Quenching Oil Question

Thank you all for explaining the brine and the W1/W2 to me. I appreciate it :thumbup::D

Uhm Tai... I have a question. I have nothing but respect for your work, and philosophies about smithing. But what do you quench in? I apologise I dont mean to sound like a smart ass, but hear me out please...this is a quenching oil thread. and we the students have all read Kevin and Mike's recipe for blade success. Which if learned and followed will produce a superior blade every single time, assuming correct tool design is acheived first. So and please correct me if I am way off base, but to use some of your own philosophies, why would you, someone who takes great pride in designing and making knives by sweat equity and shear passion. Who it seems takes spirit walks via the repetitonal nature of knife making, not promote expanding that journey (for surely our craft exemplifies the adage "the journey is not just the the first and the last steps but everyone inbetween them" ) into the understanding of the medium we have chosen to express our art, that being steel, and if there happens to be a perfect match, between steel and oil that when combined at the height of their passion (Martensite start or Ms) for truely if as you say "steel be female in nature" than surely quenchants are male and the one oil that brings about full plate martensite transition with out undue stress be that steels ideal mate? since it both compliments and completes our passions creations to be fully and wholly good? and not just ok enough to get the job done? :confused:
 
J.S. Carter said:
Thank you all for explaining the brine and the W1/W2 to me. I appreciate it :thumbup::D

Uhm Tai... I have a question. I have nothing but respect for your work, and philosophies about smithing. But what do you quench in? I apologise I dont mean to sound like a smart ass, but hear me out please...this is a quenching oil thread. and we the students have all read Kevin and Mike's recipe for blade success. Which if learned and followed will produce a superior blade every single time, assuming correct tool design is acheived first. So and please correct me if I am way off base, but to use some of your own philosophies, why would you, someone who takes great pride in designing and making knives by sweat equity and shear passion. Who it seems takes spirit walks via the repetitonal nature of knife making, not promote expanding that journey (for surely our craft exemplifies the adage "the journey is not just the the first and the last steps but everyone inbetween them" ) into the understanding of the medium we have chosen to express our art, that being steel, and if there happens to be a perfect match, between steel and oil that when combined at the height of their passion (Martensite start or Ms) for truely if as you say "steel be female in nature" than surely quenchants are male and the one oil that brings about full plate martensite transition with out undue stress be that steels ideal mate? since it both compliments and completes our passions creations to be fully and wholly good? and not just ok enough to get the job done? :confused:
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That is the strangest post I have ever read on this forum...


:thumbup:
 
Nathan I know it sounds strange it I sat and thought about not hitting the submit button. but to me in this and other threads that Kevin and Fitzo recomend brand x oils for x steel becuase they turn out high performance blades every time. (assuming everything else is right) Tai seems to advocate using whatever is on hand, which may make a less than superior blade. as well as scoffing at the hard metalurgical scientific facts about martensite production that Kevin and Fitzo submit as proof of their opinion.
I just want to know why.
 
The ancient Japanese swordsmiths didn't know all the scientific metalurgical facts behind what they were doing, nor did they have access to micrographs or rockwell hardness testers. But that is what made them masters. All our scientific advanced and special laboratory concocted formulas still can only come close to the things they did. Not to scoff at science or anything, obviously science has it's place. Without all today's advances there probably wouldn't be half as many bladesmiths today who could call themselves masters. I'm sure 500 years ago they faced all the same problems we do today, but they had to face it from a basis of widsom. The ability to take sub-standard materials, not to mention tools, and make something amazing, I think that say's something in itself.
 
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And yes, the masters of 500 years ago, probably were able to adjust the carbon content of their steel in some manner, and adjust the quench for the desired results, but It still wasn't scientifically proven under the microscope. They probably botched a good number of blades themselves in the learning process.
 
What I don't understand is why people keep needing someone or something to qualify their work for them... If you can't tell if the knife cuts or if it got hard, what good is any of it?... O.K?... and then there's the answers you get back which are equally pathetic. They sound like a conglomeration of pseudoscience and narrow minded opinion.

I don't buy into the whole superior blade every time thingy... It's not that simple. I believe in different quenching mediums at different times for different reasons. With 1095, if hardness is the main consideration, I use water. If I can sacrifice some hardness in favor of a tougher blade, without the risk of the water quench, I use oil. I've used transmission fluid, motor oil, mineral oil and a variety of vegetable oils. They all work, but all have a slightly different effect on the steel and are each appropriate under certain circumstances.

Heat treating is not a black or white, right way or wrong way subject.
 
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Tai Goo said:
What I don't understand is why people keep needing someone or something to qualify their work for them... If you can't tell if the knife cuts or if it got hard, what good is any of it... O.K?... and then there's the answers you get back which are equally pathetic. They sound like a conglomeration of pseudoscience and narrow minded opinion.

I don't buy into the whole superior blade every time thingy... It's not that simple. I believe in different quenching mediums at different times for different reasons. With 1095, if hardness is the main consideration, I use water. If I can sacrifice some hardness in favor of a tougher blade, without the risk of the water quench, I use oil. I've used transmission fluid, motor oil, mineral oil and a variety of vegetable oils. They all work, but all have a slightly different effect on the steel and are each appropriate under certain circumstances.
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Tai, one thing I don't get is why you're willing to use terms like "tough" and "hard" and yet reject any effort to systematically measure and understand those qualities.

If I have a controlled environment, and I make 10 blades, give them similar heat treatments, and test them for toughness, then I can confidently say that the blades I produce with that approach will be tough.

You seem to think that a 1095 blade quenched in some kind of oil ought to be tougher (though we shouldn't think too deeply about why), and that's good enough for you.

But if you're winging it, you have no way of knowing that a knife is "tough" unless unless you destroy every blade you make.

I suspect that you do follow some kind of system. Maybe your system is a little more intuitive than some other makers, but it's still based on experience and observation--just not applied as rigorously.

Maybe you're content to leave a lot to chance, and that's OK, I guess, but don't beat up on those who want to learn so they can do the best job possible on the heat treating of their knives.

In my mind, it comes down to this question: Why settle for "good enough" when "excellent" takes only a little more effort?

Josh
 
R.C.Reichert said:
The ancient Japanese swordsmiths didn't know all the scientific metalurgical facts behind what they were doing, nor did they have access to micrographs or rockwell hardness testers. But that is what made them masters. All our scientific advanced and special laboratory concocted formulas still can only come close to the things they did. Not to scoff at science or anything, obviously science has it's place. Without all today's advances there probably wouldn't be half as many bladesmiths today who could call themselves masters. I'm sure 500 years ago they faced all the same problems we do today, but they had to face it from a basis of widsom. The ability to take sub-standard materials, not to mention tools, and make something amazing, I think that say's something in itself.
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Mr. Reichart, you just lost me. I have a few unspoken rules about when a conversation is no longer worth my effort, which I have developed over years of discussion of these topics, one of those is when the other party manages to combine the two fallacies of appealing to authority and appealing to tradition into the one colossal modern myth based fallacy of the infallible Japanese smith. It tells me that the party is only interested in popular conceptions and not risking that manufactured world view by looking any deeper. I am not saying that is the case with you, I am just saying that is why using the Japanese smiths as the ultimate authority is a huge red flag to me.

This modern mythos has so puzzled me that I have taken the time to also slice up my share of both old and modern katanas, look at them under the microscope as well Rockwell testing, and I am here to say that despite what you have been told in all the magazines aimed at mall ninja, Quentin Tarantino and Highlander films, the ancient smiths of Japan could have benefited GREATLY from some modern analysis. Their swords had all the same issues that every other culture had and that we can still struggle with to this day. They got away with what they did because their very simple steels were perfectly matched with their methods, we work with entirely different materials today with their own special requirements.

I also reject the 'lifetime of experience that we cannot match' argument when I consider that I started making blades when I was around 10 years old and have not taken a total break from it yet. Indeed I was not born with a room full of metallurgical equipment, I spent years edge packing, quenching into goops, glops and potions and obediently following all the garbage written in the magazines. My current methods are the end result of a lifetime evolution driven by a desire to know more and improve after I took the enormous step of questioning the traditional wisdom, much of which turned out to be attractive stories that happened to be totally false.

Many folks would rather I quit with all this information because the custom knife world doesn’t need fixing, but the reason I spend time writing this stuff is because of how victimized I felt when I learned I had been sold a line of hooey by the hyped up gurus of this business, and I get very agitated when I see a new generation of potentially great knifemakers that will have years wasted by the same prepackaged nonsense. Knowledge is indeed power and you know you have the real thing when it doesn’t necessarily make you feel good or comfortable but instead totally shakes up your world view and causes you to rethink everything. Every bit of real knowledge I ever encountered was not an ego boost as it made it very clear how ignorant I really was, yet gave me thrill over how much more there was yet to learn.

I wish you luck on your journey to finding that thrill, but I know I cannot drag you down that path against your will, that is not how real knowledge works.
 
I wouldn't choose fine pearlite tough blade over a tough (tempered to low RC) martensite blade, even it was designed superbly... Knife is a tool, the only thing you need to survive in wildlife. I need to depend the performance of my knife. It wont save my life if it looks beautiful.

I was mostly using tough and hard adjectives to define my knives. When I did some "scientifically" reasonable HT recently these adjectives were none-sense comparing the recent knives to previous ones. Honestly Its hard to say it but I will say it anyway; I wouldn't buy one of the knives I made before. The steel Austenised and quenched properly looks and feels way different than the fine pearlite steel. Just try to HT properly one blade (doing exactly the same things that "scientific" folk say), you'll understand what I'm talking about. Design will be the same anyway, so why not to try something proven to be good.
Tai Goo said:
"I believe in different quenching mediums at different times for different reasons. "
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To obtain different results I think a knife maker has to obtain firstly martensite. There are different ways to reach there of course: Salt baths, austemper, interrupted quench etc. But the quenching has to be quick and even enough to escape from pearlite nose and not to produce microcracks and deformations. Once you obtain the fine martensite blade you temper differently to gain different results. Tempering is the key to customize the HT results not the quenching medium IMO...
 
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No offence intended. I am still with full intent going to find the best methods for making a knife. I did not mean to refer solely to the Japanese and their craft, but that of the old time frontier bladesmiths, the europeans, etc... It's like the old saying. The foolish man doth think himself wise, the wise man knows himself to be the fool. I am a fool. Maybe someday I'll be wise too.
 
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Edit: There have been several posts since I started this. I am writing between working on things at the office.

The Japanese "masters" were few and far between. There are examples of poor heat treating out there as well as decent heat treating. There are many out there who will tell you that ancient Japanese heat treating does not rival what we can accomplish today. There's a lot of hype out there about them just like everything else.

Early European smiths used iron with a little carbon infused by the forge. Their swords were tough and did a fine job. Maybe we can just go back to low carbon steels.

Maybe we can start drilling holes in heads to release demons or rely on acupuncture to get rid of cancer for folks. Some cultures still cook with cow chips, I'll stick to gas and electric even though the former works just fine.

Science might not be necessary to make a working knife, but it sure is nice when it's available. Everything talked about in this thread is affordable and easy to do, the old way being "acceptable" isn't a good enough excuse for me to avoid doing everything I can to make the best blades possible.

Why would I even consider a sub-par quench when the right stuff is so readily available? I won't, but everyone can do whatever they want. Unlike Tai, I don't make knives for a living. Also unlike Tai, I do not have to push any "metaphysical metallurgy" to make my heat treating seem acceptable in my own or other's eyes.

I'm not a master of knife making or heat treating, but I do believe that the best way to come close is to start with basic principles founded in the known. Work in the unknown all you want, but don't try to sell it to me as anything else.
 
R.C.Reichert said:
No offence intended. I am still with full intent going to find the best methods for making a knife. I did not mean to refer solely to the Japanese and their craft, but that of the old time frontier bladesmiths, the europeans, etc... It's like the old saying. The foolish man doth himself wise, the wise man knows himself to be the fool. I am a fool. Maybe someday I'll be wise too.
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You still have my utmost respect for how you respond to other views and how you have conducted yourself in this discussion. It is a pleasant deviation from my past experiences.

Despite Mr. Reicherts level headedness this topic still managed to do it again. I have said it a dozen times before but I must say it again- nothing will agitate a room full of bladesmiths more than the audacious logic of suggesting that something called "quenching oil" just may be the logical thing to use for "quenching":confused:

There is some sort of psychology surrounding this topic that escapes me, but it is deep and powerful. You can get people to believe that known alloys are great, that proper soaks and controllers with thermocouplers are wonderful, you can get them all eagerly reading Ed Bain like it is the bible. But getting them to believe that anything off the super market shelf may not be designed to do the job just as well as products made specifically for quenching is a step too far. It makes me feel like some kind of fool fighting with unwilling smiths in front of a quench tank as I force their hand to put the blade into the #50, all while they scream for their bacon grease goo instead. That is silly, and I am not interested in doing anything of the sort.

Look where this discussion has went yet again. You will notice that there are plenty of threads that include the words "home made quenchants" or "commonly available" that have no posts from me. I have better things to do, knowing exactly where it will go. I get e-mails for advice weekly, if not daily, the ones that get very long and detailed replies are the ones that are open to the answers they ask for. The shortest replies go to the guys who start right out saying they are quenching a mower blade in crisco or blackened 10w40. If they are not willing to put any more time and effort into their pursuits than that why should I be expected to give a significant portion of my time to it?

The only reason I can ever be lured into these discussions anymore is that sound advice comes from experience, and the only folks who seem to totally dismiss formulated quenchants are those who have never tried them because
their Wesson oil works just fine. I believe if there are any people reading that may want alternative advice based upon quatifiable data and comparisons they should have that advice available as well.
 
I think the unknown is a lot more interesting than the known… and where we need to look if we want to learn anything new.

I'm not going to try and tell anyone what the best way to make their knives are. I'm not pushing my way on to others or trying to prove anything. I've said over and over that my way isn't for everyone, nor is it necessarily the best way. I simply don't believe that there is any one best way for everyone or every blade or every situation. If you want to be spoon fed you've come to the wrong guy. I'm not your mommy. I want you to do the work yourself and find out what works and what doesn’t work…

I will say this though, geometry also effects heat treat. In other words small or thin pieces will cool at a faster rate than large thick pieces. Thin pieces are also more subject to warping and or cracking in the quench, etc., etc., etc... Geometry effects everything... and there are a lot of other variables to consider in heat treating.
 
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I have a 20 liter pail of fast quenching oil on order as of right now. Don't know if it is perfect, but... from the Shell Voluta series. Maybe it'll be better than bear grease. Its about all I can find up hear and it's a special order. I maybe have some of the ancient philosophies or ideals, but this is 2008, not 200AD.
 
I hear stuff all the time that doesn’t sound metallurgically correct, make sense or seem logical or practical. However, if they are happy with their results and their customers are happy, then who am I to argue? I also have to assume that they know more about what they did than I do, because I didn’t stand there and watch the entire process start to finish. So,… if they are happy, then I’m happy. :)

However, on the other side of the coin, I’m not going to rush out and change anything I’m doing just because someone else claims their way is better. Misery loves company.
 
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R.C.Reichert said:
I have a 20 liter pail of fast quenching oil on order as of right now. Don't know if it is perfect, but... from the Shell Voluta series. Maybe it'll be better than bear grease. Its about all I can find up hear and it's a special order. I maybe have some of the ancient philosophies or ideals, but this is 2008, not 200AD.
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May be these guys will help: CLC Lubricants
http://www.clclubricants.com/quenchoils.htm

CLC QUENCH SF 999 product seem OK for the job. Anyone know this firm??
 
I think a blend of ancient wisdom and modern science will be my ticket. There is always a compromise. No sense fighting the known when there is so much left unknown. You all have my respect as well.
 
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