custom - 62 - 62.5 RC - .006" behind the edge
CPM 4V - 740 - Big Chris Custom - 63 RC - .008" - .010" Behind the edge.
CPM M4 - 740 - Phil Wilson Custom - 65 RC - .015" Behind the edge.
S110V - 720 - Manix 2 - 62 RC
Cru-Wear - 700 - Phil Wilson Custom Bow River - 63 RC - .005" behind the edge.
S30V - 620 - Michael Raymond Estrella Custom - 60.5 - 61 RC - .006" behind the edge
S110V - 600 - Mule - 60 RC - .015" -.018" behind the edge.
S90V - 600 - Benchmade 940-1 - 59-61 RC - .018" Behind the edge.
CTS-XHP - 540 - Cold Steel Ultimate Hunter - 63.5 RC - .020" behind the edge
S90V - 460 - Military - 60 RC
S90V/CPM 154 - Para 2 - 460 - ? RC
CTS 204P - 420 - Para 2
ZDP -189 - 420 - Endura 4 - 65 RC
Niolox - 420 - LX Blades - 59 - 59.5 RC - .006" behind the edge - (BESS - 344.5)
M390 - 400 - Benchmade 810-1401 Contego 60-62 RC
M390 - 380 - Military - 61 RC
ELMAX - 340 - ZT 0770CF - ? RC
ELMAX - 340 - Para 2 - ? RC
AEB-L - 340 - Tim Johnson Custom - 60 RC - .006" behind the edge
S35VN - 320 - Chris Reeve Sebenza 25 - ? RC - .021" behind the edge
S30V - 300 - Military - 60 RC
PSF-27 - 280 - MT-19 - ? RC
Cru-Wear - 260 - Military - ? RC
CTS-XHP - 240 - Military - 60.5 RC
CTS-B75P - 240 - Mule
Sleipner - 240 - LionSteel PM2
Dozier D2 - 220 - Dozier K2
ELMAX - 220 - Mule - 58.5 RC
VG-10 - 160 - Stretch
AUS-8A - 160 - Recon 1
12c27 MOD - 120 - Opinel #8 - .012" behind the edge
XC90 - 80 - Opinel #8 - .012" behind the edge

 

[Ken44]

You can get the PM2 in other steels. Three are in the first category above.
Their S30V is very good, but they've made them with many types of steel.
I would take the PM2 over the CS no matter the steel though. Triad is my least favorite lock.

 

[Insipid Moniker]

Hyperbole? Where?

I am familiar with that test. Also...

On his list here, he puts XHP hardened to 60 in a class above s30v hardened to 60. He also puts s30v in the same class as AUS8, when hardened to 58.5 (3 classes below XHP). Most likely, the man himself would have to weigh in. However, in my experience, for the hype and price, I have found s30v to be underwhelming. Not that it is an inadequate knife steel-but the value generally is not there dollar for dollar, when it comes down to performance.

And yet the XHP Military at Hrc 60.5 registered 60 fewer cuts than the S30V Military at Hrc 60. Claiming any contest of edge retention between the two steels is a foregone conclusion is hyperbole. The performance is simply too close so it's probably going to be decided by other variables. The only exception is when XHP is hardened to really optimal levels, then it can leave S30V in the dust, but the only model CS has done that with so far is the Ultimate Hunter.

 

[ourgon]

I had two PM2. Nice lock but rest of the knife is 5/10 - handle too big or blade too small, G-10 feels like cheap plastic toy, both off centered, both with crooked cutting edge and that ugly choil. And all that for $150. Hold Out II design is better in XHP version, so I'll buy it in future. Especially that version is very nice.

 

[Yo Mama]

I read (don't know if this is 100% accurate, I am sure the Spyderco faithful could weigh in) that Spyderco runs both their XHP and s30v to the same hardness of 59-60.

This fellow here ran a head to head cut test between a PM2 in s30v, and a PM2 in XHP. Both sharpened to the same edge geometries on a wicked sharp. The XHP came out noticeable ahead.

https://youtu.be/SdoNBtc6tmI

I don't really care if one person prefers a knife for their own reasons, or external reasons which are true. If you hate Cold Steel because Lynn Thompson is polarizing, that is fine. If you hate Cold Steel because they make videos cutting up meat, you have a right to your opinion. But to perpetrate that Sal Glesser is superior to Andrew Demko in the ability to design a pocket knife-be it in blade geometry, or ergonomics is false.

There is a situation going on here, where people are attempting to manufacture an echo chamber, hoping that if they continue to spew the same falsehoods, that it will be believed as truth. But I'll call the BS for what it is.

Andrew Demko is currently designing pocket knives that leaves competing designers fewer and fewer things to hide behind.

And spine whacks are most certainly not "pointless" for a knife to be able to withstand. I had a non assisted Kershaw Whirlwind, close from an inadvertent impact on the spine of the blade, and bite my index finger to the point of needing stitches. It was an enameled cast iron sink, and I had to reach up behind it to cut a dishwasher drain hose for an air gap. You could call it a failed spine whack.

However, if a folding knife is not going to be used for utility purposes, and only going to be opened and closed repeatedly, in front of the TV, and used to open mail (I believe the term that gets used in the exchange is "carried but never used"), then the ability to withstand spine whacks is pointless.

Urgh....you again. Did you get your check yet from Cold Steel? You look like a salesman, instead of looking at reality. Demko is talented no doubt, but to say Sal is not as talented of a designer?!?! Now I truly can't take you seriously.

 

[Insipid Moniker]

Urgh....you again. Did you get your check yet from Cold Steel? You look like a salesman, instead of looking at reality. Demko is talented no doubt, but to say Sal is not as talented of a designer?!?! Now I truly can't take you seriously.

We don't always agree, but when we do...

Seriously, Mr. Demko is a fantastic talent, but without Mr. Glesser we simply wouldn't have the modern folder.

 

[ursamajor]

Urgh....you again. Did you get your check yet from Cold Steel? You look like a salesman, instead of looking at reality. Demko is talented no doubt, but to say Sal is not as talented of a designer?!?! Now I truly can't take you seriously.

Never said not as talented. I said not superior. You assumed the rest.

 

[ursamajor]

And yet the XHP Military at Hrc 60.5 registered 60 fewer cuts than the S30V Military at Hrc 60. Claiming any contest of edge retention between the two steels is a foregone conclusion is hyperbole. The performance is simply too close so it's probably going to be decided by other variables. The only exception is when XHP is hardened to really optimal levels, then it can leave S30V in the dust, but the only model CS has done that with so far is the Ultimate Hunter.

Did he test the Rockwells?

One could have been on the lower range, one on the higher-ome sitting at 59 and the other at 60

 

[Yo Mama]

Never said not as talented. I said not superior. You assumed the rest.

Keep it up man, this is gold really .

 

[Insipid Moniker]

Did he test the Rockwells?

One could have been on the lower range, one on the higher-ome sitting at 59 and the other at 60

Hrc is rockwell. The XHP was 60.5 and the S30V was 60.

 

[ursamajor]

Hrc is rockwell. The XHP was 60.5 and the S30V was 60.

I understand that. Did he infact check the Rockwell, or go off the list? For example, the Ultimate Hunter you described is said to be 60-61 by Cold Steel. I read your thread.

And his own info on the 2 blade steels is contradictory, as I have shown. He himself put XHP 1 to 3 classes higher.

 

[ursamajor]

Keep it up man, this is gold really .

Sorry Eric.

 

[Insipid Moniker]

I understand that. Did he infact check the Rockwell, or go off the list? For example, the Ultimate Hunter you described is said to be 60-61 by Cold Steel. I read your thread.

And his own info on the 2 blade steels is contradictory, as I have shown. He himself put XHP 1 to 3 classes higher.

If he lists it by the blade it got tested. And the contradictory information is kind of what I'm pointing out. The differences are probably due more to cutting geometry and inconsistencies in the cutting media than the steels themselves, as the performance of the steels is quite close.

 

[ursamajor]

If he lists it by the blade it got tested. And the contradictory information is kind of what I'm pointing out. The differences are probably due more to cutting geometry and inconsistencies in the cutting media than the steels themselves, as the performance of the steels is quite close.

I don't. I believe what he is referring to, is what some people call "working edge". I myself call what is referred to as a "working edge", dull. One of the reasons why I prefer even VG10 over s30v is that not only does VG10 get sharper, it holds that razor edge longer. Once that is gone, it is time to give the knife a few licks on a steel or strop. s30v loses that razor edge, just about as quickly as aus8, but at several times the price. Coincidentally Ankerson puts s30v in the same class as aus8 when comparably hardened.

 

[Insipid Moniker]

I don't. I believe what he is referring to, is what some people call "working edge". I myself call what is referred to as a "working edge", dull. One of the reasons why I prefer even VG10 over s30v is that not only does VG10 get sharper, it holds that razor edge longer. Once that is gone, it is time to give the knife a few licks on a steel or strop. s30v loses that razor edge, just about as quickly as aus8, but at several times the price. Coincidentally Ankerson puts s30v in the same class as aus8 when comparably hardened.

He's also done some testing demonstrating that for extreme sharpness steel type doesn't seem to matter much at all. Dulling of that edge seems to occur at a relatively uniform rate.

 

[ursamajor]

He's also done some testing demonstrating that for extreme sharpness steel type doesn't seem to matter much at all. Dulling of that edge seems to occur at a relatively uniform rate.

I'd agree. However, I still give the "edge" to XHP to hold it a bit longer than s30v. And all that aside, outside of somewhat being a curio, there is really no area performance wise, in which the PM2 tested offers anything above and beyond the knife it was ran against. TBT, it does not offer anything more performance wise when pitted against a FFG Endura in VG-10, save a weaker lock.

 

[Insipid Moniker]

I'd agree. However, I still give the "edge" to XHP to hold it a bit longer than s30v. And all that aside, outside of somewhat being a curio, there is really no area performance wise, in which the PM2 tested offers anything above and beyond the knife it was ran against. TBT, it does not offer anything more performance wise when pitted against a FFG Endura in VG-10, save a weaker lock.

Well, I find the PM2 much more comfortable in hand and also much easier to open and close than the Hold Out 2 to be honest, but those aren't precisely performance. Essentially, on paper I would take the Hold Out every time, but having had both in hand, give me the PM2 for most things. Now if the contest were between the PM2 and Ultimate Hunter it would be a different story.

 

[Stays Sharp]

I read (don't know if this is 100% accurate, I am sure the Spyderco faithful could weigh in) that Spyderco runs both their XHP and s30v to the same hardness of 59-60.

This fellow here ran a head to head cut test between a PM2 in s30v, and a PM2 in XHP. Both sharpened to the same edge geometries on a wicked sharp. The XHP came out noticeable ahead.

https://youtu.be/SdoNBtc6tmI

I don't really care if one person prefers a knife for their own reasons, or external reasons which are true. If you hate Cold Steel because Lynn Thompson is polarizing, that is fine. If you hate Cold Steel because they make videos cutting up meat, you have a right to your opinion. But to perpetrate that Sal Glesser is superior to Andrew Demko in the ability to design a pocket knife-be it in blade geometry, or ergonomics is false.

There is a situation going on here, where people are attempting to manufacture an echo chamber, hoping that if they continue to spew the same falsehoods, that it will be believed as truth. But I'll call the BS for what it is.

Andrew Demko is currently designing pocket knives that leaves competing designers fewer and fewer things to hide behind.

And spine whacks are most certainly not "pointless" for a knife to be able to withstand. I had a non assisted Kershaw Whirlwind, close from an inadvertent impact on the spine of the blade, and bite my index finger to the point of needing stitches. It was an enameled cast iron sink, and I had to reach up behind it to cut a dishwasher drain hose for an air gap. You could call it a failed spine whack.

However, if a folding knife is not going to be used for utility purposes, and only going to be opened and closed repeatedly, in front of the TV, and used to open mail (I believe the term that gets used in the exchange is "carried but never used"), then the ability to withstand spine whacks is pointless.

Interesting rhetoric from the Cold Steel side of things. While true that Sal is not God, it is interesting how a CS faithful describes Demko as this knife superstar aweing and shocking the knife world with every move he makes lmao. If one popular guy doesn't awe you, it also means the guy that does awe you probably doesn't do it for everyone either.

Are they on the same level? It would be a very personal answer and every one has the right to an opinion. Being 40 years his senior though, Sal has a big head start... Do we go by gross sales? Sheer amount of patents and innovations? Oh yes, we can also go by which knife, lock, and/or company we like better: There we can undoubtedly say that they are on the same plane