RAT Fighting Knife

The RC-3, 4 and 6 will be coming out soon with a back edge as an option. Will have protos at the Blade show.
 
razorsdescent said:
... but in the meantime why dont you try this? http://www.knifeworks.com/browseproducts/Fallkniven-Garm-Fighter.HTML about all u could want in a tidy package.
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Because in many jurisdictions, carrying a dedicated fighting knife like that Fallkniven Garm would be considered looking for trouble, and the minor advantage over a solid utility blade is really minimal, especially if you have no special training in either. A scuffed up RC-3 would be a decent defensive option and attract less attention.
 
Esav Benyamin said:
Exactly. First develop a fighting style, then decide what knife works best with it.

Getting the knife first is like buying a Prius and then remembering you needed a vehicle to haul gravel.
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I find a box knife works great for me. Anything bigger than that is a bonus.
 
Look at the Classic Cold Steel Tanto from the 80s and early 90s. It's a beautiful production fighting knife. People can debate the separate issue of a kwaiken-tanto-whatever being a good, better, best fighting knife all they want. Those Cold Steel knives are high quality fighting knives. Not getting involved in all of the Lynn Thompson controversies and distractions that sometimes erupt on these forums. I'm trying to make a point, pardon the pun.

It has a point. It has an edge. They were needle-pointy and razor sharp right out of the box. A "Skullcrusher" pommel on other end of it.

Square One - Pointy end goes in the other guy.

Square Two - Edge goes on the other guy.

Square Three - Blunt end can fracture someone's skull or perform other, blunt trauma.


ALL of the RAT Knives going back to the Ontario versions have exposed steel tang for a pommel. It's not a pyramid, but it doesn't have to be any more than a ball peen hammer's flat would have to be a pyramid shape in order to be effective.

Not "suitable" for fighting?

Not suitable for "knife fighting," i.e., fighting with a knife, not necessarily "knife fighting" or "knifefighting" as it has come to be known. Whenever this stuff is discussed, people bring their own prejudice, ignorance, stupidity, heros and villains to the conversation without examining much of anything else.

Two more things about RAT knives and other knives for that matter. Don't get your panties in a wad about the length of a blade and what you will be able to reach and what will be denied you when it comes to targeting. Flesh compresses very, very easily and an RC-3 on a hard thrust will penetrate as deeply as an RC-6 on a lighter thrust that still sinks the RC-6 up to the hilt. Some will inevitably say, "Well, I don't want to work so hard, I want to be able to use that 'easy thrust.'" This is about survival. Think prison instead of ballet. Sure, there is room for a lot of subtle movement and skill, but when it comes right down to it, it's not "wonderful" or "beautiful" or anything like that, it's nasty. Killing someone with a handgun, and definitely a shotgun, in close quarters is also nasty.

Second thing, these knives are rather wide which creates a wider wound channel and greater possibility of hitting important structures, etc., etc., etc.

Any of these knives are suitable for defensive purposes on the street or in the field, the only question that remains is, are you suitable for defensive purposes or do you only regurgitate gun show and knife show nonsense and stuff you read on websites from people trying to be unique and make a buck for themselves in the process?
 
Don Rearic said:
Let's try to keep the conversation on an adult level and not stray into bullshit like, "never bring a knife to a gunfight" or the stupidity on the other side of the spectrum, "guns are for show, knives are for pros" because both extremes are so utterly stupid it makes me want to geef.

With all due respect, anyone that handles an RC-3, 4 or 6 or the former SERE-5 or the old Ontario versions and knows their way around edged weapons and is skilled with them would know that they are more than "suitable" as fighters. I think you should stick to your own excellent advice. Glocks are excellent handguns. Unfortunately, there are many places where they cannot go legally - along with fixed blade knives I might add - but on the trails in part of my state, some places I can carry a FB, some places not. We could go over and over on this but it would be to no end. You don't even know enough about edged weapons to know what you don't know and your own words show it. "Sure, you could slice someone up with one, but that's not their intended function." Really? Would you care to explain the difference between cutting meat and cutting meat? Field dress a deer, open an attacker up, no difference to me.

uh...yeah.
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So much for "keeping the conversation on an adult level". Your personal attacks are very constructive, thank you. I don't know enough about edged weapons to know that I don't know anything? And this allegation is based on what, exactly?

I maintain that there is quite a bit of difference between field dressing a deer and cutting open an attacker. Usually, a deer is dead and not trying to kill you when you are field dressing him. If you are in the habit of field dressing live, armed and enraged deer, who have been genetically engineered to walk on two legs and possess human intelligence, I will bow to your expertise on the matter.

Obviously, any knife can be used to fight with. A person can be killed with a Swiss Army Knife or a box cutter. Does this mean that I'm stupid if I don't recommend these as "fighting knives"? In the knife community, there are generally accepted parameters for a knife to be considered a "fighter". The archetypal "fighter" being the USMC Ka-Bar, expanded upon by variations by Fairbarn-Sykes, Loveless, and Randall. None of the RAT models are designed within "fighter" parameters. They are primarily utility/ survival knives. This is not to say that they can not be useful as defensive weapons.

I fail to see how calling someone's remarks "bullshit" or denigrating their opinion as "stupid" elevates the level of discourse, or helps the OP with his question.
 
moonwilson said:
So much for "keeping the conversation on an adult level". Your personal attacks are very constructive, thank you. I don't know enough about edged weapons to know that I don't know anything? And this allegation is based on what, exactly?

I maintain that there is quite a bit of difference between field dressing a deer and cutting open an attacker. Usually, a deer is dead and not trying to kill you when you are field dressing him. If you are in the habit of field dressing live, armed and enraged deer, who have been genetically engineered to walk on two legs and possess human intelligence, I will bow to your expertise on the matter.
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Meat is meat, nevermind the Gary Larson, Far Side visions. :D

Obviously, any knife can be used to fight with. A person can be killed with a Swiss Army Knife or a box cutter. Does this mean that I'm stupid if I don't recommend these as "fighting knives"? In the knife community, there are generally accepted parameters for a knife to be considered a "fighter". The archetypal "fighter" being the USMC Ka-Bar, expanded upon by variations by Fairbarn-Sykes, Loveless, and Randall. None of the RAT models are designed within "fighter" parameters. They are primarily utility/ survival knives. This is not to say that they can not be useful as defensive weapons.
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Yeah, that's the problem. A RAT RC3, 4, 5 or 6 is a better fighter than a Kabar or Fairbairn-Sykes, or an Applegate-Fairbairn, for that matter. Loveless and Randalls are beautiful knives but there is nothing physical or mystical that make them "better" than a RAT knife - or a lot of other knives, not just trying to blow smoke about RAT knives.

This is what I am talking about, regurgitation, do you have original thoughts on this or are you simply banging away on this line of thought - "In the knife community, there are generally accepted parameters for a knife to be considered a 'fighter.' The archetypal 'fighter...'"

Stick with the Glock 19, it's a solid choice and to be honest, most people are not cut out to gut and fillet someone. You think it is so different, butchering game and people. I understand dead deer don't fight back, I also understand that there is nothing physical or mystical about these fighting knives you list that would give me an edge in a fight against something living versus something that is dead.

Everyone has a talisman to protect them from evil, there has been no greater talisman on forums than "fighting knives" or "tactical knives" or "tactical this" or "that" or the "other." It's bullshit. Kill your idols. :D
 
Don Rearic said:
Kill your idols. :D
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And all the rest of the post before it. :thumbup:

I don't know why people don't see it. A knife can be a weapon, but you need to have it with you and you need to know how to use it. Nothing else matters.

See the knives Fred Perrin makes for fighting? You can hide one of them in your palm. This is not dueling with the Three Musketeers. You may need a knife when a man invades your space. You will not need a rapier to reach him.

Attitude, alertness, training. Choice of toys optional.
 
Don Rearic said:
Meat is meat, nevermind the Gary Larson, Far Side visions. :D

Everyone has a talisman to protect them from evil, there has been no greater talisman on forums than "fighting knives" or "tactical knives" or "tactical this" or "that" or the "other." It's bullshit. Kill your idols. :D
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I agree. I don't subscribe to the fantasy mindset behind "fighting knives" at all. I have no desire whatsoever to get in a "knife fight"- ever. I understood the OP's question to be "which RAT is the best fighter"- so I responded within how I understood the generic parameters of a "fighting knife" to be. Not knowing the OP, and not knowing how he is used to using a knife, I was trying to be helpful.

I still maintain that there is quite a bit of difference between field dressing a deer and using a knife to fight a person. :D Different types of knives are more optimal for each of these tasks, and would be different for different people- depending on how they are used to using a blade. For some people, an Ulu would be the perfect knife for skinning. For others, a Buck 301 is perfect, for others, a Dozier skinner would be right. For "knife fighting"- I agree with Esav that it totally depends on how you are used to using a knife. I don't carry a knife for "fighting", I have better tools for that. I do carry a RC-4 every day in my bag, which could be pressed into service if needed. I could probably get to my Sebenza faster, though.

So I guess my answer to the OP's question "which RAT is the best fighter" would be "RC-4". That's what I carry- and I suppose it's my "default fighting knife" if there's nothing else handy.

Esav Benyamin said:
Attitude, alertness, training. Choice of toys optional.
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Yes. If you know you're going to be in a fight, choose a better tool than a knife. Or better yet, don't be there in the first place.
 
Don Rearic said:
Everyone has a talisman to protect them from evil, there has been no greater talisman on forums than "fighting knives" or "tactical knives" or "tactical this" or "that" or the "other." It's bullshit. Kill your idols. :D
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Isnt it common knowledge that "tactical" is just amazingly clever marketing...?

I think its done for the knife and gear companies what "lite" has done for beer.

Anyway, I don't think I will ever be in a situation where I need to use a knife (or gun) in a fight (I'm a fast runner and have insurance on my rolex) BUT, if I was, I would just keep the knife hidden and discretely draw when up close, locked up or grappling and get 'em by complete surprise... Why let them know what you have? In that case, the Izula would be perfect.

Just an opinion from someone who has no real experience on this topic (and doesn't ever intend on gaining any).
 
At least lite beer really does have less calories.

Most 'tacticool' gear is just, well, gear with the word tactical added on to the front end of the name with the intent of selling more units.

So don't be lumping in perfectly good alcoholic beverages with poorly designed cutlery.

Or I'll sic the Anheuser Busch Clydesdales on ya! ;)
 
1.) There's no such thing as a "perfectly good" lite beer.
2.) Lite beer is like saying "non-alcoholic whiskey" :D

3.) I'd pick the RC6 for a knife fight over the others.
 
How dare you say there is no such thing as good lite beer!!!!! :D

I believe we need to argue, debate and fight about this just to keep in the spirit of this thread!

In all seriousness, I think any tactics, tools and situations are always fluid depending on the circumstances. To say it is useless to fight train with a certain tool is as wrong as saying it is mandatory that we fight train with certain tools. Any training that exercises the mind is always a good thing, IMO. What works for one may not work for another. What we train for will probably be directly opposite than the situation that will happen. I don't marry myself to any particular gun, knife, tactic, training method, etc. We train people to survive, escape, etc. but in all reality how many people will ever use that? So, to say that knife fighting is useless is limiting yourself, even though it's highly unlikely you will never use what you train for. Doesn't make it wrong though.

Jeff
 
Time to put my $0.02 in. Your skill will determine how effective your knife/weapon is. Anything in the RAT line can be a weapon if you have the wit and will to make it so. Sure they're not equipped with fighting quillions and Spanish notches and sharpened false edges and such, but neither is the Filipino punal. Lots of dead Spaniards and Filipinos will attest to the punal's effectiveness. Dan Inosanto with a rattan stick is far deadlier than Sam Jacks (me) with a custom Bagwell bowie. It all depends on your skill and your willingness to use what you have on hand as a weapon. That's how I see it anyway. I could be wrong.
 
Esav Benyamin said:
Because in many jurisdictions, carrying a dedicated fighting knife like that Fallkniven Garm would be considered looking for trouble, and the minor advantage over a solid utility blade is really minimal, especially if you have no special training in either. A scuffed up RC-3 would be a decent defensive option and attract less attention.
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Im merely suggesting that it would be about as good as you can get. i find these threads to be a bit silly in the sense that you can stab a man to death with a pencil but the best person poker is by far a double edged dagger. and a simple dagger like the garm with its small size and light wait can be carried close to the body. the Op was asking about an SD dedicated knife not an excellent utility knife that can be used to defend himself and that is why i answered in this fashion. as for attracting attention why would anyone else know that he has it a weapon thats concealed draws no attention unless concealed poorly.
 
razorsdescent said:
the Op was asking about an SD dedicated knife not an excellent utility knife that can be used to defend himself and that is why i answered in this fashion.
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Not jumping on your shit, just using your comment as a springboard.

I can't see the sense in carrying a self defense specific blade at the expense of overall utility.

Very few people really need a "fightin" knife and if your carrying a knife that sacrifices utilitarian ability for better killing capability I think your doing yourself a disservice. Not only by having a knife that can't perform everyday tasks as well, but also by putting yourself in the spotlight if the police or "other" were to find that knife.

I can pass off an RC-3 or 4 as a standard, everyday utility blade much easier than I could a double edged fighting knife and the fighting ability lost is negligable, not to mention that I have almost as much chance of getting into a knife fight as I do getting gored to death by a hippo on the streets of my town.
 
RatDrall said:
Which knife, the RC-4, RC-5 or RC-6 would work best as a fighting knife? I understand that RAT knives are primarily survival oriented, but I appreciate a knife that can be used for survival as well as other emergencies.
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razorsdescent said:
the Op was asking about an SD dedicated knife not an excellent utility knife that can be used to defend himself and that is why i answered in this fashion. as for attracting attention why would anyone else know that he has it a weapon thats concealed draws no attention unless concealed poorly.
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Read the original post again -- he specifically mentions the RATs as primarily survival and wants to know which of them is best for fighting as well.

You can conceal the Garm or even larger knives until you need to use them. At that point, saying you were up against the wall and fell back on an old work knife beats showing off your classic assassin's weapon. :)
 
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