Quenching Oil Question

[Tai Goo]

I think a blend of ancient wisdom and modern science will be my ticket. There is always a compromise. No sense fighting the known when there is so much left unknown. You all have my respect as well.

Sounds like a good plan to me.

 

[R.C.Reichert]

The more narrow-minded our views are, the less and less we see the whole picture. That's my philosphy in a nutshell.

 

[ginshun]

Is it even possible to get some Parks #50 or AAA that won't cost somebody $100 or more? and that they'll have to search around for a source of?

Thats more than I spent on everything that I bought to make the first and only knife that I have made. I can see looking into it assuming I were a knife maker that makes knives that are going to be sold to other people or if I were unsatisfied and trying to perfect my knives, but for somebody just fooling around for the time being I don't think its worth it.

I am not disputing that it very likely works better than ATF or canola oil, but I can go to Wal-Mart and buy a gallon of ATF for $10 and it will probably last me for all the knives that I make in the next year. This thread really seams to have taken a hostile turn. It seems like some people are getting mad at others for not taking their advise. I don't think anybody is really even disagreeing with anybody else, I know I am not.

It just seems that in searching I have seen several times where somebody is asking how to do a "backyard" heat treat, and people jump into the thread telling the person that they shouldn't be doing it at all with what they have, or that they should be using some specialty quenching oil. That or they jump on a soap box when other people suggest using anything other than that.

I agree that its best for people to know what they are doing right and what they are doing wrong, but it is still nice to get options, even if they are not the perfect thing to do. I guess I just see that a lot of people who hop on here are in the same situation as I am, where they just want to make knife or two to try it out, and they are using primitive techniques to do it. To somebody in that situation, suggesting that they use Parks #50 or AAA as their quench oil is not the most well thought out suggestion. Its good information, but not terribly useful to the given situation.

I am trying to get my point across without offending anybody or making them think that I don't appreciate their advise, because I do. I just think that sometimes the answer to the question needs to be tailored to the specific situation and not generalized.

Its kind of like knives themselves. If a person comes on bladeforums saying they don't have any knives and don't usually carry one, but are thinking about getting one for EDC, suggesting that they buy a CRK Sebenza (or insert you favorite $400+ edc here) is probably not the best advise, even if is better than any knife they are likely to buy. This guy would most likely be a lot better served by the suggestion of a Benchmade Monochrome (or insert your favorite $40 knife here). Is the Monochrome as good as the Sebenza? Absolutely not, and few if any would argue that it is, but it'll work. Same thing with Park's #50 and ATF or canola oil. Not the best analogy maybe, but still helps to get the point across I think.

That's my highly inexperienced take on it anyway. Flame away.

 

[AcridSaint]

If we're worried about pure economics we can use any 10xx series steel with the higher range of manganese like 1080 and 1084. These will work much better in your ATF than 1095.

The question of this thread was

"I just ordered some McMaster Carr 28 second quenching oil for O1. Would it be acceptable to use this oil for 1084 and 1095? If it is not acceptable what would a good quenching oil be for 1084 and 1095 that can be bought in 5 gal or less quantity at a resonable price?"

I don't think that ATF or other wal-mart specials are "good quenching oil" for 1095.

Also, once again, brine is cheaper than oil

Is it even possible to get some Parks #50 or AAA that won't cost somebody $100 or more? and that they'll have to search around for a source of?

Thats more than I spent on everything that I bought to make the first and only knife that I have made. I can see looking into it assuming I were a knife maker that makes knives that are going to be sold to other people or if I were unsatisfied and trying to perfect my knives, but for somebody just fooling around for the time being I don't think its worth it.

I am not disputing that it very likely works better than ATF or canola oil, but I can go to Wal-Mart and buy a gallon of ATF for $10 and it will probably last me for all the knives that I make in the next year. This thread really seams to have taken a hostile turn. It seems like some people are getting mad at others for not taking their advise. I don't think anybody is really even disagreeing with anybody else, I know I am not.

It just seems that in searching I have seen several times where somebody is asking how to do a "backyard" heat treat, and people jump into the thread telling the person that they shouldn't be doing it at all with what they have, or that they should be using some specialty quenching oil. That or they jump on a soap box when other people suggest using anything other than that.

I agree that its best for people to know what they are doing right and what they are doing wrong, but it is still nice to get options, even if they are not the perfect thing to do. I guess I just see that a lot of people who hop on here are in the same situation as I am, where they just want to make knife or two to try it out, and they are using primitive techniques to do it. To somebody in that situation, suggesting that they use Parks #50 or AAA as their quench oil is not the most well thought out suggestion. Its good information, but not terribly useful to the given situation.

I am trying to get my point across without offending anybody or making them think that I don't appreciate their advise, because I do. I just think that sometimes the answer to the question needs to be tailored to the specific situation and not generalized.

Its kind of like knives themselves. If a person comes on bladeforums saying they don't have any knives and don't usually carry one, but are thinking about getting one for EDC, suggesting that they buy a CRK Sebenza (or insert you favorite $400+ edc here) is probably not the best advise, even if is better than any knife they are likely to buy. This guy would most likely be a lot better served by the suggestion of a Benchmade Monochrome (or insert your favorite $40 knife here). Is the Monochrome as good as the Sebenza? Absolutely not, and few if any would argue that it is, but it'll work. Same thing with Park's #50 and ATF or canola oil. Not the best analogy maybe, but still helps to get the point across I think.

That's my highly inexperienced take on it anyway. Flame away.

 

[ginshun]

If we're worried about pure economics we can use any 10xx series steel with the higher range of manganese like 1080 and 1084. These will work much better in your ATF than 1095.

The question of this thread was

"I just ordered some McMaster Carr 28 second quenching oil for O1. Would it be acceptable to use this oil for 1084 and 1095? If it is not acceptable what would a good quenching oil be for 1084 and 1095 that can be bought in 5 gal or less quantity at a resonable price?"

I don't think that ATF or other wal-mart specials are "good quenching oil" for 1095.

Also, once again, brine is cheaper than oil

point taken.

Had I read this thread before I ordered the steel for my first knife, I would not have ordered 1095. I didn't realize the differences between it and the other 10xx steels were significant, especially when it came to quenching them. Things as they are though, I had a blade ready for HT that was made of 1095. Being too chicken to use brine or water for fear of loosing my first blade, ATF was the next best choice based on what I read. Like I have said, the blade is hardened. Whether it is martensite or pearlite or just crapite, the world will never know. It sharpens up to a nice fine edge though, so I guess it will do. The ATF will have to do for the second blade too and maybe the third, because I still have a little over half of the 1095 left.

next time I'll find some 1080 or 1084.

 

[caribooblades]

What I don't understand is why people keep needing someone or something to qualify their work for them... If you can't tell if the knife cuts or if it got hard, what good is any of it?... O.K?... and then there's the answers you get back which are equally pathetic. They sound like a conglomeration of pseudoscience and narrow minded opinion.

I don't buy into the whole superior blade every time thingy... It's not that simple. I believe in different quenching mediums at different times for different reasons. With 1095, if hardness is the main consideration, I use water. If I can sacrifice some hardness in favor of a tougher blade, without the risk of the water quench, I use oil. I've used transmission fluid, motor oil, mineral oil and a variety of vegetable oils. They all work, but all have a slightly different effect on the steel and are each appropriate under certain circumstances.

Heat treating is not a black or white, right way or wrong way subject.

I quenched my first tools, made from spring steel, in used motor oil. F-ck I can't believe I did that. Was a long time ago. It quenched well but I am sure it took 10 years away from my life.
An old timer leaned over my table at a show, looked me in the eye and said, "fresh cow piss, that’s how my father hardened his knives. His knives could cut".
Could you imagine quenching in cow urine?... Wafting through your shop.
It would probably work with some steels. Maybe even 1095. Warm, salty with a little acid and nitrogen.

Working with all kinds of steel, quench and tempers is an adventure, fun, unique and it's experience.

Oh ya. I haven't had a phone for 12 years. You've got to try it sometime.
Just let go...

Scott

 

[AcridSaint]

For sure we make do with what we have, definitely didn't intend to offend anyone who is short on options. Just want to make the info clear and available for folks starting out or trying to get a better idea of what's "next". I'm sure it'll make a nice first knife, I saw the design the other day.

point taken.

Had I read this thread before I ordered the steel for my first knife, I would not have ordered 1095. I didn't realize the differences between it and the other 10xx steels were significant, especially when it came to quenching them. Things as they are though, I had a blade ready for HT that was made of 1095. Being too chicken to use brine or water for fear of loosing my first blade, ATF was the next best choice based on what I read. Like I have said, the blade is hardened. Whether it is martensite or pearlite or just crapite, the world will never know. It sharpens up to a nice fine edge though, so I guess it will do. The ATF will have to do for the second blade too and maybe the third, because I still have a little over half of the 1095 left.

next time I'll find some 1080 or 1084.

 

[Kevin R. Cashen]

...I'm not going to try and tell anyone what the best way to make their knives are. I'm not pushing my way on to others or trying to prove anything. I've said over and over that my way isn't for everyone, nor is it necessarily the best way. I simply don't believe that there is any one best way for everyone or every blade or every situation. If you want to be spoon fed you've come to the wrong guy. I'm not your mommy. I want you to do the work yourself and find out what works and what doesn’t work…

But Tai I gotta give you this- you at least appear to totally walk the walk that you talk on traditional bladesmithing. If a smith is making bloomery iron, forging it in charcoal with a bellows, and then filing and hand working entirely to shape they stand on firmer ground when casting stones at modern methods.

But I encounter many smiths that have to somehow draw an arbitrary line at what is too “modern”, “Fancy” or “scientific”. They work with 784XZ70 steel in a gas forge with a thermocouple hanging out of it and squash it down with a hydraulic press before whisking it off to a mill for shaping and then get all ruffled and in my face for all my talk that has nothing to do with “traditional” smithing. ATF, 10W40 and many other supermarket quenches have no more traditional standing in historical bladesmithing than Houghto-Quench 3470 (there are others beside Parks). What ancient smithing tradition used the gas forge? And then we get into the tricky business of picking a time period that represents traditional smithing. Coal forges and blowers are new fangled inventions when you play that game. Why stop there however? Steel and iron are simply new fangled materials that replaced traditional bronze which itself totally killed the proven tradition of chipping them out of stone.

If a smith wants to totally emulate the blades of James Black then he should indeed ignore the advice involving digital controllers and Houghton oils and make the coolest frontier style blades he can. The process will be every bit as much of the value as the finished product in determining the value of that blade. But if he holds those methods up as more valuable in any quantifiable way, soon as he buys a bar of 5160, or flips on a Bader grinder he has severely undercut his own argument.

 

[J.S. Carter]

Thanx Tai for answering my question. it has given me good things to think about and apply. Kevin, Mr Reichart and all else thanx again for the education i'm most appreciative.

 

[Nathan the Machinist]

My interest in "serious" knives originated when my $30 pocket knife failed to perform and I looked into why. Actually, both me and my father in law had the same kind of pocket knife. I used mine in the shop, he used his in the field as a well driller. I would sharpen his knife after he had used it to open sand bags and it deteriorated into a toothpick over time. They didn't hold an edge very well and were always needing to be sharpened in order to cut well. The tipping point came when I was opening a box of beer and my knife just touched the glass inside, ruining the edge because it was so soft. Junk. Inexpensive stainless steel factory knives that don't hold an edge have done more for custom knifemakers than anything.

I've had similar experiences in the kitchen...

My point is: people buy my knives because they out perform anything they can buy at walmart. My designs are competent (I'm no artist like Tai, but I'm competent) but so are many of the designs at walmart. My knives sell because they cut well (geometry) and they hold up and hold an edge well (HT). To me, the main things that sets a custom knife above a "bought it at walmart" knife is the grind, steel and heat treat. For most knife users, there is nothing wrong with the walmart knife designs, it is mainly the steel and HT that sucks.

If you are a custom knifemaker, and you botch your heat treat, and you sell a sub-par knife, you are giving ammo to people like Cliff Stamp who advises people to stay away from custom knifemakers because our knives are hit and miss. That is a widely held, and much deserved belief. And it is one that Kevin Cashen, with his sound HT advice, has done a lot to remedy.

With the exception of artists like Tai and Kevin who make works of art, for most of us if our knives don't work better than the walmart stuff, why should anybody buy them? And assuming you know what you're doing with your blade geometries, it is the HT that will make a great knife stand above a good knife. Using a good fast quench oil for 1095 is important because if it isn't martensite the sharp cutting edge will fail when I accidently bump it on a beer bottle. Or a deer hanging hook. A quality HT oil will make this a non-issue and you won't be guessing about it and selling your best guess as a premium cutting tool. That is what Kevin has been hammering in our heads again and again and I fear one of these days he is going to stop trying, and that will be our loss.

 

[Tai Goo]

Kevin, I've also said over and over that I am not a purist. I look for a balance that suits me.. and I also believe that an artist has a responsibility to represent the time frame in which he works the way he sees it... I'm not anachronistic. I am a contemporary bladesmith who feels a strong connection and respect for the bladesmiths who came before me… For a lack of a better word I think of it as "traditional" or representing a tradition... in essence no different than what has been going on sinse the beginning.

On the other hand strict tradition can lead to stagnation, and I am definitely not a traditionalist in that sense.

To me perfection seems just as boring as predictability. I can’t think of anything more loathsome and boring than finding the “best” way to do any procedure and following it the rest of my life… especially since I don’t believe there is a “best” way. It leaves no room for surprises good or bad, which both can be learned from. I like the challenge of the unknown… I like to rely on my own ingenuity with the resources I have at hand at any given moment, and not some prepackaged scientific system for perfection that always works for everyone... Especially since I don’t believe in “perfection”! Boring, boring, boring…

I don’t think going out and spending money is always the best solution… or always the answer.

However, I don’t mean this to knock anyone else’s approach to the craft and feel we should all follow our own path and see where it leads. Like I said, If they are happy, then I’m happy… But I will defend my approach if I feel some are trying to intimidate me and others like me.

If it's all sounds contradictory, I can live with it,... because I am not a simple person, nor do I feel any need to always think in a straight line, inside the box... boring, boring, boring...

I'm multifaceted and complicated, O.K.?

 

[R.C.Reichert]

One thing that I have done in the past, (I don't know if it is really a very scientific thing to do) I take the knife that I made and whack it edge for edge against a different knife such as a Buck knife or something similar. If my knife bears more damage than the other, I re-do the heat treat. Never have any of my knives, even with questionable heat treating failed the test. Does that say anything worthwhile or is it not a real test of edge strength for a blade? This is my own home-version of a half-ass rockwell hardness test. Pretty funny eh?

 

[Dan Zawacki]

I think that many people mistake Tai's reverence for artistic integrity for willful ignorance. I would like to venture the thought that Tai understands the metallurgy involved in making knives much better than many would give him credit for, and a great deal more than many of us (with some very notable exceptions).

It is, however, not where his emphasis lies, not as interesting a topic to him as other facets of the craft. That can be misinterpreted by some folks (myself having been once included in that number) as being deliberately unwilling to learn a "better" way.

However, I would like to point out that art is, by definition, the act, process, or product of creative self expression. By treating knifemaking as an art, Tai is able to express himself clearly through his work. Many makers don't even realize what their knives may be saying about who they are as human beings. Perhapse Tai may not know exactly what a particular knife may say to a member of the community at large, but he is acutely aware of the fact that his work does express his being in a fairly profound way.

When you stop to think about that fact, it really can make all of the numbers, formulae, and recipe's seem unimportant by comparison.

The only place where I would differ with his approach is in the verbal and / or written expression of why he does things the way he does. His methods are comfortable and familiar to him, and allow him to produce art that expresses himself in a way that he finds appealing, natural, and instinctive. In that way, he is not much unlike Don Fogg, who couches his approach to blade shaping in slightly different verbage, but nonetheless comes to it from a very expressive angle. I don't think anyone would argue that Don Fogg pushes any sort of "metaphysical metallurgy to make his heat treating seem acceptable in his own or other's eyes."

Being a rank beginner at this whole game, I am indebted to Mr. Cashen to an untold degree for helping to make clear that there is a distinct line between solid information and voodoo magic (and hopefully ne'er the 'twain shall meet!) I don't think I could begin to call myself an artist (although I aspire to do so someday) however, I will never legitamately get to that point if I don't have a solid understanding of what it is I am doing to the materials I choose to work.

In that vein, I find the economy of improvisation where it comes to quenchants to be a false one. How many blades does a smith have to ruin, completely trashing the steel they are made of to make one good knife? While the answer to that question is tied up in a lot of factors, the choice of quenchants is not an insignificant one of those factors. Above and beyond that, for those of use who aspire to make this addiction at least partially pay for itself, our reputation as a bladesmith will likely depend heavily on the performance of our knives. I, for one, don't want my reputation being based on anything less than the absoloute best I can produce. That means (in part) learning how and why a given quenchant is the most appropriate choice for the steel in hand, and then learning to use it to its best advantage.

 

[Tai Goo]

I'm just trying to offer an alternative perspective. I may seem forceful at times, but let me make it clear that it is only an alternative... and anyone can learn to achieve consistently good results this way...

I also appreciate and respect the fact that Kevin is sincere, and only trying to save folks some time and some of the same types of hardships that I’ve been through…

However, If I could go back and do it all over again, (though it's not for everyone), I wouldn’t change a thing. I’m very happy where I’m at right now.

It wasn't about the rewards but,... It's been a very rewarding personal journey...

 

[Kevin R. Cashen]

...That is what Kevin has been hammering in our heads again and again and I fear one of these days he is going to stop trying, and that will be our loss.

Nathan, I have no greater artistic level or even wisdom than anybody else who wants to make nice edged tools. I never want to be anybodies guru, for me guru and charlatan are synonymous. All I did to get to where I am was the simple yet seldom considered act of asking questions instead of accepting whatever I was told. If I am at all different than any of my knifemaking colleagues it is because one day I decided I needed some hard evidence and verification for the claims I was being fed. If I could have one wish for this whole business it would be that everybody could be endowed with a healthy skepticism and an endless hunger for solid facts, along with the courage to ask even the best known windbags to back up their claims*. If enough people can just pick that up from my diatribes, that I could vanish tomorrow but that trend would go on, I would be a man very happy with my achievements.

*That is one that always has puzzled me. I get a lot of credit for taking on names that new guys don’t dare to… why? They can’t break your legs or have you run out of the business as far as I know. I do believe it is disrespectful for a newbie to tell a veteran how to make knives, but it should always be acceptable for anybody to ask any “expert”, real or not, to explain their claims with facts. Nobody should ever be beyond respectful questioning.

 

[Tai Goo]

I really don't know how to tell you this Kevin,... but you are one of the gurus.

 

[Destraal]

I really don't know how to tell you this Kevin,... but you are one of the gurus.

Those who don't want power are the ones who should have it
I want to thank everyone involved in this thread, it has been an eye opening one and has changed my opinions on heat treating.

 

[R.C.Reichert]

I hope I wasn't disrespectful to you in any way Kevin, or any of you all for that matter. It was never my intention. There's a lot bulls**t in this world and sometimes it takes a while to realize when you're talking to a "real" professional or Guru. There are more than a few masters of the knife making art on this thread. I am not one of them.....yet. There has been a lot of sound advice on this thread, and I think anyone who reads it will benefit greatly from doing so, I know I sure did.... So how about that half-ass, edge-whacking hardness test, or should I just go bang my head on a tree?

 

[richie191]

I have yet to meet anybody who intentionally sets out to do something half-assed even on a one time or hobbyist basis. It is human nature to say that if this is worth the time doing it is worth doing the best you can. In the making of the knife the three most important things for performance are- 1. The heat treatment, 2. The heat treatment and 3. The heat treatment. So just as I doubt anybody sets out to make the worst looking knife they can, I also assume they want advice on how to achieve the very best heat treatment they can.

Wow, great post Kevin. The whole thing I mean, not just the little tidbit above. You really know your stuff. You're a great writer too. Grad school? I believe it is completely true that the three most important things are all the heat treatment. Go to Ebay and search "Thita". The guy makes beautiful knives. Absolutely gorgeous. And I used to wonder why they were so cheap ($400 is cheap for a knife that beautiful). But I emailed him today, and he told me that they are HEAT blued. So the blade is probably RC50. At that point, it became a $400 paperweight. Art is one thing, but the whole point of a knife is to CUT STUFF! If it doesn't function, it isn't a good knife! If you want to heat blue damascus, it should be a bolster. But how do people color damascus without losing the temper?

Give me some thoughts on this. I thought about heat coloring a mosaic damascus blade, and then re-treating the edge. After it is colored, I would immerse the spine in water with just the edge showing above the water. Then with a torch, heat the edge up to orange, quench it, and then temper at 400 degree for two hours three times. How does that sound? Other than that, I've also found a way to color damascus without using heat, but other guys are much better at it (my colors are dull). Any tips on chemical coloring? Great post(s) Kevin!

Also, I would like to mention that I understand where Thai is coming from. Even if it is RC50, it still cuts through an apple. But what if you want to use it as an everyday knife? After opening a couple of boxes or whittling a little, the blade becomes dull. At the same time, if you will never cut anything harder than an apple, or nothing at all, then I suppose it really doesn't matter. So the heat treatment of a blade matters only if it matters, if you know what I mean. I LOVE KNIVES!

God Bless,
Richard

 

[Fox Creek]

Gee Wilikers Tai & Kevin...It has taken me 10 years to learn how to forge and HT Dirk blades, with my stuff & forge of course. I have a bigish tank of 50/50 30W R & O Oil and bulk ATF. I find that the problem for getting a hardened blade that is dimensionally stable, i.e., not warped, is to slow the quench down. When it is 28 F outside the forge, a frost on the ground, and you guench that blade in cold oil, pull it out and see the black edge and spine and the blood vein of red heat at he heart, and then into the oil again to finish and rest, and pass the file test, plenty hard at the edge, springy over all. Tai will dig, but Gee, it makes a hell of a good blade. It's all good guys.