Randall 14 Vs Busse Sarsquatch

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We, I have over 30 busses and I guess that sorta makes me bias. But reading this thread, I got to thinking about Randalls. So I do what drives me and got one of them like I get one of anything I have never had. So I got a Model 18 made in the 80s, it's a pretty nice knife and was a pretty penny. I think it's a great knife and it reminds me of a Chris Reeves fixed blades that can be found for less money. I'm guessing it's a pretty good knife.
And that's about all your going to get from me is a guess. I am not going to go and chop a tree down to test them, that's what chainsaws are for. Some busses go for a lot of money also like the chubby satins that were just at the blade show. I think they are hot and would want one, but they are indeed pretty pricey. So lets stop bickering about this and let it go. To each their own.
I'm just saying, to be honest, the Randall is pretty sweet but I'm probably not going to get any more and just stick to my stupid insane out of control addiction to Busse. There is so much more to collect I guess because of the different varity, and they keep coming out with new ones and discontinue certain models, which makes them very collectible.
Dan
O, and where is that post of the review of the FBM?
 
I believe there is something very important missing about this test. If we want to compare 440C and INFI we have to use blades with the same geometry.

We need to take measurements on the Sarsquatch and the Randall and draw sections with quotes. If both blades have the same angle and the same geometry than the comparison has a meaning and the Randall is the clear winner.

But if the blades have different geometry this test has absolutely no value has a comparison test.

As a friend of Marsus, I can tell you what stated from him is true and the pictures are true as well. The Sarsquatch was tested as Marsus says and the damages are real and due to the test performed.

The Sarsquatch reported heavy damages mostly due to the thin edge. Is the Randall better than the Sarsquatch ? We cannot say it until we compare blade geometry.
What we can say is that INFI chipped but also this knife wasn't designed for heavy chopping. I would criticize design more than INFI.

The Sarsquatch looks like a camp knife and has the size of a camp knife. But it's as delicate as a kitcken knife. A camp knife shouldn't be so delicate unless you plan to bring with you a not so small knife just to cut paper sheets. You can use a folder for that or smalled blade saving on weight !
Or, if you need a kitcken knife to slice you better use something that doesn't rust.

So, as an engineer, I would mostly criticize the Sarsquatch design. In my opinion a knife of this size with such a thin and delicate edge has no meaning to exist. But of course everyone has his own opinion and is free of appreciate and buy what he prefers.

P.S. - I'm a Busse fan and Busse fixed blades are my favourite knives. Just not this one.
 
I couldn't agree more. I'm a Randall fan, but it's not a fair test of the steels when you're comparing a 25-degree edge (Randall) to a 12-degree edge (Busse) in a chopping test. It may be a fair test of the knives themselves as a whole, though - I know which of the two I'd want to have when the SHTF.
 
This thread is touching nerves left and right, even Jerry had to chime in. For my money, that delicious Randall isn't going to witness any impact with concrete. There are better tools, such as a cheap five pound mallet for crushing objects that need to be reduced.

Both blades mentioned here are similar tools with respect to performance, both have equal balance and heft in the hand. I have a Grohmann #3 which has been with me for years. It has (to my mind) the best feel of any hunting/deer knife I've every carried in the field, yet I would never use the knife as a prying tool or a concrete smasher.

The amusing thing is, in our mythical SHTF scenario, we'll probably be caught with the lowly SAK. Let's face it, we are never going to come up with the perfect knife, one that can do all things. Lets regard the cows for a moment and realize that the greatest minds have never figured out how to convert grass into milk.
 
BlackDiamond said:
I believe there is something very important missing about this test. If we want to compare 440C and INFI we have to use blades with the same geometry.

We need to take measurements on the Sarsquatch and the Randall and draw sections with quotes. If both blades have the same angle and the same geometry than the comparison has a meaning and the Randall is the clear winner.

But if the blades have different geometry this test has absolutely no value has a comparison test.
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Yes, this is correct, and has been stated numerous times already in this thread. The Busse had a much thinner edge and stock than the Randall, hence the different results. The original post just failed to mention this important detail for reasons unknown.

The Sarsquatch looks like a camp knife and has the size of a camp knife. But it's as delicate as a kitcken knife. A camp knife shouldn't be so delicate unless you plan to bring with you a not so small knife just to cut paper sheets. You can use a folder for that or smalled blade saving on weight !
Or, if you need a kitcken knife to slice you better use something that doesn't rust.

So, as an engineer, I would mostly criticize the Sarsquatch design. In my opinion a knife of this size with such a thin and delicate edge has no meaning to exist.
Click to expand...

It is impossible for me to agree with this. The Sarsquatch is certainly not "delicate as a kitchen knife" and to claim so is just plain silly. The Sarsquatch took no damage chopping wood, if I understood Marsus' posts correctly (someone may correct me if I'm wrong). The Sarsquatch was only damaged when chopping concrete. As a camp knife, therefore, the Sarsquatch would perform perfectly well, cutting and slicing well due to the thin edge and yet taking no damage to the edge chopping wood or doing similar duties - it would perform just fine as long as you did not chop concrete or rock. Now, I don't know what others do in their camps, but I personally do not chop concrete or rocks out in the field, and the Sarsquatch would work for me. And if I needed to pry with it or dig with it, it would do that much better than a delicate kitchen knife. For those among us who prefer to chop concrete and rock, Busse makes dozens of models that have much stronger and thicker edges than this Sarsquatch with a 'competition edge'. Other companies make such knives, as well.

If a knife takes damage to the edge when impacted against materials like concrete or rock, that does not make it a bad camp knife or "delicate as a kitchen knife." In fact, most knives will take edge damage when impacting with concrete or rock.
 
Stubai said:
This thread is touching nerves left and right, even Jerry had to chime in. For my money, that delicious Randall isn't going to witness any impact with concrete. There are better tools, such as a cheap five pound mallet for crushing objects that need to be reduced.
Click to expand...

All is relative and price is too. It basically depends on your salary. Someone my find the Randall a cheap knife like there are people that use a Porshe Carrera as everyday car.

Stubai said:
Both blades mentioned here are similar tools with respect to performance, both have equal balance and heft in the hand. I have a Grohmann #3 which has been with me for years.
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With respect to performance the blades are not similar and test results show it. But we cannot say it depends on steel. Both steel are great and we need to check edge geometry first.

Stubai said:
It has (to my mind) the best feel of any hunting/deer knife I've every carried in the field, yet I would never use the knife as a prying tool or a concrete smasher.
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Hard wood or bones would bring to the same results, it would just take more time. In my opinion if you just need a slicer you better leave both those knives and go fo a kitcken knife.
 
QUOTE=Elen
---------------------------------------
You are right Elen, I have said that the Sarsquatch has had only damages with the cut of the cement,and I have also written that the knife has also cut well the wood after the cut of the cement,before the cut of the cement I have cut different woods without the blade suffered damages-I have also written that I like a lot the Sarsquatch and I also use it for the hunting,the knife I still possess it and I will never sell it after this test I have also purchased other knives of Busse and even if Jerry has made the funny person I will keep on purchasing her knives-
:thumbup:
 
I said INFI only, for me.
But when something speaks to me... I listen. Horten Blade.
Thanks, man.
 
One last time, from the Randall catalog. For those that missed it, here it is again:


"You cannot cut bone, nails, bolts or pierce metal with a cutting edge and point designed for meat despite some advertising to the contrary. We have done extensive tests and find such feats cannot be performed unless the design of the cutting edge and point is altered. Using a fine hunting knife for an axe will naturally damage its cutting edge. And pounding, prying, or throwing a knife not designed for these purposes is likely to damage it. We strongly suggest that if you'll use your knife for a special heavy-duty purpose, let us know when you order so we can shape the blade and bevel accordingly."


I think it applies to knives in general, regardless of the maker. The right tool for the task at hand. It should have ended the debate when brownshoe quoted it early on in the thread.
 
Forgot to add: Im impressed by the Randall because of it's geometry. There's plenty of explanation as to why the Sarsquatch faired as it did but no one seems notice what Marsus said. His Model 14 edge shoulder measures 0.0276 inches (0.7mm). That is a strictly cutting edge geometry. Not for chopping concrete... None of my choppers are that thin at the shoulder, none are even close. That 0.0276in edge shoulder is thinner than my GW, MS, Batac and the other bigger Busses...
 
PatriotDan said:
Forgot to add: Im impressed by the Randall because of it's geometry. There's plenty of explanation as to why the Sarsquatch faired as it did but no one seems notice what Marsus said. His Model 14 edge shoulder measures 0.0276 inches (0.7mm). That is a strictly cutting edge geometry. Not for chopping concrete... None of my choppers are that thin at the shoulder, none are even close. That 0.0276in edge shoulder is thinner than my GW, MS, Batac and the other bigger Busses...
Click to expand...

I'm impressed as well. Without reference to the Busse, that Randall #14 in forged 440B/440C did remarkably well. I never felt under-equipped when I carried a #14 for a few years during my Army career, and now I know why.
 
Marsus, many thanks for your posting of this test.

I have seen many videos and reports of extraordinary feats accomplished by blades from the Busse shop. This is the first report, however, I have read of a Randall performing so well under abuse with visible results to reinforce it.

I hope the highly opinionated responses of some of the members here does not discourage you from future posts. Both companies have well-known reputations for producing high quality cutlery and it is unfortunate that testing and/or comparison of a knive(s) always sparks such inflammatory remarks on this web forum.
 
t1mpani said:
I took it down to a local machine/tool shop and asked for a hardness test on the C scale. This had to be done on the flat portions of course, but as the 440B knives are not differentially hardened anyway it told me all I need to know. Testing five points along the blade, the hardness ranged from 50-52 HRC. Pretty much the hardness of a hammer or cheap screwdriver. So I got them to print me out the results and gave them to Jaime (the owner) to send back along with his knife, and fired off a copy to Gary Randall asking him if five to seven points below the stated hardness fell under the heading of 'knowing how to make a knife.' In the end, finally, they sent Jaimie a new one. It took like five or six months but they did it. No acknowledgment of the mistake or the apologies for the attitudes presented, but he did get a knife back.

Here's the original (and the little dots along the blade above the primary grind are the hardness testing points). Keep in mind, this was from slicing--not chopping, batoning or any impact of any kind.




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Those chunks allong the edge look like the edge was to hard and it chipped out. But the Rockwell test says it was in the low 50's. Would an edge chip like that if it was soft? I would think it would roll or dent. It does not make sence to me.
 
You got me. I was hoping for some further insight after Randall got to looking at it, but it never came. At the end of the day the knife was replaced, so I chalked it up to a win.
 
SkagSig40 said:
Those chunks allong the edge look like the edge was to hard and it chipped out. But the Rockwell test says it was in the low 50's. Would an edge chip like that if it was soft? I would think it would roll or dent. It does not make sence to me.
Click to expand...

Depending on how the heat-treat went wrong, you can get carbide(?) structures in the steel that would make it brittle but test low on the Rc scale, or vice versa. Just a low hardness reading doesn't necessarily mean it's just softer than normal, there are a multitude of things that could have gone wrong to cause such a reading. For example, if the quenchant used was too slow, the steel would not get to a fully hardened state.

Most knives/machetes/etc. that Rc in the low 50's are tempered to that hardness-they are fully hardened, then tempered back (softened) to such a low number in order to increase toughness/ease of sharpening. That causes different formations/distributions of various carbides with the stelel than improper heat-treat does.

There's a couple of sticky threads in the shoptalk section if you'd like to learn more/get more information about it than I can provide:thumbup:
 
GrinderMcgee said:
Marsus, many thanks for your posting of this test.

I have seen many videos and reports of extraordinary feats accomplished by blades from the Busse shop. This is the first report, however, I have read of a Randall performing so well under abuse with visible results to reinforce it.

I hope the highly opinionated responses of some of the members here does not discourage you from future posts. Both companies have well-known reputations for producing high quality cutlery and it is unfortunate that testing and/or comparison of a knive(s) always sparks such inflammatory remarks on this web forum.
Click to expand...

Thanks, surely I am not discouraged for future posts :thumbup:
 
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