Queen Cutlery Company Closes

Oh my gosh, if this bit about employee theft is true, it sure is weird how history repeats itself. You know, as in Schatt & Morgan employees stealing from the company, them getting fired, and it all ultimately being the root cause for the original S&M company going bankrupt. Just weird, and sad at the same time... employees doing such things to cause troubles for those employing them :(
 
PocketKnifeJimmy said:
Oh my gosh, if this bit about employee theft is true, it sure is weird how history repeats itself. You know, as in Schatt & Morgan employees stealing from the company, them getting fired, and it all ultimately being the root cause for the original S&M company going bankrupt. Just weird, and sad at the same time... employees doing such things to cause troubles for those employing them :(
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Well.....not exactly! The Lead men were fired because the S&M management found out that these men were building knives and selling them on their own after working hours, and because they were in direct competition with Schatt and Morgan they were let go. To a man these were the lead men on the floor at Schatt and Morgan and with the void they left after being fired along with the changing financial situation in America, the Depression, is what led to the S&M downfall. I have never heard any accusations of any theft by the men fired that started Queen City Cutlery. And I have some Very good sources! :)

Dave
 
Well, my understanding is that the fired employess had been making skeletonized knives using their employer's material, (if that's true, that would be the theft part of it). There were other variables, of course, like the fact that these five fired employees had been important assets to the S&M operation.

In any case, it seems like there were some shady actions performed by these men, leading to them being fired. Them subsequently starting up their own Queen City company, did not help the S&M situation (Queen City becoming competition that likely drew many of S&M employees to go to Queen City' operation). Again, I know there may have been many variables causing the demise of S&M, but the actions of these five previous employees, may have been some of the biggest nails in the S&M coffin.

SCHATT & MORGAN CUTLERY COMPANY
.
This company, at one time, was one of the largest cutlery manufactures in the United States. It was originated when J. W. Schatt and C. B. Morgan formed the New York Cutlery Company in about 1890.
Both men had considerable previous experience within the cutlery industry.
Schatt had worked with the J. R. Torrey Company and Morgan had sold knives manufactured by the Canastota Knife Company as well as his brother’s Bayonne Knife Company.
Their business was at first a cutlery importing firm, but in 1897 that partners purchased the former C. Platts & Sons factory in Gowanda, New York, and named it Schatt & Morgan Cutlery Company.

Knives sold during the 1897-1902 period were stamped S & M New York and S & M Gowanda, N.Y. The partners’ initials crossed with and elongated “X”.
When this facility proved ill suited for further expansion, the partners business was moved to nearby Titusville, Pennsylvania and incorporated there.
Although the business headquarters had moved, Schatt continued to reside in Gowanda and work out of his hometown. In 1911, Morgan purchased Schatt’s interest but continued the company under the dual name.

The demise of this producer of fine knives begun about 1922 and was heralded with the announcement by American Cutler that “Queen City Cutlery Company of Titusville, PA manufacture of pocketknives, has been incorporated with a capital stock of $25,000”.
Another announcement that year reported that Schatt & Morgan’s staff was 60 men, about one third of its usual workforce.
The new cross town competitor had been started at the expense of Schatt & Morgan by five of the factory foremen producing extra parts after the shift, then assembling them into knives marked with the QUEEN CITY brand.

The company fired these employees, but found it difficult to continue to operate efficiently with inadequate supervisory personnel and with the former employees now devoting full time to making the competitive brand.
Schatt & Morgan Cutlery Company’s operations had practically ceased by about 1928, and in 1933 the Second National Bank took possession of the company by way of a sheriff’s sale.
The irony of this saga was Queen City Cutlery’s subsequent purchase of the building, machinery, and stock of parts owned by the old company and subsequently moved into the S & M factory.
 
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Lot of IF here. Easy for people on the internet or even lawyers to talk vaguely about employee theft, but before there's any concrete proof it's just conjecture. IF it has been going on before the Daniels take-over, that's a really long time for it to go undetected....odd. Is it embezzlement or workers taking knives to sell themselves, if, if.? Creative accounting is also a kind of employee theft.

Whatever it's still if in my book nor does it explain weak QC and other issues.....

Thanks, Will
 
Will Power said:
Lot of IF here. Easy for people on the internet or even lawyers to talk vaguely about employee theft, but before there's any concrete proof it's just conjecture. IF it has been going on before the Daniels take-over, that's a really long time for it to go undetected....odd. Is it embezzlement or workers taking knives to sell themselves, if, if.? Creative accounting is also a kind of employee theft.

Whatever it's still if in my book nor does it explain weak QC and other issues.....

Thanks, Will
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I have no issues with my 6 Queen-made knives...other than which one to carry! :)
 
I have no issues with SOME of my Queen knives (more than 6) but most certainly issues with others. I tend to think this reflects quite a lot of peoples' experiences, including those with the best will in the world towards this distinguished knife company.....But then, some people may peddle the idea that hysterical nay sayers have dragged down the company without any foundation or proof and this is the sole reason it has closed down.;)
 
Sounds like we're talking about two different things here - theft from S&M around 1930 and theft from Queen since 2000. Or am I the one who is confused?
 
Side question - There are some nice looking S&Ms for sale right now that appeal to me. I've been very reluctant to pull the trigger given the horror stories about recent Queen quality and the lack of warranty due to bankruptcy. I've got a Queen large stockman in D2 bought new about 12 years ago that's OK quality for a user, but I sure don't want anything less well made. I don't want to be mailing knives back and forth with a dealer, either. Is it worth taking a flyer? Should I be waiting for a deep discount since these might be hard for dealers to move? What do you think?
 
gaj999 said:
Side question - There are some nice looking S&Ms for sale right now that appeal to me. I've been very reluctant to pull the trigger given the horror stories about recent Queen quality and the lack of warranty due to bankruptcy. I've got a Queen large stockman in D2 bought new about 12 years ago that's OK quality for a user, but I sure don't want anything less well made. I don't want to be mailing knives back and forth with a dealer, either. Is it worth taking a flyer? Should I be waiting for a deep discount since these might be hard for dealers to move? What do you think?
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I would first try asking the dealer/seller to inspect the knife for any issues that you dislike. That should help prevent the hassle of a return for both you and the dealer. Most dealers will do that but some may not.

You should be able to make a confident purchase that way. Just be sure to include all of your pet peaves so the dealer understands what you want.
 
gaj999 said:
Side question - There are some nice looking S&Ms for sale right now that appeal to me. I've been very reluctant to pull the trigger given the horror stories about recent Queen quality and the lack of warranty due to bankruptcy. I've got a Queen large stockman in D2 bought new about 12 years ago that's OK quality for a user, but I sure don't want anything less well made. I don't want to be mailing knives back and forth with a dealer, either. Is it worth taking a flyer? Should I be waiting for a deep discount since these might be hard for dealers to move? What do you think?
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I wouldn't get anything much newer than the stockman you have now if you are very particular. Good ones exists, but the odds in getting it dropped dramatically around 2008.
 
BigJim2x said:
According to the March 2018 issue of Knife Magazine the cash flow issues are "rooted in what state auditors believe to be a case of employee theft that began before the Daniels' purchase of Queen... The hope and intent is to have the company back up and running in less than six months, bringing back the furloughed workers, but possibly with a different managing staff."

Woo hoo

Jim
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I don't think this bodes well, but more because it's being suggested and because it was allowed to happen for so long if it did. I hate to see a company's failure be blamed on employee theft publicly when it so obviously had other issues (QC, management, marketing, dealer and consumer trust). I also think it's strange that it went on for so long if it did. How? Was no one paying attention? No driver at the wheel?

Will Power said:
I have no issues with SOME of my Queen knives (more than 6) but most certainly issues with others. I tend to think this reflects quite a lot of peoples' experiences, including those with the best will in the world towards this distinguished knife company.....But then, some people may peddle the idea that hysterical nay sayers have dragged down the company without any foundation or proof and this is the sole reason it has closed down.;)
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Prices grew, quality shrunk, marketing didn't pick up the slack. Hopefully they can turn it around I think it'd be best for the industry and the consumer.
 
Now that the story is out, I think it is OK to expand on details. The employee that stole from the company was the ex-President, who has been an employee since the 1980's. She was fired in Spring of 2017, when her actions were found out. The amount of money stolen was quite substantial, and Queen had gotten into a bind with suppliers and subcontractors because of it. Additionally, she had many friends/relatives that she had hired at Queen, which added another layer of difficulty. When the Daniels took over in 2012, it was to save Queen from going under. They retained most of the management from the Servotronics era, which in hindsight was a mistake.

It may take a while to build themselves back up to former production levels. They'll have to get on good terms with heat treat, suppliers, etc. I hope they can do it.
 
GermanyChris said:
I'm youngish (41) and own traditional pocket knives as well as modern the problem is it's 2018 I don't want dead trees, dead animal parts, or plastic on my knives. Give me an aluminum/titanium frame and bolsters, CF/Micarta/G10 covers and a stainless blade and I'll buy all day long, but everyone thinks a high end slip joint needs steel and dead stuff. If these companies want to continue they need to appeal to me and the younger and we like different stuff.
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FYI, Linen, denim, canvas Micarta, all dead plant material. Got anything you want to sell?;)
 
They'll also have to get on good terms with furloughed employees, what are they supposed to do, sit around waiting to be called back to a job that may or may not exist in an uncertain future? What kind of talent and experience will be available to run the machinery and bang out new product? I feel for those who were working there, and suddenly found themselves out of work, can't help but wonder how many have moved on to something else, and how they would respond to an offer to return to work. I imagine that time is of the essence if a trained pool of employees were to be recouped by an employer.
 
sitflyer said:
They'll also have to get on good terms with furloughed employees, what are they supposed to do, sit around waiting to be called back to a job that may or may not exist in an uncertain future? What kind of talent and experience will be available to run the machinery and bang out new product? I feel for those who were working there, and suddenly found themselves out of work, can't help but wonder how many have moved on to something else, and how they would respond to an offer to return to work. I imagine that time is of the essence if a trained pool of employees were to be recouped by an employer.
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Yes, I agree. Likely they are not willing or able to wait 6 months to come back, and will find other employment. However, some of those employees were relatives of the culprit, and may not be asked back regardless.

knifeswapper said:
I can neither confirm nor deny the rest of what was said - linkedin says Jennie Moore.
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Yes, that is correct.
 
Mind you, if it took FIVE years for the management to discover that an ex-President was embezzling (or whatever) from them it shows they were not at all on top of managing or running the company in a very fundamental way. You might say incompetence.....
 
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