S110V at 59 Rc

[Kai Corp.]

While 59 isn't bad, it still is a bit disappointing to have a super steel run so far below its optimum range,

Optimal range? I'm confused. What's optimal? Optimal for what?

Feeling that max hardness = optimal is certainly debatable, and we have debated this subject in many threads here. Max hardness is not the be all end all, When did this happen? You get a couple of steel experts in a thread, and sometimes reality goes out the window when talking mass production. Perspective goes a long way.

Just like with edge geometry, what is optimal? Is this 0560 edge geometry optimal here?

How bout the handle material, is CF optimal? Is that Ti frame optimal? How bout the blade length? Could go on and on.

You want to start talking optimal, I'll show you a thread with no end and a lot of hard feelings.

 

[shqxk]

Just too much delusion around that superduper steel must only be the one which has very high carbide at maximum hardness

 

[Kai Corp.]

It is of my opinion that edge retention doesn't have to be/shouldn't be, the baseline from which all blades are judged from. It that was the case, there are very few knives, both custom and handmade that would be considered 'optimal".

This type of thread makes little sense to me.

 

[NeverMore1701]

Optimal range? I'm confused. What's optimal? Optimal for what?

Feeling that max hardness = optimal is certainly debatable, and we have debated this subject in many threads here. Max hardness is not the be all end all, When did this happen? You get a couple of steel experts in a thread, and sometimes reality goes out the window when talking mass production. Perspective goes a long way.

Just like with edge geometry, what is optimal? Is this 0560 edge geometry optimal here?

How bout the handle material, is CF optimal? Is that Ti frame optimal? How bout the blade length? Could go on and on.

You want to start talking optimal, I'll show you a thread with no end and a lot of hard feelings.

I've seen plenty of threads and I'm not trying to be argumentative. Running S110V at 59 just isn't taking advantage of its full potential. Like I said, I understand why, and the 0560CBCF is still a fine knife the I'm very happy to own, it would just be nice if the edge was able to be run in the 63ish range.

 

[Jason B.]

It is of my opinion that edge retention doesn't have to be/shouldn't be, the baseline from which all blades are judged from. It that was the case, there are very few knives, both custom and handmade that would be considered 'optimal".

This type of thread makes little sense to me.

So edge retention of a cutting tool is of little importance?

 

[Twindog]

It is of my opinion that edge retention doesn't have to be/shouldn't be, the baseline from which all blades are judged from. It that was the case, there are very few knives, both custom and handmade that would be considered 'optimal".

This type of thread makes little sense to me.

The ZT 0560CBCF is an incredible knife. Kai gets my respect for making a knife with such top-tier materials and amazing fit and finish. And thank you for caring enough to comment on a Sunday of a holiday weekend.

The thread is about why Kai chose to run S110V -- a steel whose primary advantage is exceptional wear resistance at higher hardness levels 3 to 4 points higher than 59Rc. For example, my understanding is that you could have gotten greater wear resistance at a cheaper price with an S90V blade at 60Rc, which at least one other manufacturer has done.

My sense is that mass production would make higher hardness levels difficult or impossible to achieve, especially with a composite blade.

I'd love to hear how Kai would rank S110V at 59Rc in the 0560 blade geometry, in terms of toughness, wear resistance, and edge retention, to other steels that you use.

 

[Szilard]

Optimal can be better defined if you know the type of use. High hardness slicers as a niche market exists in the form of chefs knives. A lot of home-user marketed knives run too low on HRC and are a big pain to people who spend their whole day cutting and have to regularly sharpen. Many of the pro's I've talked to still seem to favor a 62-63 HRC because they find that they can chip out, or too majorly chip out (killing lifespan on expensive tools) the higher hardness blades.

You of course know this, just like you know Kai thinks edge retention is important. Just to provide an opinion of counterpoint - I like "supersteels" even if they run a little softer sometimes because I get some advantages in edge retention from the superior material, but can still sharpen the knives to the level of sharpness that I want. I also like completely "basic" steels that I can sharpen incredibly easily. Unfortunately I don't have personal experience with S110V or S90V so I can't speak to this exact situation - I find that my probably fairly soft M390 PM2 and BM581/710 has probably some of the best edge retention I've dealt with and I've never chipped it and can still sharpen it. I wouldn't mind if they got harder as long as they weren't brittle, but I'd probably carry the knives less if that increase caused the knives to really become a hassle to touch up.

Variety is the spice of life, YMMV, etc. Running it at 59 was probably - and I can only speculate, Kai can actually weigh in - an attempt at a balanced medium meant for more mass appeal. Which works for this user.

 

[Ankerson]

Jim, you won't really be able to test that native will you? Maybe someone nice enough will loan you a 560 in S110V Composites are cool, but I prefer a solid steel ran as optimally as possible for a production run. I will be getting that Native, and who knows maybe never sharpen it.

I heard they are pretty thick behind the edge... In the .030" range...

 

[HuntBomb]

If you're gonna go...why not go all out?
The whole attraction of super steel is knowing it has capabilities beyond other steels, so why not take it to its greatest potential?

 

[-Lucky-]

The ZT 0560CBCF is an incredible knife. Kai gets my respect for making a knife with such top-tier materials and amazing fit and finish. And thank you for caring enough to comment on a Sunday of a holiday weekend.

The thread is about why Kai chose to run S110V -- a steel whose primary advantage is exceptional wear resistance at higher hardness levels 3 to 4 points higher than 59Rc. For example, my understanding is that you could have gotten greater wear resistance at a cheaper price with an S90V blade at 60Rc, which at least one other manufacturer has done.

My sense is that mass production would make higher hardness levels difficult or impossible to achieve, especially with a composite blade.

I'd love to hear how Kai would rank S110V at 59Rc in the 0560 blade geometry, in terms of toughness, wear resistance, and edge retention, to other steels that you use.

I just want to bump this post by Twindog because I think it is very well written and raises great points.

 

[Ankerson]

Optimal range? I'm confused. What's optimal? Optimal for what?

Feeling that max hardness = optimal is certainly debatable, and we have debated this subject in many threads here. Max hardness is not the be all end all, When did this happen? You get a couple of steel experts in a thread, and sometimes reality goes out the window when talking mass production. Perspective goes a long way.

Just like with edge geometry, what is optimal? Is this 0560 edge geometry optimal here?

How bout the handle material, is CF optimal? Is that Ti frame optimal? How bout the blade length? Could go on and on.

You want to start talking optimal, I'll show you a thread with no end and a lot of hard feelings.

I think on has to look at the knife and the intended use for the knife....

It's not like it's a thin slicer, rather a general purpose knife that should be able to handle harder cutting tasks so it get the most out of it the blade would have to be reground defeating the intended purpose of the blade IMO.

The knife is fine as it is IMO for the design.

Nobody is going to get 63+ in an S110V production run so that would be a mute point anyway so I say people should enjoy the knife for what it is.

 

[Ankerson]

If you're gonna go...why not go all out?
The whole attraction of super steel is knowing it has capabilities beyond other steels, so why not take it to its greatest potential?

Because it can't be done in a production run unless they have an aerospace level furnace.....

 

[TriviaMonster]

Would you care to explain what is the difference in quality between them??

Phil Wilson is a pioneer of many of the steels we call super these days. He's been HT'ing these steels long before others even knew about them. He does tiny batches with some of the most precise equipment and has the knowledge to back it up. Sal has consulted with Phil even. He is the King of super steels and thin grinds and is already a legend in that area. He was making high tech razor blades in an era of pointy sticks. Even Crucible has learned from his HT experiences. That about cover it?

 

[Ankerson]

Phil Wilson is a pioneer of many of the steels we call super these days. He's been HT'ing these steels long before others even knew about them. He does tiny batches with some of the most precise equipment and has the knowledge to back it up. Sal has consulted with Phil even. He is the King of super steels and thin grinds and is already a legend in that area. He was making high tech razor blades in an era of pointy sticks. Even Crucible has learned from his HT experiences. That about cover it?

Phil pushes the steels right to the edge getting the max performance out of them that is possible, but would be the 1st to tell you what his knives are made to do, that is cut stuff.

He tests the blades a number of times during the ht process to make sure he is getting what he wants, and he can do that working with one or two blades at a time with the equipment he has. With that equipment that's extremely accurate and his vast knowledge of the steels he can get exactly what he wants.

One really can't compare his work to a production knife and be fair about it, it's two completely different worlds and I will tell anyone that because I know 1st hand what the difference is and it is HUGE. :thumbup:

I have to keep reminding myself of that and to be fair to the production companies, and when I forget Phil reminds me slapping me back down to reality, wire brushing me so to speak so I remember.

Phil has done a lot of consulting over the years because he is the pioneer for the PM steels in using them in knife blades.

 

[Kai Corp.]

So edge retention of a cutting tool is of little importance?

You forgot your smiley face.

My sense is that mass production would make higher hardness levels difficult or impossible to achieve, especially with a composite blade.

You have good sense.

The thread is about why Kai chose to run S110V --

Throw in with a little, the customers who buy this knife are lame, and questioning the manufacturers ethics.

I think on has to look at the knife and the intended use for the knife....

It's not like it's a thin slicer, rather a general purpose knife that should be able to handle harder cutting tasks so it get the most out of it the blade would have to be reground defeating the intended purpose of the blade IMO.

The knife is fine as it is IMO for the design.

Nobody is going to get 63+ in an S110V production run so that would be a mute point anyway so I say people should enjoy the knife for what it is.

+1 It is indeed fine as is.

One really can't compare his work to a production knife and be fair about it, it's two completely different worlds and I will tell anyone that because I know 1st hand what the difference is and it is HUGE. :thumbup:

I have to keep reminding myself of that and to be fair to the production companies, and when I forget Phil reminds me slapping me back down to reality, wire brushing me so to speak so I remember.

Another +1

 

[goodeyesniper]

First off, Kershaw is one of my top respected knife producers, and I'm not personally questioning this move, but I'm going to give some reasons why I think it's understandable that some people do.

the ZT line isn't generally pushed as a "slicer" type of knife, so it makes sense they might bump a point or two of potential hardness in order for a little more durability. No problems there.

I think it could be comparatively said that using s110v in a knife like this at 59hrc is more using the name than the actual performance of the steel. Like someone putting a massively detuned corvette motor into another car and then marketing it as having the corvette motor. *I really can not stress enough that I have no experiences with this steel, so I'm not actually assuming s110v at 59 is a poor performer* We all know hardness is a huge factor in a steel showing what it can do, and we all know production knives can't hit the peak that customs can, so at first glance it seems reasonable to question this move. Could you maybe throw another steel that isn't as *hot* and new on there, which would offer the same performance for less price, but they didn't because they wanted "s110v" on the blade? That's why I think this thread was actually good. People got to voice their concerns, some politely and others less politely, and we heard some solid feedback given.

Once again, i bow to Ankerson's knowledge, and Kai's reputation. They both give it the Okay, and that's more than I need to feel satisfied that it should be pretty good. But we also know that every once in awhile, production knives get a less than optimal HT. (Spyderco's too hard ZDP mules, early BM CPM M4 being too soft, etc...) and these are usually fixed after some talk about them.

 

[TriviaMonster]

I have another question actually. At what point does hardness overcome alloy content. Let's say we have 2 knives (same model and all, same edge thickness...etc), one is S90V at around 61, and the other is 110V at around 59. According to Crucible charts, S90V is tougher than 110V, but no hardness numbers are given. If our 110V has less wear resistance than our S90V at my given Rockwell's, and its potentially less tough at those numbers, is there a benefit in choosing 110V over S90V?

This is making a lot of assumptions as far as toughness and wear resistance of course. Is this possible even? This may be way off, but I'm curious to hear some thoughts about this.

 

[stabman]

"They didn't run it hard enough, and now I have to sharpen it. "

"They ran it too hard, and now it chipped! The bastards!!! "

You cannot win when the public is involved.

 

[Fanglekai]

You forgot your smiley face.


Throw in with a little, the customers who buy this knife are lame, and questioning the manufacturers ethics.

Questioning ethics? I see people questioning the chosen heat treatment, not ethics. There's no need to be defensive about it. If the answer is as simple as "running it harder won't work with the composite blade" or "that heat treatment protocol is far more involved and would have added significant cost" or "we were looking for a balance of toughness and edge retention", then I think people would say ok cool it's answered and then move along. Obviously someone in the company chose to run the s110v at 59 HRC and they had a reason for it. The question is why run it at 59 HRC? I imagine the answer is very straightforward.

 

[Jason B.]

Questioning ethics? I see people questioning the chosen heat treatment, not ethics. There's no need to be defensive about it. If the answer is as simple as "running it harder won't work with the composite blade" or "that heat treatment protocol is far more involved and would have added significant cost" or "we were looking for a balance of toughness and edge retention", then I think people would say ok cool it's answered and then move along. Obviously someone in the company chose to run the s110v at 59 HRC and they had a reason for it. The question is why run it at 59 HRC? I imagine the answer is very straightforward.

Knives are for looking pretty, you didn't know?