S110V at 59 Rc

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I'm very nice, that whole emotion in text thing is hard to see.

Some of us would actually like truthful answers though....
 
Ethics? No. Customers questioning the reasoning behind a design, yes.
 
PatrickKnight said:
I may be wrong here but I believe you are right, that S90V at 61 will have better wear resistance than S110V at 59.

I think the reason they went with the composite is more the likely cost. Could you imagine how much a 560 with a pure S110V blade would cost, it would be wayyyyy up there.
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Do you really think so? I know its twice as much material but from what ive read a lot of the cost of using higher wear resistance materials like s110V isnt so much the cost of the actual blade steel but the cost of machining it and the wear it causes on tooling. It would seem that while the composite blade technology is impressive I cant for the life of me understand how it actually saves money. It seems like a lot of extra steps. And the intricate patterns they cut into the stuff to weld it together. And im not positive as I cant find an actual price that is dependable but I dont remember the S110V shallot being dramatically different in price from the standard shallot. It was more certainly but it wasnt astronomical in difference. I know kershaw has stated that the CB technology allows them to offer premiums steel at a lower price point by mixing it with lower grade but I wonder what the true offset in price is once you calculate the extra machining and bonding costs and all the headaches that can go into it. Ive always seen the CB process and a feat of engineering and an impressive data point rather than an actual economical way of manufacturing.
 
I suppose it's time for us to move along here.

We do the best we can with what we have knifenut1013. It doesn't always please everyone. Not everyone get's it every time. Our intentions are to please. Sorry it didn't work out for you and others with this one. We're quite pleased with the final pieces that are on the street.

Thanks for the conversation.
 
People like to argue about full potential of steels without thinking.
Most manufacturers balance toughness with ease of sharpening, for customer convenience.
If they ran the hardness up to 60+ rockwell, you'd all be complaining next that the knives fail because you cant easily sharpen them, they chip out or break and aren't malleable enough. You can't have it both ways.

Most manufacturers balance this quite well. Kai being among them.

The trolling in this thread will STOP, you know who you are.
 
Kai Corp. said:
Optimal range? I'm confused. What's optimal? Optimal for what?

Feeling that max hardness = optimal is certainly debatable, and we have debated this subject in many threads here. Max hardness is not the be all end all, When did this happen? You get a couple of steel experts in a thread, and sometimes reality goes out the window when talking mass production. Perspective goes a long way.

Just like with edge geometry, what is optimal? Is this 0560 edge geometry optimal here?

How bout the handle material, is CF optimal? Is that Ti frame optimal? How bout the blade length? Could go on and on.

You want to start talking optimal, I'll show you a thread with no end and a lot of hard feelings.
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You seem.......familiar.


;)












j/k............In all seriousness, I think people should probably use the knives before passing judgement. You may just be surprised.
 
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Karda said:
People like to argue about full potential of steels without thinking.
Most manufacturers balance toughness with ease of sharpening, for customer convenience.
If they ran the hardness up to 60+ rockwell, you'd all be complaining next that the knives fail because you cant easily sharpen them, they chip out or break and aren't malleable enough. You can't have it both ways.

Most manufacturers balance this quite well. Kai being among them.
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Of course, but there's usually a range in that balance. And the trend of today for knife nuts really seems to be pushing that hardness and wear resistance to the next level. I doubt you'd see too much complaining on the forums unless they were hardened to the point of chipping out at mundane tasks. For instance Spyderco is pretty well known for pushing the upper envelope of hardness on their steels compared to some other companies, most people buying these steels are aware of it and you don't get much complaining but instead a lot of praise. Of course, this doesn't mean it's the only right way, it's just a way that is currently favorable. You can also look at Chris Reeves knives. Not many bigger names in the knife industry and his s30v blades are known to be a couple points down from your typical Spyderco. Just different strokes, both are good, just different.

So, when you decide to use one of the hottest premium steels being talked about now at a hardness that *SEEMS TO BE* lower than optimal even for a production company, you'll have to expect some questioning. Once again, I can't stress that "seems to be" part enough as I doubt most of us talking about it really know.

I'm sure it still performs ridiculously well.

CrimsonTideShooter said:
j/k............In all seriousness, I think people should probably use the knives before passing judgement. You may just be surprised.
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there's a thought!
 
Karda said:
People like to argue about full potential of steels without thinking.
Most manufacturers balance toughness with ease of sharpening, for customer convenience.
If they ran the hardness up to 60+ rockwell, you'd all be complaining next that the knives fail because you cant easily sharpen them, they chip out or break and aren't malleable enough. You can't have it both ways.

Most manufacturers balance this quite well. Kai being among them.

The trolling in this thread will STOP, you know who you are.
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Thank you for letting this discussion continue.

I understand what you are saying about balance, but who buys these uber steel knives anyways? They mostly end up in the hands of enthusiasts, right? I figured even the plain 0560/1 model ended up mostly in the hands of people like us, let alone this supercharged model. I would assume these people would somewhat understand the limits of a high Hrc super steel like S110V. But you know what they say about assuming. This discussion does tell me one thing, though: They got it right the first time with ELMAX.

I will also add that my 0561 doesn't have an absurdly obtuse edge, it actually cuts pretty well and measures the same thickness behind the edge as my ZDP Delica after some careful thinning.
 
CrimsonTideShooter said:
You seem.......familiar.
;)
j/k............In all seriousness, I think people should probably use the knives before passing judgement. You may just be surprised.
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I had the same exact feeling reading the posts. Could it really be?

TriviaMonster said:
Thank you for letting this discussion continue.

I understand what you are saying about balance, but who buys these uber steel knives anyways? They mostly end up in the hands of enthusiasts, right? I figured even the plain 0560/1 model ended up mostly in the hands of people like us, let alone this supercharged model. I would assume these people would somewhat understand the limits of a high Hrc super steel like S110V. But you know what they say about assuming. This discussion does tell me one thing, though: They got it right the first time with ELMAX.

I will also add that my 0561 doesn't have an absurdly obtuse edge, it actually cuts pretty well and measures the same thickness behind the edge as my ZDP Delica after some careful thinning.
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I think the issue is that it tends to get frustrating when people speculate and judge based on technical data points that quite frankly even the average knife enthusiast doesn't fully understand. Don't get me wrong a few people in this thread do have an idea of what they are talking about but the subject is still subjective. Optimal for what exactly? When these people start discussing these issues people like me with less than optimal knowledge of the subject may start to devalue the knife when we don't have a full grasp of the concepts being debated. We just see "they didn't do it right". And I think it go's without saying that no matter what you read on paper it should be real world use of the product that determines its validity. Kershaw seems to come under scrutiny over their choices more than any other company it would seem. And It would appear they cant release a single product without the ever dreaded, "why did they do it that way when they could have done this?" argument. I can certainly understand some frustration. Because I doubt the vast majority of the people who sit and debate such things actually know more than the people responsible for manufacturing it. I could imagine that getting pretty grating with every product they decide to unveil. Almost like, "great, what are we going to have to defend this time around?"
 
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PURPLEDC said:
I had the same exact feeling reading the posts. Could it really be?
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As to this account, it's answers, and the information that come from it, are presented by committee. From our engineers, Tim Galyean, our other designers, to our long time industry professionals, we take input from all of our resources. The answers will come from of all us through one voice.
 
I do believe jimmer told us that If it was ran harder it would melt the brazing.
Take that with a gain of salt because I'm not entirely sure.
 
I have nothing but respect for Kai and the knives it produces, of which the 0560 is my favorite.

But with the 0560, we have a choice of two steels: Elmax and S110V composite. I've been using the Elmax for quite a while and love it. I reprofiled it to 30 degrees included and have had no problems with it in terms of chipping, rolling or excessive wear. It's a champ.

So now comes S110V. It's a natural question to wonder how the S110V at 59Rc compares to the Elmax I'm used to at 60-62Rc?

Between the two ZT 0560 steels, which will be better for:

1) Wear resistance
2) Easier to sharpen
3) Strength
4) Corrosion resistance

Honestly, I'd like to reprofile the S110V to 30 degrees inclusive, just like my ZT Elmax, but I don't know if the new steel is tough enough to hold a 30 degree edge, and I sure don't want to damage the edge and have to reprofile it back to 40 degrees (or the 38 degrees that it came with from the factory).

I mean this only as a simple, honest question that would occur to virtually any buyer of the new S110V blade?
 
Twindog said:
I have nothing but respect for Kai and the knives it produces, of which the 0560 is my favorite.

But with the 0560, we have a choice of two steels: Elmax and S110V composite. I've been using the Elmax for quite a while and love it. I reprofiled it to 30 degrees included and have had no problems with it in terms of chipping, rolling or excessive wear. It's a champ.

So now comes S110V. It's a natural question to wonder how the S110V at 59Rc compares to the Elmax I'm used to at 60-62Rc?

Between the two ZT 0560 steels, which will be better for:


1) Wear resistance
2) Easier to sharpen
3) Strength
4) Corrosion resistance

Honestly, I'd like to reprofile the S110V to 30 degrees inclusive, just like my ZT Elmax, but I don't know if the new steel is tough enough to hold a 30 degree edge, and I sure don't want to damage the edge and have to reprofile it back to 40 degrees (or the 38 degrees that it came with from the factory).

I mean this only as a simple, honest question that would occur to virtually any buyer of the new S110V blade?
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Answers:

1) Wear resistance - S110V
2) Easier to sharpen - ELMAX
3) Strength - About the same
4) Corrosion resistance - S110V
 
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Kai Corp. said:
As to this account, it's answers, and the information that come from it, are presented by committee. From our engineers, Tim Galyean, our other designers, to our long time industry professionals, we take input from all of our resources. The answers will come from of all us through one voice.
Click to expand...

We don't know who it is guys. My comment was just meant as a little humor. We will never know who is the one behind the keyboard on this name.

As long as we get good info it doesn't matter who it is. :)
 
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