S30V vs M390 Toughness?

SOOOO true, congrats on the super mod revdevil I know im late but better late than never ha..
RevDevil said:
Sometimes in our quest for knowledge, it becomes easy to overlook the most basic and obvious things.
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Thanks :)
Coincidentaly, it took me a bit to figure out that CPM-154CM wasn't an actual steel but a typo. :eek:
 
Now that's funny lol all you need is to change your name color back to red (I know im late on this as well). Blue just isn't the same... I'm not sure how many months i lurked thinking your name was reddevil lol then one day i looked at one of your posts and was like huh REVdevil.. and thought to myself has it always been that lol
RevDevil said:
Thanks :)
Coincidentaly, it took me a bit to figure out that CPM-154CM wasn't an actual steel but a typo. :eek:
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Ankerson , I did some digging and found this thread http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/384825-Chris-Reeve-Green-Beret/page5 in post 84 Dick barber the metallurgist at crucible who made S30V talks about about who he worked with and what the goal was.... in post 91 Dick barber talks about the how S30v was specifically made for knives.... hope this helps.. it doesnt get any closer to the source than Dick barber.
 
I copied post 91 here it is

In response to the question about comparison of S90V and S30V. They are very different alloys. S90v was developed as a highly wear resistant material for plastic injection molding equipment. As such ease of use and Heat treatment temperatures were not considered important. We used comments on S90V to make an improved steel for knives. S90V is a superior steel for what it was designed for (plastic injection molding equipment) S30V is a superior steel for what it was designed for (Knives).


Very informative info post 84 in the thread is longer and goes more in depth about when Dick Barber was creating S30V..
 
shinyedges said:
Ankerson , I did some digging and found this thread http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/384825-Chris-Reeve-Green-Beret/page5 in post 84 Dick barber the metallurgist at crucible who made S30V talks about about who he worked with and what the goal was.... in post 91 Dick barber talks about the how S30v was specifically made for knives.... hope this helps.. it doesnt get any closer to the source than Dick barber.
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Yeah, we all read that too back in 2006.... ;)
 
Cool, I just wanted to clear up your "not,exactly" answer... Dick barber clearly states it was indeed a knife steel from conception. So ther shouldn't be any doubt as to what S30v was specifically intended for....
Ankerson said:
Yeah, we all read that too back in 2006.... ;)
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shinyedges said:
Cool, I just wanted to clear up your "not,exactly" answer... Dick barber clearly states it was indeed a knife steel from conception. So ther shouldn't be any doubt as to what S30v was specifically intended for....
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It's still not exactly.... As in the information is there, but not all of it........

Like I said we all read that too back in 2006..... ;)


Basically there was this steel in development (not named yet) that Crucible had......

The problem was like the other steels like S60V and S90V it still had too much Vanadium in it..... More than Chris Reeve wanted to deal with in production because of the wear on the machine parts.

So after a lot of R&D the steel that ended up being S30V had 4% Vanadium and the other elements were tweaked until they had a good formula that worked...

Chris Reeve gets the credit because he was the one who hung it all out there being the 1st to use it in production knives...

But the real bottom line here is that the steel companies aren't going to make a steel that isn't also useful in other parts of the industry being that the knife industry is only 10%.......

So in the end S30V had to be useful in the other parts of the industry AND be a good knife steel at the same time........

Yes, they say it was developed to be a knife steel, but that's not all of it... That's just how it was marketed to the knife industry.....

EDITED TO ADD....

All of this back in a time when the steel companies really didn't care that much about the knife industry......

That has slowly changed over the years and the Steel companies are finally starting to take the knife industry more seriously now.... We can thank Spyderco, Benchmade and KAI for that as they keep pushing.....
 
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There's only one solution to this debate fellow knife nutty's. By this weekend you are to go out and order knives in either or both of these steels if you are absent them and see for yourself! ☺
 
With all due respect ankerson, Dick barber (the metallurgist at crucible who created s30v) specifically stated what s30v was designed for... knife steel. He didn't leave any room for doubt he was very clear in his post... you can believe what ever you like but facts are facts I've researched and provided direct evidence that s30v was created as knife steel... not injection plastic parts or nuts or washers... KNIFE STEEL. While s30v might have uses outside of knives the fact is Dick barber put this to rest... you have provided zero evidence of you opinion.... I email crucible and it wasn't enough for you.... Phil wilsons information confirms it but its still not enough for you.... Dick barber created the steel and clearly States what it was created for... still not enough for you... you don't back your opinion up with anything and the facts are clear.
Ankerson said:
It's still not exactly.... As in the information is there, but not all of it........

Like I said we all read that too back in 2006..... ;)


Basically there was this steel in development (not named yet) that Crucible had......

The problem was like the other steels like S60V and S90V it still had too much Vanadium in it..... More than Chris Reeve wanted to deal with in production because of the wear on the machine parts.

So after a lot of R&D the steel that ended up being S30V had 4% Vanadium and the other elements were tweaked until they had a good formula that worked...

Chris Reeve gets the credit because he was the one who hung it all out there being the 1st to use it in production knives...

But the real bottom line here is that the steel companies aren't going to make a steel that isn't also useful in other parts of the industry being that the knife industry is only 10%.......

So in the end S30V had to be useful in the other parts of the industry AND be a good knife steel at the same time........

Yes, they say it was developed to be a knife steel, but that's not all of it... That's just how it was marketed to the knife industry.....
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shinyedges said:
With all due respect ankerson, Dick barber (the metallurgist at crucible who created s30v) specifically stated what s30v was designed for... knife steel. He didn't leave any room for doubt he was very clear in his post... you can believe what ever you like but facts are facts I've researched and provided direct evidence that s30v was created as knife steel... not injection plastic parts or nuts or washers... KNIFE STEEL. While s30v might have uses outside of knives the fact is Dick barber put this to rest... you have provided zero evidence of you opinion.... I email crucible and it wasn't enough for you.... Phil wilsons information confirms it but its still not enough for you.... Dick barber created the steel and clearly States what it was created for... still not enough for you... you don't back your opinion up with anything and the facts are clear.
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I told you who to talk with..... If you really want to know.....

Anyway read my edit from the last post.....
 
I read the edit. I will try and get a conversation with Mr.reeves just for the sake of complete and thorough information... but chris reeve was only one of many makers Dick barber spoke with and worked with while creating s30v.. chris reeve didn't make s30v Dick barber did and he is very clear on what s30v was created for...
Ankerson said:
I told you who to talk with..... If you really want to know.....

Anyway read my edit from the last post.....
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shinyedges said:
I read the edit. I will try and get a conversation with Mr.reeves just for the sake of complete and thorough information... but chris reeve was only one of many makers Dick barber spoke with and worked with while creating s30v.. chris reeve didn't make s30v Dick barber did and he is very clear on what s30v was created for...
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You really are clueless...... :rolleyes:

I am done.....
 
Up until now I have be somewhat reluctant to post any discussions on forums such as this. I am Dick Barber and I developed S30V while at Crucible. The development of this material was carefully considered and took many thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours of research and development time. Prior to embarking on this project I personally consulted many people in the knife industry to learn what they liked and did not like about the materials currently available in the market place. In addition to working closely with Chris I also consulted makers like Sal Glesser, Ernie Emersion, Tony Marfione, Phil Wilson, Bill Harsey, Mike Jones, Steve Ingrim, Tom Mayo, Jerry Hossom and Paul Bos. I also met with hundreds of users at various knife shows on both coasts. The general consensus was as follows. The current top dog in the stainless knife world was BG42 and they wanted something that was more corrosion resistant, tougher and better edge retention than BG42. We used this as our benchmark as well as 154CM (BG 42 without the V additon) and 440C.


For me this is extremely clear... the Man created the steel and these are his words...



S90V is a superior steel for what it was designed for (plastic injection molding equipment) S30V is a superior steel for what it was designed for (Knives).
 
Say what you like, you have provided ZERO evidence and you disagree with Dick barber , crucible , Phil Wilson... whether you like it or not your wrong and can't and don't have a leg to stand on... anyway no need to be rude facts are clear.
Ankerson said:
You really are clueless...... :rolleyes:

I am done.....
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Why i see no reason they would no forum rules were broken...


The conversation with ankerson related to the topic because he said that crucibles data sheets dont have anything to do with knives because the steel wasnt created specifically for knives.. When in fact s30v was created specifically for knives... i provided evidence from the manufacturer, the creator of the steel Dick barber, and one of the prominent knife makers (phil wilson) that Dick barber consulted with while creating S30v. Therefore ankersons statement that the data sheet has nothing to do with knives because it wasnt created for knife steel is incorrect. I believe it directly related to the OP question.... Not to mention What dick barber had to say about s30v is good info for the original poster... have any input?
bluemetalchurch said:
Can a mod close this?
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When S30V came out, it was touted as being a steel -- the first steel, I think -- that was developed for the knife industry. The "industry" is a key adjective because there were compromises made so that knives could be ground and heat treated in a high-production setting.

But that is a minor issue because what counts is how a steel performs. And what is sad is that we don't have good measures for comparing different steels because testing methods, production methods, final geometry, heat treating, etc., are all different. Which is tougher, M390 or S30V? We don't really know because 1) We don't have access to standardized testing methods, and 2) heat treats make a huge difference. Geometry makes a difference, too.

In another thread, I mentioned a section of an Ed Fowler book where he describes a very complicated process of heat treating 52100E, a steel used for ball bearings but one that works extremely well for knives. In a heat process that took many, many days, a blade was created that cut 300 percent better than ordinarily heat treated 52100 and was so tough that it was bent 180 degrees more than six times before it broke. So is 52100 tougher than 3V? Well that knife is tougher than any 3V knife I have. One of my 3V bowies that I got from a custom maker bent permanently under a test that Benchmade puts its S30V bush knife to. The problem I had wasn't with the steel, but with a crappy heat treat.

The comparographs floating around are super easy to read and very interesting, but they are notoriously inaccurate and contradictory. Crucible even has a comparograph out that shows S35VN is tougher than 3V. Few would agree.

So we go with what we know in trying to answer the question. Ankerson's tests of wear resistance are very well done, but testing for toughness is more challenging and more expensive. And heat treat is really key. I've had S30V from major makers that was chippy. And I have S30V now from those same makers that is not chippy at all. Chipping is an indication of poor toughness. I also have an S30V knife from Crusador Forge that is super heat treated and it acts like it is much tougher than ordinary S30V.

I think both these steels are excellent. And I'd guess that heat treat will determine which is tougher. But we almost never know anything about the heat treat of our knives.
 
One more try (not sure it matters, but here it is anyway)...
The history is historically interesting. The data sheets are useful in narrowly defined way. Both are really BESIDE THE POINT, so there is no real value in a pissing contest.

The real point is that none of that answers the original question, or my question on another thread, or anyone else who wants to know what knife will have what properties (such as "toughness"). What WILL answer this sort of question is an actual test of actual knives subject to the forces that the tester is interested in testing (Nate the machinist's videos come to mind, 3V and Elmax compared - yes it was limited but at least it was real knives).

So all these pages and all this superfluous information and angst, and still no answer... :eek:
 
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