Question for military or ex military personnel (soldiers)

[Seriousbladeno1]

Royce,

His scenario is fantastical for multiple reasons. For one thing, it's obviously a perfect situation that he has dreamed up wherein:

- The attack by "insurgent" was slow enough that he saw it coming...
- Yet quick enough that he was able to grab for something on his belt
- The something (in his fantastical scenario, a fixed blade) being deployed quickly enough for him to be able to use it effectively and
- The fixed blade being a better weapon than a sidearm (which is something that is MUCH more commonly carried by a combat unit soldier) would be.

So, you tell me. You've had multiple combat veterans in this thread talking about the modern battlefield, and how knives have been surpassed by technology and today's weaponry/training, and how they carried multi-tools instead. So, all this time, were these guys just walking around, ready to get taken out by an insurgent that jumped outta nowhere? I see from your posts here that you, being a big knife guy, wanted to be ready for a knife-fight, and that's great. But did it ever happen? 17 years? Ever have to knife any insurgents? I realize that question is incredibly poor taste to ask a veteran, but it's underscoring my point. I apologize if you find it offensive. It's always great to be "ready", but when what you're ready for is an absolute statistical anomaly, then for most people, the real world takes over, and they leave the sharpened crowbar at home, and bring a multi-tool stashed on their person.

Interestingly, my father fought in Vietnam. He ended up serving for nearly 30 years, and he got out after we were well on our way in the Desert Storm fiasco. He never once had to stab anyone, and he tells me he carried his issued bayonet in his ruck and that it never served him as a weapon. Didn't really serve any of his guys as one either. Being in the Defense industry, I have many friends who are both ex-military as well as currently serving. Out of everyone I know, only one of them says he carried a fixed blade, through multiple Sandbox locations and not once did he ever need his fixed blade as a weapon, though he and his unit were actually clearing buildings. Didn't end up ever needing to use his hawk as a weapon either, but that's for another thread. My friend didn't even know anyone who had ever actually used a bladed weapon on someone jumping out them from an allegedly cleared space. Now, he knew plenty of guys who used their pistols to respond to those threats. In addition, in this very thread, you've got plenty of active duty folks who point blank state that they didn't carry a fixed blade. I guess we should be glad that no insurgents jumped out of nowhere to fight them hand to hand, eh? :thumbup:

Don't misunderstand me. If this guy wants to carry a fixed blade, and a back up fixed blade, by all means. What I call into question is how he keeps talking about himself being in these fantasy "fighting/stabbing insurgent" situations...which would be odd for a civilian (he served, he states). So, we have a civilian, and not an active duty combat unit soldier talking about how he'd use a knife to defend himself, when as an actual soldier, he would have been issued better weapons (and trained in their use, NOT knife fighting) in which to do so. Soldiers who actually saw combat are telling him that in today's world, that's just not really something that is a major threat, and in the end, why wouldn't you use a pistol? Instead, we get to hear him talk about "first it must be found (in highly stressful rush during deadly attack,which takes place usually within fragments of seconds) , opening folder after and only now (too late) to engage it into counter weapon,,,,with not even sufficient length of blade to reach vital parts of insurgent,along chances of breaking (snapping) folder in half". All this from a guy who was never in a combat unit? I believe that the military has a term for folks who were noncombat personnel who talk a lot about how they'd do this or that in combat, but darned if I can remember what that term is.

Quiet

We have only two options I guess....to quit arguing between those who see fixed blades as reasonable part of equipment and those, who don't,or let the thread die.

Does that matter so much - fixed blade or folder in military use ? Everyone who responded here, done that to the best of his knowledge and experience and therefore there are differences - naturally. After all, that piece of steel is only a tool,,,,, same like number of other tools that soldiers carry, whether they like it or not.Most, if not all armies keeps issued fixed knives up to date, therefore there is at least some legitimate reason behind it, otherwise, in these times of cutbacks and budget plans, this would be ceased long time ago...

Also I'd like to appoint to possibility that armies arround the globe operate sometimes on different basis or nature of their philosophy,or training platform can vary... That could be the reason, why in most discussions they will probably agree together regardless of origins, however they most likely don't stick together with every details or points of view and there will always be something that makes them different. For example,in post Soviet and post communist countries (which is my case) ,demands on soldiers here was to accomplish given tasks and criteria with little or no technology whatsoever.We were expected to do nearly everything with SHOVEL only,,,with use of absolute minimum technology.Small, sharpened shovel was for us not only weapon but substitute for nearly every possible tool you can find.We had used that goddamn thing more than firearms and everything else. Why and what was the philosophy behind it? Simple - "soldier could not be dependent on technology" and "technology will always fail at some point - if you depend on it, you will die with it" "we need soldiers alive" We were being shouted at,by our captain often. (only small,seemingly irrelevant detail but it reveal sort of philosophy) at post communist and eastern block. That could be reason, why many guys from these parts of world could be protective of their gear such as knives and shovels and such...(Maybe I am not too correct, only thought) but western armies could probably more depend on technology or being fond of it,using it more frequently, who knows.

Bottom line and speaking for myself only,- I do not know and have no clue whatsoever how it is to be deployed in live combat warfare and therefore I am not the one, who can tell anything about it....that includes use of knives.I can only think,and guess - what and how can be used most effective way, nothing less nothing more.

One thing is clear to me right away from very start - even within modern warfare exist lot of use for knives (variety tasks overall) ,,, what is highly unlike these days, that soldier will find himself in close proximity of enemy in such a distance that close quarter battle between them would be possible.... That is really extremely unlikely to happend, it does happen but very rarely. This is nothing new, and obvious with the technology and weaponry used these days....i only preferred to have fixed blade (if ever deployed) - what is also highly unlikely, unless serious troubles start in here in Europe within my country's suverenity or freedom. That's all I wish to say.Thank you to all of you guys for sharing your stories and also to veterans here that really knows a lot and were willing to chip in with few valuable words...

 

[Danke42]

The Warsaw pact countries spent so much time practicing with shovels because armies are often still trying to win the last war they fought; not one in the future.

 

[Airborne 1]

OP one last thing...Read Col. David Hackworth's book,About Face, and you will see where alot of us are coming from. There is a Big difference between Professional soldiers and folks that were "there". A Pro learns his trade the rest do their part and get the "F" out.
Stop the debate and Read what the Pro's have to say...if you need a list, speak up.



2 Panther

 

[brandon0117]

I personally carry 2 folders and a fixed. My primary folder is a griptilian. Back up for that is endura 4. My fixed blade of choice is a seal pup with the upgraded kydex sheath. It has never failed me and is perfect for some of the conditions I end up in. For field sharpening I do carry a whetstone, but I also carry a ceramic bar for quick use. Hope it's some kind of help


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Mobster1983]

One thing that many people have mentioned is a backup pistol being sufficient. I don't know what units you all were in, but in both my deployments pistols were a rare commodity. As a Platoon Leader, I had one, my PSG had one, and my medic had one. I had to fight to get two more for my Section Leaders, but that was it. (Ironically the staff officers who never left the FOB always had pistols.) So the large majority of front-line Soldiers do not have any backup weapon and only carry an M-4.

Second deployment I spent some time in the TOC, then was on a Mobile Training Team. We drove around to Iraqi Army bases and conducted training with the IA. As instructors, we had to leave our M-4s in the vehicles, as well as our armor (not practical to hold on to while teaching and also not a great show of trust). We were not issued pistols, and although we had a security team, had no way to defend ourselves if something happened. I always took my fixed blade and kept it on my hip in those situations. Especially because just a couple months before our unit had 2 Soldiers killed and 9 others wounded when an Iraqi Soldier opened fire on them with no warning.

 

[Mobster1983]

First of all, if you scrabble for a fixed knife or folder in combat - any blade really - you have done something wrong. You dont let them in that close.

If need be a handgun can be yanked out pretty fast, when your life is on the line - at least as fast as a fixed knife.

Further more, you obviously have no inkling of how effective for example the Emerson Wave function is, if you believe a folder cant be deployed just as fast as a fixed blade.

In theory should you need a folding knife in combat (perish the thought), there are plenty of knives, which are just as fast as a fixed knife to deploy.

But knife fighting is simply not something modern armies contemplate nor teach to any large degree to the standard infantryman - THAT should tell you something.

Agree with your first and last point. And although a folder can be deployed just as fast as a fixed blade in civilian clothes, ever try to take something out of your pocket wearing 100 lbs or armor and gear? It's a pain in the ass, and not fast at all. Fixed blade strapped to the chest is much much faster. Also far more convenient, which is probably one of the reasons I used mine so much even though a folder would have worked.

 

[The Whip]

I was debating over whether I wanted to join this conversation, as these threads routinely devolve into useless arguments. But all these claims that those who carry more than a nail file into combat are living in a fantasy world are getting under my skin.

This is going to seem incredibly self-serving, but it proves a point so I'm going to put it out there. I started a thread in the Cold Steel subforum about carry in combat. If you want to see examples of soldiers carrying knives into harm's way, you can see them in that thread. Pay particular attention to Mike Sastre's post #5.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1365808-Cold-Steel-Knives-In-Combat


Need more proof? Dietmar Pohl wrote a whole book on the subject several years ago.

More proof still? Here are just a few of the photos I've dug up (there are plenty more). A fixed-blade is in evidence in every one of these pictures. None of these guys looks like a rear echelon type to me.

Seriousbladeno1, you are correct about fixed blades. They are faster to draw, more intuitive to manipulate, and safer to use than folders. If I were to enter a combat zone now, I'd strap one of these to my vest.

If I was cramped for space or in and out of vehicles a lot, I'd opt for one of these two.

You and Royce are also right about refusing to allow the undue influence of others to dictate your actions and determine (and potentially seal) your fate. I hope that there are at least some reading these forums who heed your words.

-Steve

P.S. - This is one beautiful knife!

P.P.S. - leghog, I recognize those modifications to your Ka-Bar. Did you happen to get your copy of Don Paul's book at the Ranger Joe's located outside of Ft. Benning? That's where I bought mine in August of 1989. What a great, fun, outside-of-the-box-thinking book that is! This world needs more Don Pauls!

 

[Frailer]

Well, that's that then.

If a dozen guys shared war stories at a gun show about how they killed men with their knives in hand-to-hand combat, it must be true.

I'll be sure to ask the tabbed-out former SPC5 with the green beret and halo badge about his experiences when I see him on Veterans Day.

 

[leghog]

Well, that's that then.

If a dozen guys shared war stories at a gun show about how they killed men with their knives in hand-to-hand combat, it must be true.

I'll be sure to ask the tabbed-out former SPC5 with the green beret and halo badge about his experiences when I see him on Veterans Day.

So there I was...knee deep in enemy blood with a bayonet in hand....

 

[GREENJACKET]

Good bunch of pictures.
Interesting how many have gone for a smaller fixed over the classic combat knife size though. The medics have their scissors handy. The pure variation of kit is interesting too.

One thing not covered is the issue and use of bayonets. British troops are trained on and issued bayonets, though if they take them into the field is another matter, some units do, some leave them at base. I don't have a problem with them as a training tool but less convinced for use with short style rifles.
Private Purchase: I believe there is a much more diverse assault rifle choice, even personal weapon choice, given to some countries; and/or some units. USA can allow personal weapons???
Weight: Vehicle based troops are less "weight" critical. What troops carry for mountain foot patrol, fire base foot patrols, and vehicle mounted patrols differer. Most have a different packing list depending on what they are doing.
What webbing system also dictates where to put it and what size. Its a problem as some of the pictures show (some would struggle to get to their knives due to where they have them). Something fast to hand seems sensible, but what size or style is another mater.

Private security members can do as they like.

The "all tooled up" look has a certain deterrence of its own.. "don't mess with us".

Issue of handguns to base camp and operation room staff is to give personal protection and more room in the office environment. Too much expensive equipment to be knocked by slung rifles, and they just get in the way when sitting hours at a desk looking at a screen.
The British Army recently bought some Glocks for training staff due to rogue trainees. The assault rifle has always been the individual soldiers personal weapon.

What knife is a personal choice too, though most would agree its more to do with utility and the general trend is to go smaller and with a good cutting edge. To cut seat belts, webbing, MRE's open and any manner of tasks. A multitool can fix and help maintain the ever increasing sophisticated kit. What the knife its not is a defence/offence weapon system.
Some soldiers will always carry a "combat knife" if only because it fits their "warriorness", and if the terrain dictates it they can be a handy tool. But its just a whole less important than it used to be.

Just a quick one. Who does a five or ten mile tab with a leg strapped drop pistol rig? To me its a modern phenomenon brought about by the very specific role presently been carried out. Far too vehicle and static reliant for my traditional light infantry thinking past. Not saying its wrong just that its alien to me... but then I've been out a long time. Can the modern soldier do the 20mile route marches, days on end, that General Slim advocated to get his Burma troops combat fit? I just think the modern soldier is getting far too cluttered and weighed down. Personal junk comes second if it gets in the way of combat effectiveness. Different approach to different times.

 

[ecallahan]

Maybe, but when I shipped out as a 21 year old U.S. Marine in support of Desert Shield/Desert Storm I carried a Gerber BMF on my web gear every day. Never took it off. The officers were always talking about trench warfare with the Iraqi's, so I wanted the biggest meanest knife I could find. The BMF was it. The BMF being big and heavy was of little concern. Actually many guys admired it, and wished they had one. I never got to use it as a weapon, but it sure gave me a secure feeling knowing that I had that blade by my side. I still have the BMF, and one day it will get passed down to my daughter. Looking back if I had to do it all over again I would look to something in the 7-8 inch blade range of the dagger variety.

Desert Storm here also. I actually carried a boot knife but it was clipped to the inside of my cargo pocket such that only the handle showed. I didn't know much about knives then and my neighbor who was a Marine in Vietnam carried it there and wanted me to carry it while deployed. It worked out well. It was small enough not to get in the way but large enough for most tasks like opening MRE's and such. I tried to use my Kabar once to cut com line and it dulled the heck out of it. That knife usually stayed in a bag. DS was also the first time I saw a leatherman. I thought they were a fad. But the Marine who had it used it constantly. Of course I now own many and would have carried one if I were to do it over

 

[Spectre]

I d like to get involved military or ex-military personnel from arround the world that served or still serving on active duty and ask them following questions :

1.) How many fixed blades do you usually carry on various assignments in the field and what exactly they are or (were)? brands /models

2.) Do /did you prefer to invest significant amount of money for desired premium knife of your own choice,even investing a lot of money or - rather relied on affordable option of average knife,or army issue only?

3.) What knife surprised you very much and never let you down and what knife failed and let you down when needed?

4.) What "all around" fixed blade would you recommend to other soldiers based on your own experience? (here you can also specify weather and climate conditions if any in particular)

5.) How do you maintain your edge /knife in field, if you do? (sharpening /oiling etc)

Thanks for all replies.(doesn't need to go necessary from point 1 to point 5) please post photos of your military knife companions - if possible!

1. I have a custom blade modified by Sam Owens that I would wear if back in a combat assignment. I would also wear either a Shirley-Owens Daily Kiri or a Spyderco ARK.
The knife in question is immediately to the left of the sand-colored handled knife.

It's on my body armor in this 2011 picture:
https://c6.staticflickr.com/8/7341/12662542885_6faff4156e_z.jpg

DK and ARK.

2. The Army doesn't "issue" knives, though they are sometimes purchased by units with unit funds, or donated for units by generous donors like Charlie Daniels. I have a close relationship with several knife makers. I would carry one custom knife and two factory knives.

3. Seriously? How many "failures" do you expect to hear about? I was surprised at how much I loved the Spyderco Manix 2 XL.

4. I designed the Spyderco ARK with Sam Owens to cover the dangerous gap when most deployed service members go to the showers without any weapons whatsoever.

I believe all deployed service members should have an ARK.

5. Rinsed my folders with very hot water at least a couple of times a week, followed by wiping with CLP and sharpening if necessary. Fixed blades are wiped with CLP and sharpened as necessary.

I carried a larger custom knife on my first deployment, usually accompanied with a Spyderco folder.

After a firefight in early 2007. I'd used/abused my knife to pry frozen 120mm mortar rounds out of their carriers.

On my second deployment, when working inside bases (not in body armor), I finally settled on a Spyderco Manix 2 XL that I worked very hard. Here it is before being sent to me:

 

[jackknife]

So there I was...knee deep in enemy blood with a bayonet in hand....

A bayonet?

Ohhh, I'd have loved to have a bayonet that time all those black pj's were over the wire, and all I had was an entrenching tool...

 

[Spectre]

Actually, the E tool makes a far better weapon than a dismounted bayonet.

 

[leghog]

Actually, the E tool makes a far better weapon than a dismounted bayonet.

Mayhaps in the trenches of the Western Front in WW1.

 

[Spectre]

Mayhaps in the trenches of the Western Front in WW1.

So, to be sure I understand your point, you think a shorter weapon with much less leverage is somehow more effective? What does WWI have to do with your fallacious point?

 

[Charlie Fox]

The most I ever carried when I was in was either a SAK Pioneer or a Demo Knife. Got me through everything I needed.

 

[GREENJACKET]

Think an AK beats them both. What makes child soldiers dangerous (if not disposable).
The stats speak for themselves. Improvised weapons, like knives and now entrenching tools, account for a fraction, and that a small fraction, of 1%. Rwanda might be the exception.

Once I knew the number of rounds of small arms fire, historically, it took to get a hit. Pretty big numbers, thousands and thousands....

The rest is individual choice.

Interesting those pictures above... not one entrenching tool. Theatre specific and how things change.

 

[Cobalt]

[video=youtube;w9KBOhPXhds]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9KBOhPXhds[/video]

 

[Spectre]

Interesting those pictures above... not one entrenching tool. Theatre specific and how things change.

While an e tool is a superior improvised weapon, there is just little other reason to carry one in Afghanistan. For that matter, there has been little reason to carry a large knife since the first modern war in 1861. The museum at Stone Mountain has several examples of large knives, with the explanation that these big fighters were common gifts to Confederate soldiers...and littered the paths they marched, as they were discarded because of their weight.

Modern US combat troops carry even more weight than those poor Johnny Rebs, and carry high capacity reliable repeating firearms, not single shots.

John