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Re-examining the steel snobs.
- Thread starter Kevin R. Cashen
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Henry David Thoreau contrasts the approach of two fathers to their sons education.
One sends his son to the university to learn the science of metals and upon graduation gives him a Rogers Pen Knife.
The other lad decides to make his own knife, mines his ore, smelts his steel and develops his own knife.
"Which one is most likely to cut his finger?"
We all had to start somewhere, most of us had no instruction at first, but made many knives and if we tested their quality learned what worked and what did not work.
There are no dumb questions, I will answer any who ask.
One sends his son to the university to learn the science of metals and upon graduation gives him a Rogers Pen Knife.
The other lad decides to make his own knife, mines his ore, smelts his steel and develops his own knife.
"Which one is most likely to cut his finger?"
We all had to start somewhere, most of us had no instruction at first, but made many knives and if we tested their quality learned what worked and what did not work.
There are no dumb questions, I will answer any who ask.
Don't get me wrong...a well executed hunter is a thing of beauty, but there's an awful lot of ugly ones out there with fat blades and/or wide handles that just look 'off'.
I mention it because a previous post talked about newbies not having an eye for design. A good eye for design is something that people can be born with or can (hopefully) learn.
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The design part of it is a great point. A great steel with an excellent HT won't make much of a knife if you can't hang on to it or it has a 45 degree edge.
The point about the stickies is great to. Should be required reading before you can ask a question. LOL I read almost everything here, almost everyday. It is amazing how many times the same question is asked in the same few days and sometimes the same day.
The point about the stickies is great to. Should be required reading before you can ask a question. LOL I read almost everything here, almost everyday. It is amazing how many times the same question is asked in the same few days and sometimes the same day.
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Bruce, first I would like to thank you for taking the time to write out a thoughtful response, it shows that you do care enough to actually be engaged and contribute to the issue. Most are now wandering so far from any point that is even remotely relevant to the thread topic that I have to appreciate the time you took to participate in the original spirit of the thread.
I had just assumed that the heavy corrosion would establish carbon steel, but your point about the magnet and stainless possibilities is a good one, thank you for that bit.
As for the subsequent instruction, your step by step on the forging and shaping, while it is the standard regardless of the steel, is none the less exactly what new guys need. When we get right down to the heart of it your process it is once again the only reasonable thing we can do with the information at hand:
Heat it to non-magnetic and quench it. If air doesnt work, try oil, if oil, doesnt work move to water. This followed by tempering until it behaves in a way similar to your desires.
The suggestions echo my own that I have given in this thread, a simple generic trial and error recipe that can be described in a couple of sentences. It does indeed leave a world of mysteries to explore that could keep a guy engaged for countless hours. It may be my misunderstanding what people are asking for but I assume if they are here, they are seeking to eliminate some of that trial and error and are looking to jump ahead a few steps. I honestly have no judgment, contempt or malice in my heart when I try to give advice that would eliminate steps 1, 2, 7 part of 8 and all of 9, allowing the guy to spend all of the time saved on the actual making of the knife and the skills that go with it.
What a great feeling it is to get that thumbs up sign in a follow up post when after I told a guy how to avoid squeaking a drill on 1095 or O1! If all he had for me was that it was some sort of scrap, the only thing I or anybody else could have told him is to try half a dozen things, squeak a similar number of good drill bits and let us know how it worked out. Or I could tell somebody to put their steel in the hot forge for the nigh to anneal, only to find that he was working with more than .9% carbon and I have told the poor guy how to embrittle all of his blades.
Considering this, I would feel the best thing for me to do is first do no harm and keep exacting advice to myself and stick with heat it to nonmagnetic, quench it, it is kind of like reducing Newtons Principia down to hey apples fall, but what choice do we have?
In the end my questions of how do I properly heat treat it? What is the appropriate soak temp? What quenching medium should work best, air, oil or water? What hardness can I expect, and what tempering temperatures should I use? are still either unanswered or left for me to find out on my own, which kind of causes me to reflect as to why I came on a forum for the answers.
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Other than reasonable discussions are very difficult to have on this topic, one thing that is obvious is that both side have a very difficult time understanding the thinking of the other. Let me be the first to admit that I certainly suffer from this problem, but also allow me to take a first step in attempting to improve my understanding. First we must avoid reading sarcasm or other negative tones that absolutely are not there in my questions. This is sincerely an attempt to gain insight on a position and approach that I currently am struggling with, and it would mean a lot to me to finally get a better understanding of it.
First- Do you folks who enjoy remaking old articles into knives consider the idea that modern steel alloys are countless variations in chemistry, each with their own specific heat treating requirements, False?
Please take this question as sincerely as it is asked, I know there are highly intelligent people who honestly believe much of our modern specifics are simply overrated and unnecessary if not hoaxes. If you simply do not believe that any alloying necessitates changes in the heat treatment I can get a better idea as to why the other position would seem haughty to you.
Second- Do you find the idea that using exact times at temperature along with precise quenching methods according to the specs are simply unnecessary over-thinking, when one simple recipe such as heating to nonmagnetic and plunging into oil will get the same results?
I probably have a dozen other questions I would truly enjoy sincere answers to but I will only ask a third for now.
If you sincerely answered “yes” to both of the above, have you seen information to the contrary or would you be willing to allow me or others to give some information as to why the answers could be different, and in the process give more information in support of your position?
First- Do you folks who enjoy remaking old articles into knives consider the idea that modern steel alloys are countless variations in chemistry, each with their own specific heat treating requirements, False?
Please take this question as sincerely as it is asked, I know there are highly intelligent people who honestly believe much of our modern specifics are simply overrated and unnecessary if not hoaxes. If you simply do not believe that any alloying necessitates changes in the heat treatment I can get a better idea as to why the other position would seem haughty to you.
Second- Do you find the idea that using exact times at temperature along with precise quenching methods according to the specs are simply unnecessary over-thinking, when one simple recipe such as heating to nonmagnetic and plunging into oil will get the same results?
I probably have a dozen other questions I would truly enjoy sincere answers to but I will only ask a third for now.
If you sincerely answered “yes” to both of the above, have you seen information to the contrary or would you be willing to allow me or others to give some information as to why the answers could be different, and in the process give more information in support of your position?
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Kevin...I know that all the different types of recycled steel will have different properties and need proper heat treatment of it's own...I also do believe that using a heat treat oven for proper heat and times will benefiet a blades performance,and if you have the proper oven or way of heat treating that is the way it should be done.And that is why I stick with my 5160 as it does work well in the forge and I have figured out how to get as close to a proper heat treat as I can with my shop set up,If I was to change steels I would deinately change my heat treating ways....
Lets see if I can explain.
When I started making knives I was setting on the crane in the yard and said I can use this metal to make me a better knife than I got from Pakistan and wal mart.Problem was I didnt know anybody that made knives.I picked up blade magazine and a copy of the Bo Randall story and read them cover to cover then David Boyes book and that was all I knew,I did know I needed a good steel,problem was I didnt have access to any and couldnt find a supplier around me,so I was stuck with scrap.I asked lots of questions from any and all shops we dealt with and gained what knowledge I could and a old beat up grinder.I had no choice but learn how to figure out steel and do it the old ways,I figured if that way was good enough for the old timers it should still work....and now it is hard to break old habits even when grinding backwards and upside down(lol)...Then I finally met a maker and got some known steel and was able to do better.I for one will not say it is 5160 if it is a leaf spring,I will say it is a leaf spring.
Some day I will grow up and buy a oven..lolol...
Now to the future,If I was to start now I might still want to try stuff from the scrap pile but use it mostly for guards and butcaps.If a guy is going to buy scrap to try his first knife I would say to spend that money on known steel heck it is just a mouse click away now (not like me when I started) My only problem is how to get a proper soak time and temp without a controlled oven,most newbi's wanting to use scrap probably dont have the $ to buy one....How then do you explain the heat treat with a known steel and no modern equipment? a Magnet is the best choice....
I dont feel that todays begginers have to resort to scrap unless that is the path they want to choose and the journey they want to take,but for those who do choose that path,I say dont expect us to tell you all the particulars like we can with a known steel,no short cuts to learning scrap steel,it has to be learned by yourself in your shop setup,we can give guidence when needed and can give philosophy when it fails,but all in all it is in that persons ball park to fail or prevail,if they choose to try and fail and complain that is their fault and we shouldnt have to be held responseable for the failure or expected to figure it out for them...if a newbi wants to take advice and use known steel so people can explain what is happening and shorten the learning curve to a well heat treated blade then they will listen when you tell them the best path to take....
I dont know about some of you but the forging - grinding- and heat treating of the blade is the least time consuming part of building a knife,that is just the first step,the real work starts after that is accomplished...
So by all means take the quicker more reliable path and use a known steel when at all possiable,and now days that shouldnt be hard.
enough rambling,
Bruce
Lets see if I can explain.
When I started making knives I was setting on the crane in the yard and said I can use this metal to make me a better knife than I got from Pakistan and wal mart.Problem was I didnt know anybody that made knives.I picked up blade magazine and a copy of the Bo Randall story and read them cover to cover then David Boyes book and that was all I knew,I did know I needed a good steel,problem was I didnt have access to any and couldnt find a supplier around me,so I was stuck with scrap.I asked lots of questions from any and all shops we dealt with and gained what knowledge I could and a old beat up grinder.I had no choice but learn how to figure out steel and do it the old ways,I figured if that way was good enough for the old timers it should still work....and now it is hard to break old habits even when grinding backwards and upside down(lol)...Then I finally met a maker and got some known steel and was able to do better.I for one will not say it is 5160 if it is a leaf spring,I will say it is a leaf spring.
Some day I will grow up and buy a oven..lolol...
Now to the future,If I was to start now I might still want to try stuff from the scrap pile but use it mostly for guards and butcaps.If a guy is going to buy scrap to try his first knife I would say to spend that money on known steel heck it is just a mouse click away now (not like me when I started) My only problem is how to get a proper soak time and temp without a controlled oven,most newbi's wanting to use scrap probably dont have the $ to buy one....How then do you explain the heat treat with a known steel and no modern equipment? a Magnet is the best choice....
I dont feel that todays begginers have to resort to scrap unless that is the path they want to choose and the journey they want to take,but for those who do choose that path,I say dont expect us to tell you all the particulars like we can with a known steel,no short cuts to learning scrap steel,it has to be learned by yourself in your shop setup,we can give guidence when needed and can give philosophy when it fails,but all in all it is in that persons ball park to fail or prevail,if they choose to try and fail and complain that is their fault and we shouldnt have to be held responseable for the failure or expected to figure it out for them...if a newbi wants to take advice and use known steel so people can explain what is happening and shorten the learning curve to a well heat treated blade then they will listen when you tell them the best path to take....
I dont know about some of you but the forging - grinding- and heat treating of the blade is the least time consuming part of building a knife,that is just the first step,the real work starts after that is accomplished...
So by all means take the quicker more reliable path and use a known steel when at all possiable,and now days that shouldnt be hard.
enough rambling,
Bruce
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Tai Goo
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Kevin, let me try and answer your questions with a couple questions?…. If you would be kind enough to give me your attention for 1 quick second?…
What language are we speaking here?,… Is it English or some other manner of speech or dialect that no one else seems to understand?
Too bad we can't have any IRL hang time together in the junk yard, smithy and lab together! And in the hot tub! LOL
What language are we speaking here?,… Is it English or some other manner of speech or dialect that no one else seems to understand?
Too bad we can't have any IRL hang time together in the junk yard, smithy and lab together! And in the hot tub! LOL
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Tai,
I would be very interested in your ANSWERS to Kevins questions.
Del
I would be very interested in your ANSWERS to Kevins questions.
Del
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(preface note. I like known steel. I would recommend it, buy it, sell it, give it away to someone who needs it for their first knife, whatver. BUT
Tai has a point, I had to pull out the evil LISP parentheses to parse that first question.
I think that for the most part "the idea that modern steel alloys being countless variations in chemistry each with their own specific heat treating requirements" is true.
There are many many variations with different heat treats, but many of them can be lumped into some broad categories. A new maker who is learning by messing with steel can take anything in the 1060-1084 range and probably get a decent heat treat on it without much variation. Will the same method work for 15N20? Mmmm, not quite.
I learned a lot about types of steel and heat treatments in my 'random recycler' phase. I also met some people with collections of ancient metal. I also learned a lot of frustrating lessons about heat treatment, but... would I be better off if I had NEVER cracked a blade? Never gotten a successful brine quench? never tried motor oil and switched in disgust ? I dunno.
"Second- Do you find the idea that using exact times at temperature along with precise quenching methods according to the specs are simply unnecessary over-thinking, when one simple recipe such as heating to nonmagnetic and plunging into oil will get the same results?"
Oh, hell no! no no no! But I value learning this lesson. And, honestly, if I was stuck rigidly into the precise quenching methods I never woulda gotten started. That's the BIGGEST thing. It wasn't so much money as it was this assemblage of parts. It's like having kids- you will NEVER be ready, you just gotta go do it.
This sort of goes into a different topic- the known steel idea also comes with a corollary "proper equipment" idea. A lot of times, we can't do it.
And still, I don't have thousands of dollars of precise equipment, I make do. Sometimes it's erratic and I have to test. Sometimes it's *weird*. But I manage. Someday I will manage with more, better, cooler tools!
For me, the birth of a knifemaker - perhaps not "should", but "can be advantaged by" - the microcosmic evolution from pounding on random iron iron in a fire all the way to reading charts and learning interrupted quenching and such. Sorta like watching a fetus go from soccer ball to baby.
Tai has a point, I had to pull out the evil LISP parentheses to parse that first question.
I think that for the most part "the idea that modern steel alloys being countless variations in chemistry each with their own specific heat treating requirements" is true.
There are many many variations with different heat treats, but many of them can be lumped into some broad categories. A new maker who is learning by messing with steel can take anything in the 1060-1084 range and probably get a decent heat treat on it without much variation. Will the same method work for 15N20? Mmmm, not quite.
I learned a lot about types of steel and heat treatments in my 'random recycler' phase. I also met some people with collections of ancient metal. I also learned a lot of frustrating lessons about heat treatment, but... would I be better off if I had NEVER cracked a blade? Never gotten a successful brine quench? never tried motor oil and switched in disgust
? I dunno. "Second- Do you find the idea that using exact times at temperature along with precise quenching methods according to the specs are simply unnecessary over-thinking, when one simple recipe such as heating to nonmagnetic and plunging into oil will get the same results?"
Oh, hell no! no no no! But I value learning this lesson. And, honestly, if I was stuck rigidly into the precise quenching methods I never woulda gotten started. That's the BIGGEST thing. It wasn't so much money as it was this assemblage of parts. It's like having kids- you will NEVER be ready, you just gotta go do it.
This sort of goes into a different topic- the known steel idea also comes with a corollary "proper equipment" idea. A lot of times, we can't do it.
And still, I don't have thousands of dollars of precise equipment, I make do. Sometimes it's erratic and I have to test. Sometimes it's *weird*. But I manage. Someday I will manage with more, better, cooler tools!
For me, the birth of a knifemaker - perhaps not "should", but "can be advantaged by" - the microcosmic evolution from pounding on random iron iron in a fire all the way to reading charts and learning interrupted quenching and such. Sorta like watching a fetus go from soccer ball to baby.
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A recycled spring is no less a modern steel alloy than 1084 or 5160. However unknown it may be at the moment for the newbie, it is no less a modern alloy.
No.
N/A
My first years of knife making consisted of totally stock removal blades, using known steel. (IE. 1075, 1080, 1095) My primary tools were a home built two burner propane forge, a 4"x36" belt grinder, floor model drill press(Chinese). My heat treat was done in preheated canola oil. Tempering in the stove oven.
About 4 years into my knife making, I started forging my blades, again using the same known steels. I have also made blades from hay rake tines, cultivator spring tines and harrow disks (old articles). I have an old railroad spring clip, dredged from a local river, that I will use to make a couple of personal knives.
Each knife I sell comes with a printed letter of provenance thats lists all info on materials used. More than once, I have had a customer choose the knife made from "used articles" over a similar knife made from known steel.
"First- Do you folks who enjoy remaking old articles into knives consider the idea that modern steel alloys are countless variations in chemistry, each with their own specific heat treating requirements, False?"
Absolutely not.
"Second- Do you find the idea that using exact times at temperature along with precise quenching methods according to the specs are simply unnecessary over-thinking, when one simple recipe such as heating to nonmagnetic and plunging into oil will get the same results? "
"the same results" statement makes this question difficult to answer. I don't have the funds(probably never will) to purchase an oven that is capable of precise soak/temp control. With modern alloy steels, the answer would be, No. With simple carbon steels, the answer would be a qualified,Yes. As I have learned from you(Kevin) and others, even simple steels do not fall into the "heat to nonmagnetic and plunge into oil" category. Not just any oil will do, nonmagnetic is an indicator of being close, and prequench normalizing all come into play.
Enough rambling. I greatly value all the information that Kevin, Mete and other metal gurus have provided. Nothing taught or learned is ever wasted time for the teacher or student. Will I ever be able to fully utilize all you guys have put forth? Most likely, no. But I might win the lottery and buy more toys and need all of it.
About 4 years into my knife making, I started forging my blades, again using the same known steels. I have also made blades from hay rake tines, cultivator spring tines and harrow disks (old articles). I have an old railroad spring clip, dredged from a local river, that I will use to make a couple of personal knives.
Each knife I sell comes with a printed letter of provenance thats lists all info on materials used. More than once, I have had a customer choose the knife made from "used articles" over a similar knife made from known steel.
"First- Do you folks who enjoy remaking old articles into knives consider the idea that modern steel alloys are countless variations in chemistry, each with their own specific heat treating requirements, False?"
Absolutely not.
"Second- Do you find the idea that using exact times at temperature along with precise quenching methods according to the specs are simply unnecessary over-thinking, when one simple recipe such as heating to nonmagnetic and plunging into oil will get the same results? "
"the same results" statement makes this question difficult to answer. I don't have the funds(probably never will) to purchase an oven that is capable of precise soak/temp control. With modern alloy steels, the answer would be, No. With simple carbon steels, the answer would be a qualified,Yes. As I have learned from you(Kevin) and others, even simple steels do not fall into the "heat to nonmagnetic and plunge into oil" category. Not just any oil will do, nonmagnetic is an indicator of being close, and prequench normalizing all come into play.
Enough rambling. I greatly value all the information that Kevin, Mete and other metal gurus have provided. Nothing taught or learned is ever wasted time for the teacher or student. Will I ever be able to fully utilize all you guys have put forth? Most likely, no. But I might win the lottery and buy more toys and need all of it.
Tai Goo
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"No" to the first two questions...
I think some of the newbies ask better questions and state them more clearly though.
Steel is steel, no matter which end you work it from.
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Well Said! No matter how you get there your still gonna have a knife.
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Once again we are getting side tracked, perhaps because I wasnt specific enough as to whom this thread was addressed but we have subsequently focused on the more experienced guys using scrap; I see self professed steel snobs, I see proud recyclers, but I seen very few self proclaimed newbies here. Because of this I did direct my questions to the guys who have been doing it long enough to have the opportunity to equip a shop in any manner then may need, and was trying to get a better understanding of where they are coming from. I chose the novel approach of trying to see it from the other guys perspective for a second instead of digging in and lobbing incendiary one liners, forgive me for that transgression. If that approach gets too out of hand perhaps I could help the discussion along with some inane one person inside jokes, post some song lyrics or an image that just leaves everybody scratching their head, you know, the real constructive and relevant stuff.
Bruce, Kyote, 69 Knives, NC_Cooter, thank you! You met me halfway, gave me sincere and constructive input, regardless of how we make our knives you have my respect and goodwill for that. I really dont have any rebuttals, ahahs! or gotchas since I really asked the questions to get better grasp of other peoples views, cluttering it with mine would not accomplish that. A whole lot more people jumped in earlier (for some it was the most contribution they have made) to get their $.02 heard, you guys took the time to allow me to understand you as well as hear you. That makes you pretty cool in my book:thumbup:
No but I believe there can be dumb answers, and I just dont want to give an uninformed one that could cause more harm than good. With the length of my average post
it should be obvious that I will answer in detail any question I feel I can help with, short of that, on this topic at least heat it up, quench it, if doesnt work try it again is still the best any of us can do. Perhaps that is the source of my frustration, I really do want to give more than that and when I cant it troubles me.
Is it just me or is this thread feeling like those last few people in the pre-dawn hours of January 1 who are still continuing with croaking voices after the party faded hours ago. I do that every year as long as my guests are still talking to me
Bruce, Kyote, 69 Knives, NC_Cooter, thank you! You met me halfway, gave me sincere and constructive input, regardless of how we make our knives you have my respect and goodwill for that. I really dont have any rebuttals, ahahs! or gotchas since I really asked the questions to get better grasp of other peoples views, cluttering it with mine would not accomplish that. A whole lot more people jumped in earlier (for some it was the most contribution they have made) to get their $.02 heard, you guys took the time to allow me to understand you as well as hear you. That makes you pretty cool in my book:thumbup:
No but I believe there can be dumb answers, and I just dont want to give an uninformed one that could cause more harm than good. With the length of my average post
it should be obvious that I will answer in detail any question I feel I can help with, short of that, on this topic at least heat it up, quench it, if doesnt work try it again is still the best any of us can do. Perhaps that is the source of my frustration, I really do want to give more than that and when I cant it troubles me. Is it just me or is this thread feeling like those last few people in the pre-dawn hours of January 1 who are still continuing with croaking voices after the party faded hours ago. I do that every year as long as my guests are still talking to me
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Hi Kevin
i would have liked to have answered this earlier but had to run out and pick up parcels in sault ste marie, michigan.... I'd would like to say that i don't mind some of the junkyard steels but that is just because i started out with them ... not what i use nowadays on a regular basis by any stretch..
at the very first... i forged anything and gave it the oil dunk to see what happened ... then tested it out on bizarre mediums.. like cutting iron rods,sticking the tip in oak and twisting, and such.. not very good results..
- until i had a small sample of known steels to spark test to ... got a couple pieces from a machine shop.. a2,d2,01...and 1095 scaling bar from mine supply, 5160 from a spring shop drops, also email the file companies and some actually gave me the steel they used or told me to heat treat similar to a similar known steel for good results..
after i had this small library of samples... then i could sort things out better...but it took alot to be able to soak some of the steels.. .. as you have to make a muffle furnace like Tai does and really sit and eyeball the steel ... control the airblast with a hand blower... .. you can do it...and it is very demanding ... i've used to use only coal... and the fire is too hot and my control was not there when i tested the blades out ..... but i switch to charcoal and wood for heat treating and that puffy flame made life alot easier to heat treat..
- i have to say there is much more to it and i'm just not doing this justice... its to do with spending alot of time in front of a fire and failing alot but learning and understanding.... .. understanding... that is an interesting word...
just a story... in university i've taken alot of classes and seen alot of bizarre behaviour... such as microbiology lab for instance.... we had to know alot about very infectious bacteria and vectors... work in the lab with bad bugs.... but you'll see the occasional student in lab touching samples and scratching their face during microscope work, or eating a candy, or putting the head down on the lab table during orientation... .. so what.. they have read about strict lab rules... but did they really understand them..or why..
- by the way.. some of the sample were of syphilis and others that we cultured mutants..
so my long winded point... although they were book smart, if they would have understood more about the connection of disease and bacteria they'd be more mindful of their habits.
i'm sorry that story is extreme... but sitting down with some junky steel, and experimenting a little can give you a little bit of understanding of steel... i'm not sure a book can do for alot of us...
back to soak:
-- o1 is a good teacher of that... without a soak.. i found it was ok... but after a decent soak time, 01 became something that really had a nice edge holding ability and did shine during tests !!!
- if you think about it... where are the decent figures for soaking known simple knife steels for appropriate times at appropriate temperatures... I've searched and searched the whole net and you do find stuff but it seems like there is no absolute times for specific alloys.... ofcourse i have seen it for the higher alloy steels that this becomes a big deal... but i'm looking at the simple steel soak times..
- i'm so thankful for the pyrometer and gas forge that i use for heat treating now.... with fine control.. .. you can observe and note results and develop strategies for heat treating with specifics....
quenching... i use mainly heated canola oil... after doing that for years.. and observing, i can tell abit about the steel after the quench ( shallow or deep )
tempering... tempering is tricky... in this case you do a temper according to what you think the steel maybe through all the previous steps and observations.. ( developed through experience ) .. then test the knife... and keep in mind for what this knife is to do.. .. don't be afraid to keep the knife for abit and use it for its intended use.. .. sorry i can't give a blanket temp to start... but then i didn't form a opinion of what steel i thought this was through the previous "feeling out" steps...
hardness.. in a beginner setting... i just didn't have a way to tell what is what... just the file test ( which doesn't say much ) or the chop tests to look for chipping, impacted edge, rolled edge, etc ...
I like how the process evolved for me... and for every piece of technology that i use now in the shop... i sit and have a weird sense of awe.... wow, this pyrometer does a marvelous job... why just 2 weeks ago i was fooling arround with some 5160... i had set up my furnace for w1 and had just ran in and without thinking heatreated the 5160 to the same temp.. why then did it not harden to my liking... was it decarb.. nope.. but with a little scrutiny, i did raise the hardening temp and got the results i wanted...
i'll try to contribute more later
Greg
i would have liked to have answered this earlier but had to run out and pick up parcels in sault ste marie, michigan.... I'd would like to say that i don't mind some of the junkyard steels but that is just because i started out with them ... not what i use nowadays on a regular basis by any stretch..
at the very first... i forged anything and gave it the oil dunk to see what happened ... then tested it out on bizarre mediums.. like cutting iron rods,sticking the tip in oak and twisting, and such.. not very good results..
- until i had a small sample of known steels to spark test to ... got a couple pieces from a machine shop.. a2,d2,01...and 1095 scaling bar from mine supply, 5160 from a spring shop drops, also email the file companies and some actually gave me the steel they used or told me to heat treat similar to a similar known steel for good results..
after i had this small library of samples... then i could sort things out better...but it took alot to be able to soak some of the steels.. .. as you have to make a muffle furnace like Tai does and really sit and eyeball the steel ... control the airblast with a hand blower... .. you can do it...and it is very demanding ... i've used to use only coal... and the fire is too hot and my control was not there when i tested the blades out ..... but i switch to charcoal and wood for heat treating and that puffy flame made life alot easier to heat treat..
- i have to say there is much more to it and i'm just not doing this justice... its to do with spending alot of time in front of a fire and failing alot but learning and understanding.... .. understanding... that is an interesting word...
just a story... in university i've taken alot of classes and seen alot of bizarre behaviour... such as microbiology lab for instance.... we had to know alot about very infectious bacteria and vectors... work in the lab with bad bugs.... but you'll see the occasional student in lab touching samples and scratching their face during microscope work, or eating a candy, or putting the head down on the lab table during orientation... .. so what.. they have read about strict lab rules... but did they really understand them..or why..
- by the way.. some of the sample were of syphilis and others that we cultured mutants..
so my long winded point... although they were book smart, if they would have understood more about the connection of disease and bacteria they'd be more mindful of their habits.
i'm sorry that story is extreme... but sitting down with some junky steel, and experimenting a little can give you a little bit of understanding of steel... i'm not sure a book can do for alot of us...
back to soak:
-- o1 is a good teacher of that... without a soak.. i found it was ok... but after a decent soak time, 01 became something that really had a nice edge holding ability and did shine during tests !!!
- if you think about it... where are the decent figures for soaking known simple knife steels for appropriate times at appropriate temperatures... I've searched and searched the whole net and you do find stuff but it seems like there is no absolute times for specific alloys.... ofcourse i have seen it for the higher alloy steels that this becomes a big deal... but i'm looking at the simple steel soak times..
- i'm so thankful for the pyrometer and gas forge that i use for heat treating now.... with fine control.. .. you can observe and note results and develop strategies for heat treating with specifics....
quenching... i use mainly heated canola oil... after doing that for years.. and observing, i can tell abit about the steel after the quench ( shallow or deep )
tempering... tempering is tricky... in this case you do a temper according to what you think the steel maybe through all the previous steps and observations.. ( developed through experience ) .. then test the knife... and keep in mind for what this knife is to do.. .. don't be afraid to keep the knife for abit and use it for its intended use.. .. sorry i can't give a blanket temp to start... but then i didn't form a opinion of what steel i thought this was through the previous "feeling out" steps...
hardness.. in a beginner setting... i just didn't have a way to tell what is what... just the file test ( which doesn't say much ) or the chop tests to look for chipping, impacted edge, rolled edge, etc ...
I like how the process evolved for me... and for every piece of technology that i use now in the shop... i sit and have a weird sense of awe.... wow, this pyrometer does a marvelous job... why just 2 weeks ago i was fooling arround with some 5160... i had set up my furnace for w1 and had just ran in and without thinking heatreated the 5160 to the same temp.. why then did it not harden to my liking... was it decarb.. nope.. but with a little scrutiny, i did raise the hardening temp and got the results i wanted...
i'll try to contribute more later
Greg
Tai Goo
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O.K. since you asked, I will,.... but I don't want it to just be my input and would like to invite everyone who has some positive information to join in. I'll throw in my two cents if I think I have anything constructive to add to it, as my time permits.
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Once again we are getting side tracked, perhaps because I wasnt specific enough as to whom this thread was addressed but we have subsequently focused on the more experienced guys using scrap; I see self professed steel snobs, I see proud recyclers, but I seen very few self proclaimed newbies here. every year as long as my guests are still talking to me
Kevin
I can add my perspective as a newbie. I have been interested for several years but have only made 3 kit knives and 8 sole authorship knives. I got interested because I have a gimpy little finger on my right hand. I could not find a fillet knife with a handle I could grip, with wet slimy hands. I bought a kit from TKS and love my homemade fish fillet knife. I was invited to THE BLADE SHOW by a friend who is a small time collector. I watched two old guys, Moran & Hendrickson, forge a knife. I bought another coupla kits and was on my way.
I later discovered Blade Forums. WOW. One of the first threads I read was by Raymond Richards showing one of the prettiest knives I had ever seen, made from a buggy spring I loved the knife and the provenance!! After reading many months I bought some 0-1 bar stock from Fastenal and began. I started with known steel because I had read You, Mete,Fitzo, Deker, several Richards, IG,Nick and Mr. Fowler talk about steel. I started with stock removal so as to eliminate as many variables as possible. I figger I have to grind the blade No matter how it is shaped. I took a Machine tool class and made a KMG Clone and used the HT oven there to HT my first 4 blades, 0-1 using a recepe I got here. I am learning the basics of metallurgy, from the repetitive and patient teaching that goes on here! When I master grinding, I will learn to forge! I hope to master several know steels maybe then some damascus combos.
I can not recite from memory the ites progression during the HTing of steel but I am learning! I hope to eventually develop my skill to include using old steel/nostalgic steel!!
I hope one day I could make a knife for any friend, having several known steels for him to choose from. In that vein if he brought me some family treasure, I could work with the steel, testing it to get the best knife possible from it.
My point basically is that without this forum and the private advice of forumites.
I would be dead in the water making crappy KSOs and not know that they were!
I believe that I owe the Pros here a debt I can never repay. I am totally amazed at the generosity of men who set industry standards.
I am also amazed at the grief yall endure. The anonymous nature of the web lets a man speak to another in ways he would not, face to face. Kinda like a bucket of crabs.
Most newbs, I believe, feel that we have so little to add we say nothing!
WE DO APPRECIATE IT VERY MUCH THOUGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is my first rant so yall
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