Re-examining the steel snobs.

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OK Kevin here goes...

Lets start out with,do you know if it is a stainless steel or carbon,Stainless will barely pull a magnet...If the magnet does not stick to it then you have rel stainless and it wont work for a knife only a guard,yes stainless will stain if it is around rusty steel and you wont know it isnt the rusty steel unless you check...If the magnet barely pulls to it you will have a series of stainless and unless you have a way of getting it analized I would use it for guards...Now on to the next step if it isnt stainless.

Have you tried a simple quick oil quench after heating to non magnetic,then doing a bend test in the vice,if so did it break or bend?

Ok It broke,now your on your way to making a knife that will cut....First lets do about 3 normalizing heats on this piece of steel then one more heat and put it in your vermiculite or closed gas forge(with the forge full hot and gas and air off)and closed door.Let the steel cool till it is completely at room temp or 24 hours later....

Now forge the blade to your desired shape...lets normalize the bar 3 more times and let cool to room temp to relive any stress caused by forging....

take the blade to the grinder and shape it then do about half your grind on the blade and polish out to about 400 grit...

now back to the forge and normalize 3 more times ..while you are doing this heat your quench oil to around 120 deg. (or heat a 1/2 inch rod of mild steel to a quenching heat and put it in tour quench tank,of a gallon or a little less) now after the third normalizing heat is cooled down bring the blade up to non magnetic and quench...check the edge with a new file,it slid across the edge ,great, now put it in the oven at 350 for 2 hours,if the edge is to hard for the file to just grab in bump the temp up to 400 and try it again,if this is still not soft enough bump it up again at 25 degree intervals untill you get the edge were you want it....now go finish the knife and do some cutting see if it works good or great or doesnt hold a edge ....Now find some known steel and try it and compare the 2 and see if you want to keep using found mystery steel or known...Good luck in your project and if you hve anymore questions just holler and I will see if I can help out any more...

Bruce

On a side not...I am just thinking that since you have a way to forge and grind then you probably have some old motor oil around to quench in or at least a jug of olive oil,and a water bucket...This is the problem with found steel,you dont know what to quench in and unless you have plenty of steel to do some testing on your better off to use that piece of steel for a guard or buttcap.....we can only guess at the steel ourselves and give ou ideas to try but all the experimenting has to be done on your end as we cannot do it for youand we cannot guarantee that it will work at all....If you want known results for your knife then use known steel to get them..Now if your curious-want to play-or experiment- have fun and heart ach-or just dont have anything else for steel,go for it,but we cannot give you a exact recipe for it and sorry to say but you will have to be the scientist,or send the piece of steel out to have it analized....
 
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fitzo said:
BTW, I enjoy your use of the "fora" plural. It seems the drift in language has removed many of the older Latin-derived plurals...viruses, not viri....spatulas, not spatulae....formulas, not formulae, etc...
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OH MY GOD!!! Now we have language drift in addition to thread drift :D I can't hold her together Captain. Jim, I'm a doctor not a bladesmith.... :p

Hell at the end of the day we're all just weirdo knifemakers no matter how we arrived at the end result :P Let's carry this discussion over everyone's favorite beverage... I've got my sweet tea. :D
 
Before you guys flame me..That is how I did it years ago when using mystery steel now I use 5160 almost exclusively and have my way of heat treating it,but that doesnt mean my way will work for someone else...

Just trying to help out a newbi...

LOLOLOL

Bruce
 
Kevin I can't help you with the steel question, but I would offer to Bruce that until you scrape the paint off the broom handle you don't know what you have. This handle came from a hammer handle I got at Lowe's.:D Now I can't go in there without looking.
325861822.jpg
 
Harry,I agree,handle material can come from anywhere.....It was just a funny side of the scrap steel and new steel debate....Scrap handle material or new wood blocks.....A knife is a knife,if it is #1 or 100....are shed antlers scrap handle material since it isnt bought from a supplier? ROFL...

Nice Knife by the way.

Just trying to add a little humor sorry to get off topic Kevin..

Bruce
 
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Bruce when I saw your post I thought "there's a man that has seen the handle material where he found it." I had to post that knife. I made it for myself and use it every day.

I have enjoyed reading this thread. Like many threads I have learned things from it that I didn't expect. I really couldn't help Kevin out with his steel. I know what I would have done to it, but explaining it in a manner that made any kind of sense at all was not something I was going to try.
 
I didn't respond to Kevin about the steel because I'd be a hypocrite if I said anything, since he didn't specify the alloy. :eek: :)
 
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Kevin R. Cashen said:
When these threads get this contentious, it becomes all too easy to misinterpret the words written.

Would you folks indulge me with a little exercise? I promise that this is not meant to inflame the situation or belittle anybody but to help clarify where ssome of us are coming from, which seem to be a bit unfathomable to some. Here it is:

I have a piece of steel here. It is a very nice bar that is not too far from knife dimensions. It has a bit of rust pitting on it but I cleaned most of it off and it sparked differently than any of the low carbon steel I have, nice umbrella shaped bursts. I know how to forge and grind it; after all shaping techniques are pretty much irrelevant to the type of steel. How do I properly heat treat it? What is the appropriate soak temp? What quenching medium should work best, air, oil or water? What hardness can I expect, and what tempering temperatures should I use?

Now telling me to test it out myself and is just a cop out since I came here asking for that information from you and I would hope you would be willing to help me, sending me away may be interpreted as disdain for my question or choices.

If you feel the best thing to do is to tell me I should know my steel better myself I will understand, but I would really like you to help me if you can. How about it?
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Since we have a little game going here :D
what are the rules?
what tools are you allowing yourself to be equipped with?
What level of experience are you allowing yourself to stay within
Does your piece have just enough metal for one knife, or is there a little extra length beyond shaping losses?

I could enjoy this little bit of sport! (without using the little "dropped my hammer and kept smithing" smiley even!

(ok the hammer just hit my toe):eek:

-Page
 
Kevin R. Cashen said:
About the fence post thing, I was talking about the metal "T" posts. Guess why I used that imagery?
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I thought the fence post reference was pretty funny because there's actually a guy with some land around here that had dibs on a bunch of scrap snow plow blades (or maybe it's Zamboni, don't remember) that built part of his fence with them.
 
I'm 50/50. Known steel, even recycled (I sometimes get 15n20 from dan gray, for example) is a joy to work with, but there's something to be said for learning your way around found materials- I learned a lot about heat treating and heating from them. And spark tests and cracks and all sorts of stuff.

Then there's the value in knowing how to make something good out of a certain class of materials. Yeah, there's a learning curve to rebar, but I'm working on a steak knife set in HC rebar that I'd never do in a purchased steel. I've also got a guy out here who has some sentimental attachment to this ancient saw that I need to fold and weld and make into a rigging knife, of all things. He and I both know (I told him) that it's not going to be the ultimate performance blade, but it's fine, he wants a rigging knife made from his grandpaw's saw that made the planks for the house he built eons ago, and he wants to use it on his weekend sailing trips. Nothing wrong with this.

Thing is, it's not a binary proposition. You can do a bit of both, if you think and learn. As many have said- it's the knowledge that counts.
 
I think we are just arguing over hypotheticals now.

This thread seems fairly balanced to me, some on one extreme some on the other, and quite a few balanced and in the middle. That’s all fine with me.

There are always going to be a few real steel snobs out there who think their "opinions" carry more weight than others. I'd just say,... if they come across that way, you don't have to listen to them...
 
Bruce Evans said:
OK Kevin here goes...

Lets start out with,do you know if it is a stainless steel or carbon,Stainless will barely pull a magnet...If the magnet does not stick to it then you have rel stainless and it wont work for a knife only a guard,yes stainless will stain if it is around rusty steel and you wont know it isnt the rusty steel unless you check...If the magnet barely pulls to it you will have a series of stainless and unless you have a way of getting it analized I would use it for guards...Now on to the next step if it isnt stainless.

Have you tried a simple quick oil quench after heating to non magnetic,then doing a bend test in the vice,if so did it break or bend?

Ok It broke,now your on your way to making a knife that will cut....First lets do about 3 normalizing heats on this piece of steel then one more heat and put it in your vermiculite or closed gas forge(with the forge full hot and gas and air off)and closed door.Let the steel cool till it is completely at room temp or 24 hours later....

Now forge the blade to your desired shape...lets normalize the bar 3 more times and let cool to room temp to relive any stress caused by forging....

take the blade to the grinder and shape it then do about half your grind on the blade and polish out to about 400 grit...

now back to the forge and normalize 3 more times ..while you are doing this heat your quench oil to around 120 deg. (or heat a 1/2 inch rod of mild steel to a quenching heat and put it in tour quench tank,of a gallon or a little less) now after the third normalizing heat is cooled down bring the blade up to non magnetic and quench...check the edge with a new file,it slid across the edge ,great, now put it in the oven at 350 for 2 hours,if the edge is to hard for the file to just grab in bump the temp up to 400 and try it again,if this is still not soft enough bump it up again at 25 degree intervals untill you get the edge were you want it....now go finish the knife and do some cutting see if it works good or great or doesnt hold a edge ....Now find some known steel and try it and compare the 2 and see if you want to keep using found mystery steel or known...Good luck in your project and if you hve anymore questions just holler and I will see if I can help out any more...

Bruce
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I would go for most of this except a couple things. I thought that non magnetic was the time to quench to, but, many steels need quite a bit more heat. I would go for 1525 with about 20 minutes soak (the soak won't hurt a simple steel like 1095) and then if when I broke it I had coarse grain I would back off to 1450. I also checked a piece of D2 and the magnet stuck on it hard, I am sure the same would happen with A2 and M4. Even 1525 isn't going to get the most out of these, but I bet if you get it non magnetic and oil quenched it would skate a file. One also needs to address soak time. Part of the clue is in the spark test. First start with a clean grinding wheel as old metal in the wheel might give you a false read. The big burst means a lot of carbon, but, does it have a little orange in the spark? Orange probably means a bit of chrome or tungsten and slower oil. Very much tungsten or Chrome will start killing the sparks, so Kevin's mystery steel is not D2 or M4 or anything else real high in chrome or tungsten that would jack up the HT temperature. Tool steels simplified has some great pictures and descriptions of sparks. I tried the sparks out on everything I had on hand when I read the book. It was hard to tell some apart. It would help a lot if you have a known to compare to.

I believe Bruce would figure out the heat treat on a piece of unknown steel, starting this way, but, he has loads of experience with found steel. He would also realize something was funny as he progressed and stuff did not add up. I am just pointing out a couple of traps in the method that someone with less experience could fall into.

Part of the issue is does the guy asking the question want to learn how to make quality knives or does he want to learn how to classify steels and figure out how to HT and test them. If you want to make a quality knife the short path is to use known steel and then HT it according to its specs. I will even say the short path to being able to figure out steel is to work with samples of known steels and then if you need to figure out what a mystery steel is you will have some properties to compare it to. Some one who has only ground a few steels would think they were all very sparky. Some one who has only hardened and broke one steel would have little to compare it to. ETC ETC.

Jim
 
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That recipe is basically a starting point to see if the steel will work...I added a little extra to that post just a few minutes ago.I always figure that a newbie wont have a electric oven or pyrometer in the forge so I dont give specific heat temps for queching if that makes sense...I think the most valuable lesson I learned was reading somewhere years ago how Scagel heat treated his knives in the forge only even tempering in the forge,lord knows everybody likes a Scagel....

I will always try and help out when I can,since my illness I havent been here nuch as my head wasnt clear and I felt I may not give good enough advice.Heck seems I cant type well anymore either...

When I go to the shop now I almost feel like a newbi...
 
I guess I am in that 50-50 range....Using found steel sort of has this romantic apeal,I love the gleam in a old mans eye when you tell him this knife came from the load shaft of a tractor or the thrill and care taken of a knife a young man gets made rom one of Grandpas old tools,or like the knives I did years ago that were forged from a Harley Davidson kick stand.I still love to throw that odd file up on the anvile and make a frontier style knife as it is fun but I wouldnt throw that same file up to use as the blade for a high end Bowie or a skinner the customer wants high performance from,that is when you need a steel you know works and how to work it....See not everyones Excaliber is the same so I like to try and give them what they want..

This is why I dont say dont use scrap,but I do let them know they are in for a long lesson in metalurgy.The quickest and safest way to a quality knife is known steel but you can eventually get a good knifewith allot of experimenting and trying with forund steel,it does help to know what the steel came off of or what it is when asking for advice as just any old random piece of metal laying around the yard is usually a heart ach waiting to happen...

Here is a simple solution to the whole thing..
If a person asks for the best steel to buy and learn with give advice accordingly..

If they say they have a piece of mystery steel and you can tell they are set on using it,well explain a quick quench and temper and explain that this isnt always the best rout to takeand they will nedd more of the steel to experiment on and will have to do the testing themselves as others have done before..

If for some reason they cannot find known steel and can only use a saw blade or plowpoint then help out if you can or suggest a maker that can help them out and leave it at that then you dont get upset with them...

just my ramblings,
bruce
 
Bruce, I didn't mean to knock your personal approach as I believe you know what you are doing. I was tying to point out the traps and the point of the sparks in Kevin's example. I am sure you know about, correct temps and soak times. I think am just still stuck on when I thought non magnetic was the sweet spot and kind of go overboard whenever I hear that. I was at a local BS hammer in this spring and was surprised to find how many use that as their quench point. I hope thing improve for you and your health issues.
 
I don't know if this has been posted before, since the search function is closed to me, but I would think that something like this 'Metallurgy Made Simple' chart as a 'sticky' would be helpful to newbies and relieve the oldtimers of having to rehash every single metal question endlessly.
It isn't perfect or all-inclusive, but its certainly a good place to start.
http://goodwinrandd.com/CD Series I... Made Simple- Metal Identification Ready .pdf
 
I wasnt taking it as a knock....I was just trying to point out that with minumum equipment you have to have a starting point and that is about as simple a start as I know of.Learning sparks can take years of practice also...The newbi has to make up his or her mind as to the direction thy want to take.I like to suggest finding a good steel they can use and learn how to get the most out of it that is possiable then move on to learn the hardest part of knifemaking,the rest of the knife,fit and finish guards handle shapes and so on...

Heck if you want to make it simple on a newbi just tell them to get a stainless and send it to Paul to heat treat,now they have a knife that is heat treated properly,then they can consentrate on making a knife.I see somany squared off guards and handles and what looks like very un comfortable handles and poor designs that I want to scream and say hey look at the knives around and learn the rest of the knife not just the heat treatment.Sure that is what makes the knife a real knife but it takes years to become a master at the whole knife not just the heat treatment....

Before I get flamed here I know that without a proper heat treatment the blade isnt worth making....But trying to explain a proper handle or blade design and geometry is just as hard and flustrating to do but you hardly ever see a nebi ask how do I shape this or make this do that,Sure I see guys asking about their designs but it seems that allot dont know how to get things as they should be....

When going for a JS or MS has a test to see if you can heat treat your steel properly and how they want it,but then the hardest part is passing the judging where the WHOLE knife is judged...

Lets see,we all give thename of the steel when we advertise a kife but not out heat treting methods (most of the time) you can enter into judging and win awards without the heat treatment proccess,Customers look at the knife over all first and most sales are made or broke by fit finish and feel way before any steel discussion is started and most wont even ask that....The heat treatment is what the maker feels is a good holding edge and will do the job asked of the knife,if you have a poor holding edge you probably wont keep that customer,but you wouldnt get that customer without the whole package...

I guess what I am trying to say is if true metalurgy is your thing and you like knowing all the science in what and why great,me I am not that smart,I know what works for the steel I use and how to get the most from it I can without any complaints,I like to see the progression of the whole package,and see that newbi go from found steel to a true art piece with proper heatreat and all,it is a journey we all have taken and they must take it also,we can be only guides in this journey,but they have to pick the path they want to take....Some will take advise easily and others (like me ) can be stubborn and hard headed,but with patience and time it seems most turn in to really great knifemakers.

If the newbi wants to put the time nd effort into mastering that found steel and make a quality blade whats the difference,as long as at the end of that knifes journey they make a good serviceable knife that a person can be proud to own...

This debate is just like the one between forged versus stock removal,both work and we all are knifemakers in the end....so I say letthe newbipick the path and lets just guide them the best we can....

Sorry if I sound like I am just rambling,If I do then you will understand why I dont post much anymore as it is hard for me to get my thoughts out clearly.

Bruce
 
Tai Goo said:
I think we are just arguing over hypotheticals now.

This thread seems fairly balanced to me, some on one extreme some on the other, and quite a few balanced and in the middle. That’s all fine with me.

There are always going to be a few real steel snobs out there who think their "opinions" carry more weight than others. I'd just say,... if they come across that way, you don't have to listen to them...
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I believe one of the reasons is that some of the staunch proponents of 'known steel' making it known that they would never use anything else is that they sell knives for hundreds or even thousands of dollars and their buyers may peruse the forums. I'm sure they wouldn't want to infect their buyers mind with the idea that they may be getting an old leaf spring, regardless of the alloy content of the spring.

I actually think it may be a selling point at a show, have a section of your table set up with knives made from chevy, ford and dodge springs and you'll have guys arguing over which one is best.
 
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I don't know...while there's certainly a good number of "experienced" makers that make nice knives, by the same token there are also a good number of "experienced" (and well known) makers that make either A) the same old tired designs, and/or B) their own unattractive take on the same tired old designs (the thick bladed drop point 'hunters' being a prime example).

Simply put, "experience" doesn't necessarily equate to an attractive or well-balanced looking knife. Some people have a naturally good eye for balance and design, while others will never acquire that eye no matter how many knives they may make.
 
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