Question for military or ex military personnel (soldiers)

[BladeScout]

In relation to last blue section i must highlight importance of carrying fixed blade over folder.This is directly my answer why fixed, referring to unforseen,or sudden close quarter bodily attack of insurgency on soldier.This sort of situation simply doesn't allow enough time to - looking for small tool like folder in the pockets or even ruck,pockets are often deep or folder is in its leather /nylon case, first it must be found (in highly stressful rush during deadly attack,which takes place usually within fragments of seconds) , opening folder after and only now (too late) to engage it into counter weapon,,,,with not even sufficient length of blade to reach vital parts of insurgent,along chances of breaking (snapping) folder in half, as all of their constructions have weakness point within pivots,where each folder is prone to break,this to me is vivid scenario, why would I always carry fixed blade - always know exactly it's by my right hand,(never have to look for it,never have to loose a vital second that decide between my life or death by opening it, it can be deployed extremly fast,rapidly ON TIME, and have EFFECTIVE REACH to all vital parts, once imbedded in insurgent's body, not to worry about locking mechanism and own fingers....Fixed blade is the fastest,more effective knife for self-defence or even offensive action

You are WRONG.

Again, its af if you dont absorb, what people tell you (again, not necessarily me).

First of all, if you scrabble for a fixed knife or folder in combat - any blade really - you have done something wrong. You dont let them in that close.

According to your wording, you have a romantic view of what combat is. I assume from not actually having been in combat.

Instances where a knife has been used in modern times in combat are documented, but they are few and far between.

My favorite is and always will be, the tale of this brave gentleman:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ts-on-trainGang-Of-30/articleshow/6488820.cms

How ever, that has NOTHING to do with the warfare, the Coalition has been involved in.

Your firearm - your rifle/carbine or if need be your pistol, is what you need to use when close enough to do so. If further away, call your buddy in the fantastic Warthog (every infantry's best friend) .......or somebody with a 500 pound bomb.

If need be a handgun can be yanked out pretty fast, when your life is on the line - at least as fast as a fixed knife.

Further more, you obviously have no inkling of how effective for example the Emerson Wave function is, if you believe a folder cant be deployed just as fast as a fixed blade.

In theory should you need a folding knife in combat (perish the thought), there are plenty of knives, which are just as fast as a fixed knife to deploy.

But knife fighting is simply not something modern armies contemplate nor teach to any large degree to the standard infantryman - THAT should tell you something.

 

[BladeScout]

Bladescout,

We all know a well made fixed blade is stronger than nearly all folders. A well made folder can be stronger than a poorly made fixed. This thread was directed at the combat fixed blade.

What this thread shows is most modern military find a medium folder or/and multitool more than adequate for their needs and fixed blades are rare, or at least rarely put to any real use.
Fixed blades are a liability in crowd control, added weight and where do you put them on an already crowded webbing order? There is enough to carry anyway, and a fixed blade can't do much more than what a good folder can do. Military personnel in high threat zones have their handguns and assault rifles as personal protection; knives don't come into the equation.
They are not redundant but presently not very popular.

Most loony attacks are so sudden there isn't much defence to start. Few people I know are in "watch threat zone" every minute. No one can live like that. At best with training it can be tuned and turned on for a period of time. Loony attacks are either sustained assault or ambush and retire. The former the victim can but defend as best they can, the later hope help arrives. The victims are at a huge disadvantage, and even the best reaction is slow.
Police officers, and soldiers in regular combat are more tuned as they have been regularly exposed to such high stress situations. Off duty they are only a bit faster. Experience will give them the advantage.


We can all think up good uses for a good fixed blade. Most here are knife enthusiasts. But to try and justify them to a professional military that hasn't got a use for them isn't helpful. If the military needed them they would carry them. Some individuals do carry them, a few at the bottom of a bergen that would take ten minutes to dig out, others closer at hand. Those that do, have their own reasons, or its theatre specific. But the vast majority don't.

There has been some interesting and varied input to this thread. Different situations and different times produced different result. The facts are that the classic combat utility fixed blade is far less common that enthusiasts and the manufacturers hype would want us to believe. Just the way it is.

If I was doing my time now I'd probably go and buy a Spyderco Military folder, and take my Leatherman and SAK Huntsman.

Well stated and I agree.

 

[smith357]

I d like to get involved military or ex-military personnel from arround the world that served or still serving on active duty and ask them following questions :

1.) How many fixed blades do you usually carry on various assignments in the field and what exactly they are or (were)? brands /models

I carried two fixed blades in the late 70s and early 80s, a Ka-Bar USMC on the belt and a Gerber MKII upside down on the H harness.

2.) Do /did you prefer to invest significant amount of money for desired premium knife of your own choice,even investing a lot of money or - rather relied on affordable option of average knife,or army issue only?

As a USMC grunt I did not have a lot of money, I got my knives at the PX as did most enlisted personel.

3.) What knife surprised you very much and never let you down and what knife failed and let you down when needed?

They all suffered damage from hard use and misuse, that is why I went with inexpensive easily replaceable tools, I went through 3-4 Ka-Bars and two MKIIs

4.) What "all around" fixed blade would you recommend to other soldiers based on your own experience? (here you can also specify weather and climate conditions if any in particular)

If I were heading off into the fray today I would get another USMC Ka-bar, simple, proven, easily replaceable.

5.) How do you maintain your edge /knife in field, if you do? (sharpening /oiling etc)

I carried a small India stone and spit, today I would use a coarse diamond plate and spit.

 

[jwill05]

I am surprised that non of the Randall's popped up yet,but these were probably very rare and also too pricey even for veterans from Vietnam or Korean wars - where these supposed to be deployed in numbers.So far it's predominantly number of Camillus, Kabars and Gerbers fixed blades,plus lot of folders and multitools. I also wonder if somebody come forward here with Khukuri as I read elsewhere on BF, these were too options for certain individuals in Iraq or middle east lately, in contrary to what most military wouldn't opt for (big and heavy)

Funny you should mention that my father actually gave me his Randall when I deployed to Iraq granted I didn't use it.

 

[GREENJACKET]

Boar hunting knives: Oh I do like that Lon Humphrey, nice and long. I find one edge hell sharp enough, one sharp edge is all I want to concentrate on where it is. I generally go in under the armpit once the pig is upended. Surprising little effort is required. Always makes an interesting moment.

My Cold Steel Master San Mai Tanto is an early one with brass fixings. For BG's they were the fashion for a good while. Tough tool, great urban sharp crow bar, but not much cope in the woods.

Sharpening. I used to carry an Arkansas stone, later a DMP Diafold. Frankly, wet and dry automobile sandpaper can get a blunt thing sharp. I have a little set of ceramic crock sticks too. It was one way to pass the time and I would sort out everyone else's blunts things in my unit. (Now I have a man cave with plenty of sharpening gismos).

Knife attack then shock is pretty bad. The shock incapacitates victims fast. Violence is never romantic, I try to stay away from it as much as I can. Certainly don't go looking for it now. When I was younger I was looking for adventure, which is a different thing.

 

[jackknife]

"NAJAF, Iraq — One of his friends was dead, 12 others lay wounded and the four soldiers still left standing were surrounded and out of ammunition. So Salvadoran Cpl. Samuel Toloza said a prayer, whipped out his knife and charged the Iraqi gunmen.

In one of the only known instances of hand-to-hand combat in the Iraq conflict, Cpl. Toloza stabbed several attackers swarming around a comrade. The stunned assailants backed away momentarily, just as a relief column came to the unit’s rescue."

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2004/may/3/20040503-115511-7092r/

It wasn't a fixed blade...but I'll bet he was glad he didn't just have one of those folding can openers people like posting photos of.

http://www.badassoftheweek.com/toloza.html

Thank you stabman for posting this. It's exactly what most of us here are talking about. Any decent folder kept sharp will do just fine for whatever. You don't need the Hollywood Rambo knife on any active duty station. Here's a guy who used a 3 inch bladed folder to save his friends. Back it up with a SAK or Leatherman and you're good to go.Plus, when you take off your wed gear, the knife is still in your pocket and on you no matter what. Nothing beats the ever present readiness of a folder that can be carried anywhere.

 

[Cryptyc]

I feel like I should throw in here, since there seems to be a little bashing on those who say have a fixed-blade. Carry whatever the hell you want. If you are in a theater where you cannot have your rifle or sidearm on you when not actively on patrol, but still feel you need protection then maybe a fixed blade would be good to have for piece of mind to carry in those instances. Maybe you're in an area where culturally knives are respected so you'd want one to show your 'gusto'. I don't know. All I'm saying is if someone wants to carry a fixed blade then freaking do it! If you don't mind lugging it around and it doesn't make you uncomfortable then do it. I'm a National Guard Tanker and you can believe me when I say that I've seen a bunch of fixed blades attached to rucks...bussel racks make life easier though, we don't ruck often hahahaha.

 

[kvaughn]

That's true if they were just flying up..

What??

 

[GermanyChris]

What??

Fly at a given elevation isn't the same everywhere..


BAY: And you decided to use CH-47s for the operation?

WIERCINSKI: We used Chinooks because of the altitude. The lowest HLZ was 8500 feet, 8500 feet and up. We could also put in a lot of troops quickly with them. I landed in UH 60 but at 9000 feet. Our load for a UH-60 at that altitude was 5 or 6 people. A CH-47 was the helicopter of choice because you couldn�t overstack it. We�d just put in brand new 714 engines. Very powerful. Incredibly powerful. Great altitude performance. We could put in a lot quickly. We had up to 35 troops with full combat loading. You could have put more in it would but that would have been a dangerous situation, I mean, adding risk to the operation. We needed a to get on the HLZ fast and with a lot of troops. We were balancing safety risk assessment with combat capability. I want to make this clear about the distances. I don�t think a lot of people get that, the distances involved in Afghanistan. That�s a big factor. Our first lift was from Kandahar to FOB at Bagram. That�s like moving from Richmond, Virginia to New York City. Our air assault into Shahi Khot from Bagram was like moving from NYC to Philadelphia, and then going straight into combat. Bagram�s around 5,000 feet, I think, so we had to account for the increase in altitude as well as the distance. There are also some mountain ridges, 10K to 11K in altitude, and then getting into landing zones at 8.5K feet. We made 14 combat air assaults into Shahi Khot valley over the next two days, that�s air assaulting forces and resupplies. Then of course, we had extraction for casualties, personnel.

For example
https://www.strategypage.com/on_point/20020627.aspx

 

[James Y]

Several years ago, I read an account of a U.S. soldier in Iraq who was involved in close combat with a single enemy fighter. For whatever reason (I can't recall), he was not able to use his gun, but was able to get out his folder, which I believe he said was a CRKT Desert Cruiser(?). He killed the enemy fighter. He also said that he did have a fixed blade combat knife on him, but for whatever reason he used the folder instead.

In The Swiss Army Knife Owner's Manual, there is an account of an American soldier in Somalia who ended up in a struggle with an enemy, and the only 'weapon' he was able to access was the metal file blade on his Victorinox Swisschamp (or Champion) SAK. As I recall, he didn't specifically choose the file blade, it was simply what he accessed in the heat of the situation. I won't go into graphic detail, but needless to say, it worked and he survived. Reportedly, the tip of the metal file had broken off.

I'm not saying that such knives are necessarily the ideal choice for these situations, but I am pointing out that neither had used a big fixed blade to survive, and what they used in their respective situations worked.

Jim

 

[GREENJACKET]

I always thought one of these would be handy:
http://www.thesafetysupplycompany.c...--wrecking-bar-crowbar---600mm---si-pc62.html

Think its time there was a martial art based around it, for there is for the walking stick.

Out from on this.. I've actually got some work to do.
ATB

 

[Seriousbladeno1]

Are you speaking from experience with extremely close quarters entanglement with an "insurgent", or is this just how you expect it would go? Because, using your own logic, a sidearm would be just as quick to deploy as a fixed blade, so....why would you use a knife? I'm trying to follow your train of thought and I'm in the weeds here.

It was reasoning why I prefer fixed over folder, because it's faster to react (taken firearms out of situation) of course if one have firearms and ammo available,he is not going to use knife for the love of God

 

[rustyrazor]

You are WRONG.

Again, its af if you dont absorb, what people tell you (again, not necessarily me).

First of all, if you scrabble for a fixed knife or folder in combat - any blade really - you have done something wrong. You dont let them in that close.

According to your wording, you have a romantic view of what combat is. I assume from not actually having been in combat.

Instances where a knife has been used in modern times in combat are documented, but they are few and far between.

My favorite is and always will be, the tale of this brave gentleman:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ts-on-trainGang-Of-30/articleshow/6488820.cms

How ever, that has NOTHING to do with the warfare, the Coalition has been involved in.

Your firearm - your rifle/carbine or if need be your pistol, is what you need to use when close enough to do so. If further away, call your buddy in the fantastic Warthog (every infantry's best friend) .......or somebody with a 500 pound bomb.

If need be a handgun can be yanked out pretty fast, when your life is on the line - at least as fast as a fixed knife.

Further more, you obviously have no inkling of how effective for example the Emerson Wave function is, if you believe a folder cant be deployed just as fast as a fixed blade.

In theory should you need a folding knife in combat (perish the thought), there are plenty of knives, which are just as fast as a fixed knife to deploy.

But knife fighting is simply not something modern armies contemplate nor teach to any large degree to the standard infantryman - THAT should tell you something.

"Wrong" is a pretty strong term for someone's opinion that differs from yours wouldn't you say? As has been told to me thousands of times "you can't argue tactics" I disagree somewhat, but how can you say someone is outright wrong just because they have an opinion that differs from yours as if your opinion is the only one that is "right" in this case?

point by point:

if you scramble for a fixed knife or folder in combat you haven't necessarily done anything wrong... things happen and people can come out of nowhere in crowds and CQB situations and just that quick you find yourself in a fight situation. it happens a fair bit. not saying you need to resort to deadly force but if you need to, then you need to and that's how the cookie crumbles sometimes as the opposition always has a say in what's going on.

romantic view? ...I'd say you're right on that one, but everybody has a romantic view of the military so who's to say? it's not like anyone's saying we should all be proficient knife fighters I don't think unless I'm reading this whole thread wrong.

few and far between: yes, but who plans to not have a plan "just in case"???

the war the coalition has been involved in: irrelevant... any engagement has the possibility of coming in close contact with the enemy if things go pear shaped, and if you think things always go as planned; they don't.

the A-10 a rifle or pistol are great and yes, the go to but if the situation dictates and you can't use those, then what? not every soldier can win a hand to hand fight with every opponent period. Or if you're in a crowded area full of your buddies and civilians are you going to start shooting wildly through a person into the crowd or one of your friends just because you have someone on top of you? that's not what I was taught.

emerson wave or ANY folder is not ALWAYS going to be as fast when you're in a struggle... motor function and small manipulation is hard to rely on and what happens if you don't get the wave out the way you wanted and you have an unopened knife in your hand while he's got time to get ahold of your wrist before you can do anything?

I agree that knife fighting is not something modern armies contemplate or learn much of, but that doesn't mean it's useless... if the military has taught me anything it's that the military doesn't have all of the answers. I'm not saying you're wrong... I am just giving the devil's advocate opinion of your post. I agree with you for the most part and I don't carry my fixed blade as a weapon primarily but it gets a lot of use in other ways that most folders and multitools just couldn't and that's why I still carry one. Just in case.

just my 2c

 

[Quiet]

It was reasoning why I prefer fixed over folder, because it's faster to react (taken firearms out of situation) of course if one have firearms and ammo available,he is not going to use knife for the love of God

Have you ever timed yourself? You say it's "faster to react". How much faster? How is a fixed blade "faster to react" than a sidearm? Why would a soldier take a firearm out of the situation?

You seem to have this fantasy scenario about stabbing people, when actual warfighters are in this thread telling you that that's not a situation that tends to crop up. And so at the end of the day, why wouldn't you respond with a sidearm instead of a knife?

 

[Seriousbladeno1]

Have you ever timed yourself? You say it's "faster to react". How much faster? How is a fixed blade "faster to react" than a sidearm? Why would a soldier take a firearm out of the situation?

You seem to have this fantasy scenario about stabbing people, when actual warfighters are in this thread telling you that that's not a situation that tends to crop up. And so at the end of the day, why wouldn't you respond with a sidearm instead of a knife?

I WAS NOT COMPARING SPEED OF DRAWING FIREARM TO FIXED BLADE, BUT FIXED BLADE (READY TO USE IMMEDIATELY) VS FOLDER, which is smaller and more complicated to made it ready than fixed blade, dagger for example.When someone jumps on your neck in close quarters, where can be dark, looking in pockets where is my multitool or folder and then only start releasing it's small 3 inch blade, which doesn't even have capability to reach vital organs....If someone claim this is better way to deal with situation instead of rapid draw of fixed knife, than I doubt that person ever could be trusted with his way of thinking. I know my English is second language to me, but i think, I wrote it quite clearly to understand even for non native English speaker.

I am highly dubious of whom of us have fantasy scenarios in mind,when you claim practicaly that sidearm or any kind of firearm will be always available to soldier in every situation and ammo will be endless, never running out seem to me like a fantasy...

 

[Quiet]

I WAS NOT COMPARING SPEED OF DRAWING FIREARM TO FIXED BLADE, BUT FIXED BLADE (READY TO USE IMMEDIATELY) VS FOLDER, which is smaller and more complicated to made it ready than fixed blade, dagger for example.When someone jumps on your neck in close quarters, where can be dark, looking in pockets where is my multitool or folder and then only start releasing it's small 3 inch blade, which doesn't even have capability to reach vital organs....If someone claim this is better way to deal with situation instead of rapid draw of fixed knife, than I doubt that person ever could be trusted with his way of thinking. I know my English is second language to me, but i think, I wrote it quite clearly to understand even for non native English speaker.

I am highly dubious of whom of us have fantasy scenarios in mind,when you claim practicaly that sidearm or any kind of firearm will be always available to soldier in every situation and ammo will be endless, never running out seem to me like a fantasy...

So, again, what is your response to the fact that many military members in here are telling you that what you are proposing is unrealistic? No one has said ammo is endless. But I can tell you that I'd rather have an M9 with a ten round magazine over a fixed blade if someone decided to "jump on my neck".

Your entire scenario hypothesis just comes off as fantastical imaginings from the mind of someone who has never been, and never will be in that situation. Main combat unit Soldiers aren't fighting people off with fixed blades in the real world, mang. Sorry.

 

[GermanyChris]

So let's just assume I'm an army of one and crazy did jumps on me from behind.

Why do we assume my folder will be in my pocket vs on my LBV/body armor

Why do we assume that we're going to be able to employ the knife on the dude anyway because he's riding on my assault pack which makes him a minimum of 14 inches off my back at an angle.

Unless you are just wearing a plate holder you aren't going to be able to reach over your shoulder because of the body armor not to mention your pack and the dude.

Since the dude is at an angle and choking you while riding on you his organs are at about your shoulder blades and anything sliceable is to far away to reach even if you hallen to have changed into a reverse grip.

Since were in never never land and I'm an army of one I'd just fall backwards and let him take the brunt of my 300+ fully loaded as we hit the ground.

 

[GREENJACKET]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AU-paVv6zTk

 

[Frailer]

Seriousbladeno1,

Can a fixed blade be brought into action more quickly than something like a Swiss Army Knife?

Absolutely. But that's not really the issue.

Is it *possible* that a soldier could get involved in a situation where a knife that can be put into action quickly could mean the difference between life and death? Sure. But it's so unlikely that it can be safely ignored. I'd bet the number of soldiers in all the armies of all the world in all the battles in the past 50 years who've died while fumbling with a folding knife they intend to stab or cut their enemy with would be somewhere in the neighborhood of zero.

I'll bet our mental images of hand-to-hand combat are very different. I picture myself with a ton of gear on and a rifle in my hands. If somebody puts their hands on me, and I'm out of ammo, I'm much more likely to club the guy with my rifle (or pistol, or chair, or a rock, or whatever else is in my hands or immediately at-hand) than I am to start fumbling around to find a knife among the empty magazines (we don't generally discard magazines when they're empty), straps, cables, and cord that festoon my gear. If my hands are empty when he attacks and nothing is readily available, my short-term goal will probably be to fill both my hands with his throat. I can choke him out faster than he'll bleed out.

With a few, very specific exceptions, the only *rational* reason to carry a knife into combat is as a tool. A folding knife will cut anything a fixed blade will, and using your fixed blade knife as a prybar (or some similar task fixed blades do better than folders) isn't wise when you're in conditions where it can't be easily replaced.

Some military guys do indeed carry fixed blades, but this is almost always because they *like* them--not because they *need* them.

 

[Railsplitter]

I d like to get involved military or ex-military personnel from arround the world that served or still serving on active duty and ask them following questions :

1.) How many fixed blades do you usually carry on various assignments in the field and what exactly they are or (were)? brands /models

I carried a Gerber MKII for a short time just because I thought it was a neat knife. Also carried a Buck 703 that I used almost exclusively. Don't remember ever using the Gerber but I enjoyed having both knives with me. After I retired the Gerber I carried a Buck 112 but I still used the 703 mostly.

2.) Do /did you prefer to invest significant amount of money for desired premium knife of your own choice,even investing a lot of money or - rather relied on affordable option of average knife,or army issue only?

Affordable options. I don't remember the Army ever issuing me a knife.

3.) What knife surprised you very much and never let you down and what knife failed and let you down when needed?

None failed me and none really surprised me either.

4.) What "all around" fixed blade would you recommend to other soldiers based on your own experience? (here you can also specify weather and climate conditions if any in particular)

No recommendation.

5.) How do you maintain your edge /knife in field, if you do? (sharpening /oiling etc)

Wasn't good at sharpening back then. Had another troop do it for me.

Thanks for all replies.(doesn't need to go necessary from point 1 to point 5) please post photos of your military knife companions - if possible!

U.S. Army. 1st Corp Support Command (1st COSCOM) 126th Transportation Company. Fort Bragg, NC 1979-1982

A Buck 703 like this one is the knife I used the most. Not the same knife I owned back then but it's the same model from the same era.