S110V at 59 Rc

[TriviaMonster]

I cannot justify the extra money for the Composite 560 either. I really like mine in ELMAX and it's been a very, very forgiving steel for my girlfriend to carry. I caught her cutting something on the bathroom marble counter and it didn't even chip a hair. And it stops back in a minute or so after tons of abuse. I am not sure I would enjoy a soft(?) 110V blade anymore. The ELMAX holds an edge like S30V, but seems about as tough, if not tougher than CPM154, and takes an edge like AUS-8. That may sound crazy, but it is tough stuff and has very, very fine grains. I am not sure that knife belongs in anything other than ELMAX.

And yes Rev, any of the super steels require a fairly intense heat treat to hit those 60+ numbers without having the backbone of a piece of glass. Peters Heat Treat is nowhere near the quality of Phil Wilson's, and even if they were both the exact same hardness, I am sure Phil's would outperform it due to the length and quality of the heat treat. This explains why Busse's "SR101" is much better than any other 52100 IMO.

But we aren't talking about any A11 stuff in the mid-60s or Maxamet in the low 70's, S90V is a fairly straight forward HT and Peter's has been around the block before.

 

[shqxk]

S110v, has more edge retention then 1095 at annealed state due to extreme alloy. So even if the zt was run soft @59 it should still perform well, but s110v is best suited @62.5-64 or even 65 in some cases.

Do you know there's a difference between "edge retention" and "wear resistance"?

Peters Heat Treat is nowhere near the quality of Phil Wilson's

Would you care to explain what is the difference in quality between them??

 

[sweet_hitch-hiker]

this probably shoudl be in another thread but what makes s110v so good at only 59rc? i mean i've seen m390 ran higher and m4 ran much higher. what makes s110v so much better at the same or lower hardness as other steels?

 

[ceptor781]

So does the composite construction of this knife mean we can't send the blade out for proper heat treat to a hrc more advantageous to this steel?

 

[Twindog]

this probably shoudl be in another thread but what makes s110v so good at only 59rc? i mean i've seen m390 ran higher and m4 ran much higher. what makes s110v so much better at the same or lower hardness as other steels?

Well, that's half of the question: How good is S110V at 59Rc? I presume it is very good, with high corrosion resistance and exceptionally good wear resistance. S110V is supposed to be S90V on steroids, but that advantage seems to be lost when S110V is run softer than S90V, although you still get superior corrosion resistance.

And even if the steel is a bit softer, the vanadium carbides are still about 82Rc. And S110V has other hard carbides, as well.

S110V can get harder than S90V and have quite a bit better wear resistance, but from what I can tell it's not an easy process to get these super steels into the hardness range that custom makers like Phil Wilson have tried (63Rc).

S110V is going to be difficult to beat for wear resistance and corrosion resistance without being brittle. Zero Tolerance put this as the cutting edge on a thick composite blade. If the main reason that ZT limited the hardness to 59Rc was because of limitations in the composite blade process, why not use a solid piece of S110V like the company used with the Shallot?

CPM M4 will be tougher, but it will lack the wear resistance and corrosion resistance. But it's difficult to find comparisons for S110V when it is run soft. The qualities that make S110V stand out are high hardness combined with a ton of hard carbides in a steel that is not too brittle and is highly corrosion resistant. It would be interesting to hear why ZT dropped the high hardness out of that winning combination.

 

[Twindog]

So does the composite construction of this knife mean we can't send the blade out for proper heat treat to a hrc more advantageous to this steel?

I think that is what it means, but I doubt that you'd want to. Rehardening a blade would trash the beautiful finish on this knife, and rehardening can be tricky.

I had a CPM M4 AFCK blade reharded from 59Rc to 64Rc by a very good knifemaker. It came back so brittle that under hand pressure it shattered into three pieces.

 

[Ankerson]

S110V isn't easy to run harder than the 62 RC range in a production knife...

Also the question of the composite blade and getting it heat treated to a higher RC, it's highly possible that it would blow out the grain of the other steel in the composite and ruin the blade so I wouldn't recommend it.

 

[dano]

I would be sad to spend that kind of money on a knife in S110V to have it at 59 hrc. Now I understand why Kershaw does it being as it is still a production and you have to account for the stupid people who will purchase the knife.

Thanks for the insult. Maybe you should take your metallurgical experience and apply for a job at Kai?

 

[ceptor781]

I figured bumping the hrc would be a no go. Any one know what Spyderco has as their target on the Native 110?

 

[gine]

Do you know there's a difference between "edge retention" and "wear resistance"?



Would you care to explain what is the difference in quality between them??

Yes, I know the difference. S110v is About 45 HRC annealed. Wear resistance is the "main" part of edge retention. That is why you see high vanadium steels ranked at the top of the lists. Hardness and toughness are important as well but don't expect a steel to hold an edge without carbides.

Phil's heat treat is legendary, due to custom built oven's with extremely accurate parameters and his constant attention and testing the whole way through.
Peters is a great HT company, and they due the best they can in the volume they work with.

 

[Kai Corp.]

Hitting that low on the hrc is a waste of good steel.

In your opinion. We think it performs well. Think we all know that unless it's max hardness for some here, it's simply a waste of good steel.

Well, that's half of the question: How good is S110V at 59Rc? I presume it is very good, with high corrosion resistance and exceptionally good wear resistance.

We're happy with it.

Thanks for the insult. Maybe you should take your metallurgical experience and apply for a job at Kai?

Don't feel there would be an opening for PK unfortunately. Just a hunch though.

I mean, do we even know KAI is pumping these out at 59?

Yes we do know.

 

[Ankerson]

I figured bumping the hrc would be a no go. Any one know what Spyderco has as their target on the Native 110?

Not confirmed, but I am guessing it will be in the 60-61 RC range or so, won't know for sure until they are out.

 

[Ankerson]

Yes, I know the difference. S110v is About 45 HRC annealed. Wear resistance is the "main" part of edge retention. That is why you see high vanadium steels ranked at the top of the lists. Hardness and toughness are important as well but don't expect a steel to hold an edge without carbides.

Phil's heat treat is legendary, due to custom built oven's with extremely accurate parameters and his constant attention and testing the whole way through.
Peters is a great HT company, and they due the best they can in the volume they work with.

Not to mention he does one or two blades at a time so he can really control what is going on and he is the master at his craft.

 

[Ankerson]

In your opinion. We think it performs well. Think we all know that unless it's max hardness for some here, it's simply a waste of good steel.

We're happy with it.

Don't feel there would be an opening for PK unfortunately. Just a hunch though.

Yes we do know.

59 in a composite production blade is really pretty good, I wouldn't expect much more than that if any.

 

[nccole]

Jim, you won't really be able to test that native will you? Maybe someone nice enough will loan you a 560 in S110V Composites are cool, but I prefer a solid steel ran as optimally as possible for a production run. I will be getting that Native, and who knows maybe never sharpen it.

 

[shqxk]

Yes, I know the difference. S110v is About 45 HRC annealed. Wear resistance is the "main" part of edge retention. That is why you see high vanadium steels ranked at the top of the lists. Hardness and toughness are important as well but don't expect a steel to hold an edge without carbides.

Phil's heat treat is legendary, due to custom built oven's with extremely accurate parameters and his constant attention and testing the whole way through.
Peters is a great HT company, and they due the best they can in the volume they work with.

No, wear resistance isn't the main part of edge retention, the hardness is. That's why lots of knife maker still using simple carbon steel.
FYI; HRC hardness is directly related to material tensile strengh.

Steel at anneal stated are in austenite form which is soft and will deform in normal circumstance no matter how much carbide it has...

Wear resistance will play a big role when you cut abrasive stuff like a cardboard, rope etc, otherwise, the hardness and toughness are the primary attribute for edge retention.

 

[Jason B.]

No, wear resistance isn't the main part of edge retention, the hardness is. That's why lots of knife maker still using simple carbon steel.
FYI; HRC hardness is directly related to material tensile strengh.

Steel at anneal stated are austenite form which is soft and will deform in normal circumstance no matter how much carbide it has...

Wear resistance will play a big role when you cut abrasion stuff like a cardboard, rope etc, otherwise, the hardness and toughness are the primary attribute for edge retention.

I watched 154cm out cut S125V all because of its hardness, even 1 HRC point makes a big difference.

 

[gine]

^^^^ Guy's there is a lot of variables here. What hardness compared to what steel a what hardness? I was referring to wear resistance not edge stability.

 

[Allen R.]

Even if ZT's s110v performs like s90v your still getting a beast of a knife, I mean really has anyone ever heard anyone complain that s90v didn't hold an edge well? Didn't think so, bottom line I believe Zt knows what they are doing, If anyone is disappointed with the performance of their s110v 560 please send it to me for proper disposal.

 

[NeverMore1701]

While 59 isn't bad, it still is a bit disappointing to have a super steel run so far below its optimum range, even knowing the reasons why. Still pretty enough that I'll keep it