POLL: SURVIVE! EDC-4 Preorder Promotion. Would you participate?

[chiral.grolim]

Try not to get too hung up on marketing talking points. Most of this is going to come down to heat treat protocols and not exclusively the rockwell number. When you read the word "toughness" in their literature, read that as impact toughness. They measure how hard they can hit it in a controlled way, before the metal deforms or fractures. That's kind of a non issue with a blade this small. I'll take everything you guys are talking about into account before making a final decision. If I believe it won't be suitable for this application, trust me, I won't use it. I will say I do have a conservative optimism though, regarding this steel.

Not to sound critical, but impact toughness is certainly an important factor to consider in any cutting tool where media hardness can vary substantially, e.g. outdoor activity. The material property is given a value via controlled experiment, yes, but what the values predict is how the steel will perform when users apply energy into the blade and that energy is rapidly dissipated against a cross-sectional area - this is important because knives with good cutting geometry tend to have minimal cross-sectional area in the edge, making them very susceptible to impact fracture, resulting in chipping along the edge. In situations where the energy is dissipated slowly, strength (UTS) is key as that helps identify how much strain the blade can take in one direction or another before permanent deformation or brittle-fracture occurs. In knives, the concerning direction of strain tends to be lateral where the metal is thin, providing less support against side-loads and resistance to deformation - wavy edges that could later chip-out or indentations result. Indentations could also result from downward cuts where the edge lacks sufficient material support against a hard material, resulting in flat spots along the edge. A thicker edge & harder steel resist such deformations (hardness is directly related to strength).
But if, for example, the knife is dropped, or thrown, or struck with/against another material, energy transfer occurs very rapidly and steels behave very differently than their UTS values anticipate. If, when cutting, the blade slips or encounters a hard staple or bit of rock, impact toughness comes into play. A steel with low impact toughness may chip where one with high impact toughness will not. Again, impact toughness concerns not just the entire knife where catastrophic failure is a concern, it also concerns the tip and edge of the knife where a lateral load can be distributed against a very small cross-sectional area.
Here is a PDF from Phil Wilson on the matter: http://www.seamountknifeworks.com/articles/Knife_steel_impact_toughness.pdf

Now, all that said, one should take into account the relative toughness of various steels and different hardness: http://corse76.altervista.org/col.php?noti2=resilienza
As point of reference, ESEE uses 1095 @ ~58 Rc which has impact toughness ~30 J/cm^2.
M390 has impact toughness in the 30's even @ 63 Rc! It's tougher at 60 Rc, and at that hardness, M390's edge-retention as wear-resistance is among the best of any steel available: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...based-on-Edge-Retention-cutting-5-8-quot-rope


In summary, I definitely think that impact toughness is an issue with ANY knife blade, regardless of size. But the toughness offered by these steels is sufficient for most tasks even at very (read 'ridiculously') low edge-angles and offers wear-resistance beyond what most users would ever need and may ever have experienced....

I have NO problem with M390 in an outdoor knife... I just hope that my wife and my wallet don't have a problem

 

[PatrickKnight]

Not to sound critical, but impact toughness is certainly an important factor to consider in any cutting tool where media hardness can vary substantially, e.g. outdoor activity. The material property is given a value via controlled experiment, yes, but what the values predict is how the steel will perform when users apply energy into the blade and that energy is rapidly dissipated against a cross-sectional area - this is important because knives with good cutting geometry tend to have minimal cross-sectional area in the edge, making them very susceptible to impact fracture, resulting in chipping along the edge. In situations where the energy is dissipated slowly, strength (UTS) is key as that helps identify how much strain the blade can take in one direction or another before permanent deformation or brittle-fracture occurs. In knives, the concerning direction of strain tends to be lateral where the metal is thin, providing less support against side-loads and resistance to deformation - wavy edges that could later chip-out or indentations result. Indentations could also result from downward cuts where the edge lacks sufficient material support against a hard material, resulting in flat spots along the edge. A thicker edge & harder steel resist such deformations (hardness is directly related to strength).
But if, for example, the knife is dropped, or thrown, or struck with/against another material, energy transfer occurs very rapidly and steels behave very differently than their UTS values anticipate. If, when cutting, the blade slips or encounters a hard staple or bit of rock, impact toughness comes into play. A steel with low impact toughness may chip where one with high impact toughness will not. Again, impact toughness concerns not just the entire knife where catastrophic failure is a concern, it also concerns the tip and edge of the knife where a lateral load can be distributed against a very small cross-sectional area.
Here is a PDF from Phil Wilson on the matter: http://www.seamountknifeworks.com/articles/Knife_steel_impact_toughness.pdf

Now, all that said, one should take into account the relative toughness of various steels and different hardness: http://corse76.altervista.org/col.php?noti2=resilienza
As point of reference, ESEE uses 1095 @ ~58 Rc which has impact toughness ~30 J/cm^2.
M390 has impact toughness in the 30's even @ 63 Rc! It's tougher at 60 Rc, and at that hardness, M390's edge-retention as wear-resistance is among the best of any steel available: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...based-on-Edge-Retention-cutting-5-8-quot-rope


In summary, I definitely think that impact toughness is an issue with ANY knife blade, regardless of size. But the toughness offered by these steels is sufficient for most tasks even at very (read 'ridiculously') low edge-angles and offers wear-resistance beyond what most users would ever need and may ever have experienced....

I have NO problem with M390 in an outdoor knife... I just hope that my wife and my wallet don't have a problem

Your posts always seem to bring light to a slightly darkened tunnel, thanks for the data you linked as well.

 

[SURVIVE!]

Not to sound critical, but impact toughness is certainly an important factor to consider in any cutting tool where media hardness can vary substantially, e.g. outdoor activity. The material property is given a value via controlled experiment, yes, but what the values predict is how the steel will perform when users apply energy into the blade and that energy is rapidly dissipated against a cross-sectional area - this is important because knives with good cutting geometry tend to have minimal cross-sectional area in the edge, making them very susceptible to impact fracture, resulting in chipping along the edge. In situations where the energy is dissipated slowly, strength (UTS) is key as that helps identify how much strain the blade can take in one direction or another before permanent deformation or brittle-fracture occurs. In knives, the concerning direction of strain tends to be lateral where the metal is thin, providing less support against side-loads and resistance to deformation - wavy edges that could later chip-out or indentations result. Indentations could also result from downward cuts where the edge lacks sufficient material support against a hard material, resulting in flat spots along the edge. A thicker edge & harder steel resist such deformations (hardness is directly related to strength).
But if, for example, the knife is dropped, or thrown, or struck with/against another material, energy transfer occurs very rapidly and steels behave very differently than their UTS values anticipate. If, when cutting, the blade slips or encounters a hard staple or bit of rock, impact toughness comes into play. A steel with low impact toughness may chip where one with high impact toughness will not. Again, impact toughness concerns not just the entire knife where catastrophic failure is a concern, it also concerns the tip and edge of the knife where a lateral load can be distributed against a very small cross-sectional area.
Here is a PDF from Phil Wilson on the matter: http://www.seamountknifeworks.com/articles/Knife_steel_impact_toughness.pdf

Now, all that said, one should take into account the relative toughness of various steels and different hardness: http://corse76.altervista.org/col.php?noti2=resilienza
As point of reference, ESEE uses 1095 @ ~58 Rc which has impact toughness ~30 J/cm^2.
M390 has impact toughness in the 30's even @ 63 Rc! It's tougher at 60 Rc, and at that hardness, M390's edge-retention as wear-resistance is among the best of any steel available: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...based-on-Edge-Retention-cutting-5-8-quot-rope


In summary, I definitely think that impact toughness is an issue with ANY knife blade, regardless of size. But the toughness offered by these steels is sufficient for most tasks even at very (read 'ridiculously') low edge-angles and offers wear-resistance beyond what most users would ever need and may ever have experienced....

I have NO problem with M390 in an outdoor knife... I just hope that my wife and my wallet don't have a problem

Thank you, all of that is great and informative. All I was trying to point out though, especially after talking to the team at Peter's heat treat this morning is to not pay such attention to the marketing data. Specialty shops, like Peter's, can heat treat in a manner to bring out certain desired attributes in steels, beyond what the "standard" heat treat protocols allow.

I wasn't trying to say that impact toughness isn't important. I was trying to say that in a knife of this size, a super high impact toughness isn't my primary concern, as a blade like this will never see the impact abuse of say my GSO-10. I already knew the values of M-390 were more than sufficient for a chore cutter like the GSO-4.1, using the thicknesses and cutting geometry I did with Elmax. So, as I stated in my earlier post, the toughness was a non issue to me. I still stand by that statement.

And after chatting it up with the heat treat experts, I now know that the M-390 can be heat treated with little or no loss in toughness, when compared to Elmax and still have improved edge holding and a higher level of stainlessness over Elmax. Also, I know the question came up earlier and the M-390 target hardness will be 60-61Rc for these blades.

Please try to take what I'm saying at face value. I like to keep everyone informed and up to date on what is going on BUT I don't have the time to write exhaustive reports on everything. I try to lay things out in pretty simple terms, so everyone can understand but I also try to keep it brief, for the sake of time. Don't get my wrong, your statements are all accurate and very informative but they are things I do in fact take into account when designing my knives and selecting my blade materials.

If my updates are going to get picked apart over my choice of words or the brevity of my posts though, I'm going to be inclined to quit posting here.

PLEASE don't misunderstand, I do not mind you posting information or interacting with any of my posts. Not at all. I just don't like being taken to the tool shed because I didn't have my Johnny Cochran hat on while typing my post(s).

 

[schmittie]

I appreciate your candor and its sad to see anyone pick apart your comments. For what it's worth, I'm still just as excited!

 

[SURVIVE!]

I appreciate your candor and its sad to see anyone pick apart your comments. For what it's worth, I'm still just as excited!

It's all good. I just wanted to throw that out there. I really like sharing with everyone and also enjoy being the "available" business owner. I want to continue that, so I figured it would just be good to explain my position and hope that everyone can understand and appreciate where I am coming from. That's all. :thumbup:

 

[Ironwood666]

When does the promotion start?

 

[chiral.grolim]

...
I wasn't trying to say that impact toughness isn't important. I was trying to say that in a knife of this size, a super high impact toughness isn't my primary concern, as a blade like this will never see the impact abuse of say my GSO-10. I already knew the values of M-390 were more than sufficient for a chore cutter like the GSO-4.1, using the thicknesses and cutting geometry I did with Elmax. So, as I stated in my earlier post, the toughness was a non issue to me. I still stand by that statement.

Please try to take what I'm saying at face value. ... I try to lay things out in pretty simple terms, so everyone can understand but I also try to keep it brief, for the sake of time. Don't get my wrong, your statements are all accurate and very informative but they are things I do in fact take into account when designing my knives and selecting my blade materials.

No, please keep us updated, whether via your threads or e-mail or whatever! I began my post with "Not to sound critical" to show my appreciation for your efforts.

And I certainly take your statements at face-value as there are only the words to read
Which is why I thought it important to avoid any confusion that may be engendered by the statement that material property data like impact toughness is a "marketing talking point" that is a non-issue with small blades in general. I didn't want readers to think that Charpy values and other material property data aren't important - if they weren't why bother using M390 at all, or steel for that matter? And why heat-treat and back-temper?
Impact toughness as measured by Charpy is important because it tells users how brittle the blade is under circumstances that UTS doesn't register - something that you may know but others following you may not. It's important in cutting blades this size because, as Phil Wilson puts it, "A fine edge that is too brittle will get dull because it simply cracks away." Even a box-cutter needs a high impact toughness value... maybe moreso because of impurities in cardboard and how thin the blades are. A steel with higher impact toughness might be taken to a higher hardness and finer edge than another steel, vastly improving cutting performance & wear resistance. THAT is what M390 offers and why it is a GREAT choice for a blade like this one, and why I applaud you for making the effort (and using a HT-contractor of good repute) rather than simply using cheap ubiquitous 1095. Users will be able to get performance from your knives that they could never achieve with 1095. And that is something that I hope they all realize - that the material properties themselves lend a level of superiority to your products that helps justify the price over, say, a $30 Buck, and moreso than a similarly priced or more expensive BRKT. And that doesn't reach into other attributes of the design like ergonomics, blade profile, and even the cutting geometry. How many new owners of Bussekin knives have been disappointed by their factory-standard cutting geometry despite the touted properties of the steels? But when a maker combines an excellent steel with an excellent heat-treat in an excellent cutting geometry with blade profile and handle ergonomics to match...?? :thumbup:

So, in summary, I again applaud your efforts and am excited about each offering and promotion you run. Please keep up the good work :thumbup:

And please do not be discouraged from posting because of my remarks. If you prefer that I refrain from future posts in your threads, just drop me a PM.

 

[PatrickKnight]

I presonally love the fact you keep us on the up and up as to whats going on. I like the fact you make yourself so available thats something you dont get very often from a knife company. I just cant wait to place my order, and get one of these bad boys in my hand. I can already see it replacing my 3-5 inch blades as chiral said it has it all; great steel, amazing heat treat, perfect geometry, and awesome ergos. This blade may very well be the perfect small camp and woods knife.

 

[schmittie]

When does the promotion start?

It was last Friday. Sorry. Sold out in 90 seconds!














I kid. We are still waiting on the final word.

 

[SURVIVE!]

And please do not be discouraged from posting because of my remarks. If you prefer that I refrain from future posts in your threads, just drop me a PM.

Haha! No, we are good Brother. I don't mind you posting anything you feel inclined to share with everyone. Being so busy, I just felt a little battered, when you opened your line of comment with my quote. I was just short on time and felt at a disadvantage when you fired back with a long, thought out response. Even still, I say don't get too hung up on those chart numbers, for more than just a rough guide.

 

[Thomas Linton]

Yup. Looks like one of each. 0___0

 

[PatrickKnight]

I do have one question Guy. Will this release be more like the spear points you made or the drop points?

 

[Thomas Linton]

I do have one question Guy. Will this release be more like the spear points you made or the drop points?

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...DC-4-Preorder-Promotion-Would-you-participate

 

[HepatitisJ]

GSO-7 Pre order special?

 

[SURVIVE!]

GSO-7 Pre order special?

Hahaha! NO! I absolutely can NOT do any more promotions like this, after the GSO-4.1.

I don't make any profit, which is required to grow, expand and serve everyone better. Also, as we are getting this 3V grinding figured out in a production environment, we're finding that I'll absolutely need to raise my prices a little in the future, to offset increased grinding costs.

We have our blades ground in the hardened state because it makes a better finished blade BUT the CPM-3V REALLY wears out some abrasives during surface grinding and bevel grinding. The grinding wheels need dressed more often, due to the increased wheel wear, to maintain good, even grinds. Taking all we've learned so far into account, I can see why larger companies have not been quick to adopt CPM-3V in their production knives.

On the flip side of that coin, the noticeably higher toughness and abrasion resistance is EXACTLY why I'm sticking with CPM-3V for my production knives.

 

[Ironwood666]

Damn looks like I missed the promotion......wonder how I managed it....I guess I'm just stuck with what I've got for the next few years...

 

[SURVIVE!]

Damn looks like I missed the promotion......wonder how I managed it....I guess I'm just stuck with what I've got for the next few years...

You didn't miss the GSO-4.1 promotion. The GSO-4.1 revisions will be buttoned up by next week for sure and I'm hoping to open the store for preordering by next Friday. If it goes down like I'm planning I'll have materials moving the week after that and we'll be getting production going. This will be my very last just-above-cost promotion but I wanted to make sure everyone has a very Merry Christmas. Please consider getting involved if you are interested in picking up a very high quality user knife, at an unheard of price.

 

[PatrickKnight]

You didn't miss the GSO-4.1 promotion. The GSO-4.1 revisions will be buttoned up by next week for sure and I'm hoping to open the store for preordering by next Friday. If it goes down like I'm planning I'll have materials moving the week after that and we'll be getting production going. This will be my very last just-above-cost promotion but I wanted to make sure everyone has a very Merry Christmas. Please consider getting involved if you are interested in picking up a very high quality user knife, at an unheard of price.

Good I still have a week to figure out which steel I want. I was dead set on 3V then you throw M390 into the mix. Now I have to figure out if M390 will be tough enough for my uses. This will be the only knife I take with me into the woods along with a machete so I need to make sure it will be tough enough to handle all knife tasks that my machete wont. Or would be better stated as handle all knife tasks where a knife would be a better tool than a machete.

Just out of curiosity which would you choose for that role Guy?

 

[SURVIVE!]

Good I still have a week to figure out which steel I want. I was dead set on 3V then you throw M390 into the mix. Now I have to figure out if M390 will be tough enough for my uses. This will be the only knife I take with me into the woods along with a machete so I need to make sure it will be tough enough to handle all knife tasks that my machete wont. Or would be better stated as handle all knife tasks where a knife would be a better tool than a machete.

Just out of curiosity which would you choose for that role Guy?

I tend to use a knife the size of the EDC-4/GSO-4.1 for general cutting tasks and I bring something larger and more fun for splitting firewood and such. Personally I would prefer the M-390, simply for the outstanding edge holding. I never felt like it would fail me, even when I was batoning wood with it. With just a tiny bit of maintenance stropping here and there, it just never seems to get dull.

That being said, if you are really hard on your equipment, go with the CPM-3V. It can handle even the most demanding cutting chores and look good doing it. If I were leaving the house and didn't know where I was going or what I might be getting into, that's when I would specifically grab one of my CPM-3V knives.

I always tell people, just know what kind of user you are. Pick the steel based on what performance characteristics are most important to you. Then pick a knife style that will suit your needs and you won't be disappointed.

 

[underdog406]

You didn't miss the GSO-4.1 promotion. The GSO-4.1 revisions will be buttoned up by next week for sure and I'm hoping to open the store for preordering by next Friday. If it goes down like I'm planning I'll have materials moving the week after that and we'll be getting production going. This will be my very last just-above-cost promotion but I wanted to make sure everyone has a very Merry Christmas. Please consider getting involved if you are interested in picking up a very high quality user knife, at an unheard of price.

Hey Guy, a few questions about the GSO-4.1 pre-order. Is the pre-order held in limited quantities or does it have a due date? Will it be CPM-3V and M390 only or is there also a option for Elmax?


Cheers.