s30v

[Jerry Hossom]

Possum, to have had such unfortunate experiences with steels you might be screwing up the edge when you sharpen your knives, though you didn't say what you were chopping with your folder (curious task for a folder btw). Saying you broke an ATS-34 chopper is pretty meaningless, taken by itself. That you "used it on a big chopper" suggests it was a knife you made yourself. Is that correct?

ANY steel can be screwed up if not used properly. You really don't have to work hard to intentionally ruin a knife, and it's even easier if the knife is poorly made - regardless of the steel used.

As for steel company data sheets, from the Crucible data sheet on S30V.

Although the longitudinal toughness for all three of these grades
is about 25-28 ft. lbs., the transverse toughness of CPM S30V is
four times greater than that of 440C or 154CM. These higher
transverse toughness results indicate that CPM S30V is much
more resistant to chipping and breaking in applications which
may encounter side loading. In knifemaking, its higher transverse
toughness makes CPM S30V especially good for bigger blades.

Longitudinal toughness of A2 is ~40 ft. lbs. but the transverse toughness is ~8-10 ft. lbs. Transverse toughness of S30V is 10 ft/ lbs. whle 154CM and 440C are ~2.5 ft. lbs.

As far as I'm concerned though, those numbers are meaningless. The only thing that matters to me is how the steel performs in a knife blade. In my experience and the experience of many other knifemakers who hate this steel just as much as I do, it rocks.

And btw, I consider chopping 8d nails to be near the acceptable limit of what you should do with a knife. Beyond that you're in a domain where the resulting damage will likely exceed what you can easily sharpen out.

Stainz, in my experience a strop is a more reliable means of polishing an edge. Polishing with a buff will usually remove the edge itself while it's being polished unless you have a lot of experience and the edge is nearly polished before you start. A little 1 x 30" belt sander with a leather belt is possibly a knife sharpener's most precious tool.

 

[the possum]

As far as I'm concerned though, those numbers are meaningless. The only thing that matters to me is how the steel performs in a knife blade. In my experience and the experience of many other knifemakers who hate this steel just as much as I do, it rocks.

Having never seriously used a big blade in this steel, I will with hold final judgement. However, all those numbers, combined with my past experience, make me pretty darn pessimistic. Why would I want to try it when other proven steels offer even better edge integrity under impacts with hard targets?

Saying you broke an ATS-34 chopper is pretty meaningless, taken by itself. That you "used it on a big chopper" suggests it was a knife you made yourself. Is that correct?

Yes, it is, and I did make it myself. Lots of "curious" things happen when I'm using my knives. I can of course provide details if you'd like, if you want to drift the thread a bit.

Now then, as to this:

And btw, I consider chopping 8d nails to be near the acceptable limit of what you should do with a knife. Beyond that you're in a domain where the resulting damage will likely exceed what you can easily sharpen out.

I'd also consider this statement "pretty meaningless, taken by itself." I just grabbed an old Parker stockman I keep for backup in my desk drawer out to the shop. It's stamped Surgical Stainless, and the edge is well under .03". I grabbed what I was told was an 8 penny nail (it was 3 3/4" long & about 4 1/2mm in diameter), laid it across the back of the vise, and pounded the knife through with a hammer. The edge was barely rolled enough to reflect light; I could fix it with one pass per side on a diamond hone. It certainly took far less damage than either of the knives in your photos. So how can we draw any conclusions from this? Is cheapo surgical stainless even better than S30V?

Look, I ain't trying to poo-poo on the steel here. But it seems very easy to sit back and play devil's advocate when folks are extolling the virtues- toughness, no less- of yet another high carbide stainless & comparing it to very tough tool steels. It will take much more than what I've seen so far to convince me.

 

[Jerry Hossom]

Now there you have me. I'd invite everyone and anyone here with a stainless folder to chop an 8d nail in half and tell us what happens.

Here's what happened to Rc55 1095 that failed to cut the nail.

 

[Bladeandbarrel]

S30V is the toughest STAINLESS steel I have used. It resists tip breaking, edge chipping and serration rolling quite well. When testing a Spyderco Small Manix, I performed 50 full-power tip first thrusts into a brick wall and didn't damage the tip to any meaningful degree. A fine India cleaned it up in 30 seconds.

My full power strikes were pretty solid. Last time I checked I can still bench press 300#......Great steel for folding knife applications, IMO.

 

[the possum]

Jerry-
From the looks of things, that blade seems to have a nice & thin edge for good cutting. What are the dimensions & angles involved? I'm gonna go out on a limb here (from memory) and say that 1060 at 57 Rc or so would make a lot more sense to me than 1095 at 55 Rc.

The "design" goals of S30V were "a stainless tool steel as tough as A2 and as wear resistant as D2".

Ya know, sometimes things just breeze right over my head. If this was the goal, then why keep bringing up 3V when toughness is being discussed? If you want to compare transverse toughness, then perhaps it would be best to say so. I don't think of transverse toughness when a blade breaks off from edge to spine.

simple: it's a matter of economics and ignorance.

So, one steel that you seem to like must be good, because lots of people use it. When lots more people use a steel you don't like, it's simply ignorance. Where's the objectivity here? I freely admit I have my biases, and participate in these discussions to see if I need to modify them. But try to acknowlege my prejudices all the same.

ANY steel can be screwed up if not used properly. You really don't have to work hard to intentionally ruin a knife, and it's even easier if the knife is poorly made - regardless of the steel used.

For the record, I agree completely. Now then, did this have anything to do with the conversation here?

 

[Daniel Koster]

economics: cheap knives are easier to obtain, easier/cheaper to make. that equates to greater supply.


ignorance: cheap knifes require little "understanding" regarding materials. Again, generally speaking...the more educated a knife buyer becomes regarding materials...the more likely they are to invest in quality.



My response was to your comment that more folks carry cheap knives than expensive ones. And I would agree. But I would also add that they are (generally speaking) driven by economics (the knife is cheap and easily obtained) and ignorance (they do not understand the importance of quality materials).


There was a time when I was the same. I've become educated now (and am still learning)...and understand the importance of good materials. Therefore, I refuse to buy cheap knives...it's worth it to me to buy quality.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

And why does it sell?

So if something sells in large numbers it is a sign of quality? There are fads and miconceptions that knifemakers exploit.

What good is "toughness" if the steel is so weak the edge rolls as soon as it hits anything hard? When carbon/carbide content is too low, as it is with 12C27M, the steel no longer possesses sufficient strength to resist heavy loads/impacts.

This is the exact opposite of actual measured fact. Once again you are spreading misinformation. If you actually want FACTS then reference Landes work where he actually MEASURES the effect you noted and determines by machine measurement than 12C27M is SUPERIOR to steels such as 154CM in that regard.

I think I can safely say that if anyone in the industry thought 12C27 would have sufficed, nobody would have bothered with S30V. Are these lesser steels useful?

They are not lesser steels, by the same arguement all of the ABS guys using steels like 1084 are using inferior or lesser steels. This is 100% nonsense.

I'd like to hear if you've seen L6 suffer from strength issues at 58 Rc or so.

Alvin Johnston has done strength tests on L6 and noted that it is among the hardest steels to break by direct bending. L6 was also the steel chosen by many knifemakers on the knife-list for the steel they would use for their own knives.


-Cliff

 

[the possum]

Dan, I didn't address the economics issue for a couple reasons. This thread seemed to focus more on the toughness inherent in a given steel. (S30V) The price of a bar of steel is no indicator of its toughness. There are lots of "cheap" knives made from steels that should easily be tougher than S30V. There are plenty of expensive knives handmade from S30V, and there are plenty of expensive knives hand made from steels that are cheaper and much tougher at the same time.

My whole point is that popularity does not always equal superior performance or quality. Witness the comments posted earlier by Stainz- "While I don't hunt, and my knives do get little use, it developed the 'keeper' title here almost immediately..." Heck, just look at the "music" put out by the most popular artists on the pop charts. :grumpy:

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Cutting a nail is very sensitive to technique than the steel. I have cut 3.5" nails in half with a hammer and very thin knives, I mean 10-15 degrees per side, 0.005-0.010" thick edges. All you have to do is keep the force in terms of compression. Once it becomes lateral any steel will fold almost immediately.

-Cliff

 

[the possum]

Cutting a nail is very sensitive to technique than the steel.

I know. That was my whole point. Along with a whole bunch of other implications I don't feel like typing right now.

 

[JCaswell]

I REALLY hate to plug these guys again, but this:



http://www.knifetests.com/page7.html



Does not look like a "brittle," inferior or even mediocre steel to me!



BTW, There's a strange synergy in watching these guys "test" an S30V Strider knife, considering the two non-political topics that generate the most heat on BF seem to be "Strider" and "S30V."

 

[SamuraiDave]

I have read most of this post and all I know is that I have been in the middle of grinding a bunch of large knives from S30V as well as laying out some knives in some L6 I have laying around. I make knives when I have time and although I always have a dozen in the works it typically takes me a year or so to finish one. This is mainly because I never make 2 of the same type and that I don't have much spare time.
When I picked up my 19"x12" piece of 1/4" thick S30V it was a piece laying on the floor of Crucible Service Center that called out to me to make something cool. That was the better part of 2 years ago when S30V was relatively new stuff. Now I am just confused.

I don't know whos word to trust as that I have read alot of yalls previous posts and tests and I respect all the people who have posted yet so far.

Is it just the fact that there are unique steels better suited for certain things? Or is S30V much like D2 and just not suited for large knives?
Would ATS34 or CPM154 be better for large knives?

Just asking those who have been there and seen it all before as that I am young.
How long do you think it will take the market to figure out if S30V is worth it (as that that is where the real testing is done)? How long before the clients of the knife market complain about their bad S30V?

 

[Daniel Koster]

I wouldn't go so far as to say that S30V is the end-all, be-all steel. Just that, at present, it is at the top of its class.

Perhaps there are some soured by personal experience...but that's to be expected with any steel.

S30V is popular with buyers, makers and companies alike.

To insinuate that popularity is somehow disassociated with quality is to misunderstand the laws of supply and demand.

If people weren't buying it...we'd all stop using it, period.



Don't know if it matters...but long before I started using S30V...I owned a Benchmade Skirmish w/ S30V and was (and still am) quite impressed with it. I now have 2 other knives that I EDC that are S30V. I'm convinced - as both a maker and a buyer.

Also, I don't have a problem machining it. But, then again, I stop at 220 grit. Above that, I can't hack it.

 

[Daniel Koster]

Dave - 1/4" S30V is going to be quite strong. You'll want to leave the edge thick (say around 0.020") and polish the edge well (to aid in push cuts).



Also, I do like the discussion we're having. Keep it coming.

 

[the possum]

Does not look like a "brittle," inferior or even mediocre steel to me!

The point looks like it started out thicker than a phillips screwdriver, and still chipped off when pounding it through concrete. It took some decent blows with the hammer on the spine before breaking. But I've beat on cheap carbon blades on tillage equipment no thicker than that with a 20 pound sledge hammer, and only succeeded in wearing myself out.

 

[Jerry Hossom]

3.5" nails? Length really does matter, huh?

Not sure I understand why it does in this context, but it's your post. Everyone here is welcome to try the test for themselves. It's a pretty good test.

Let's back up. The question originally had to do with the availability of large blades is S30V. The response was that S30V is brittle so why want a knife in that steel anyway? Counter argument that as a stainless steel it is tougher than most. Counter that with it is not tougher than 12C27, 440A, 420, etc.; in fact these are better knife steels than S30V anyway. 440X cuts nail, and now insanity rules....

Stop. If Landes wants to use 12C27M in his knives, he's welcome to do so. If I tried to sell a knife in 12C27M, I'd be embarrassed.

Possum, if you made a knife that snapped across the blade, edge to spine, you should be embarrassed.

The point I was addressing is if S30V is brittle. I contend it is not, and in fact I wouldn't use it if I even suspected it were brittle. I know that NOT to be true. The reason I and other knifemakers use it is, I believe, due to its excellent balance of corrossion, wear and impact resistance. Cliff contends we who use it are either misguided or dishonest and are only interested in selling knives. I guess I have to ask if I didn't make knives in S30V if I would still sell the same number of knives? If all knifemakers stopped using S30V would they sell fewer knives? Can anyone actually believe that?

Cliff and Possum in a remarkable 30 minute burst of posts, two from each, have asserted that what I call lesser stainless steels are in fact SUPERIOR to S30V and/or 154CM. I guess I'll let the readers here decide if there is in fact a vast right wing steel conspiracy and all the new steels made by the best steel companies in the world are a massive hoax, offering no tangible benefits over steels made decades ago.

Sorry, I just can't buy that.

It's much easier to believe that Cliff and Possum are the same person...

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I wouldn't go so far as to say that S30V is the end-all, be-all steel. Just that, at present, it is at the top of its class.

Every material is at the top of its class by definition.

To insinuate that popularity is somehow disassociated with quality is to misunderstand the laws of supply and demand.

No it is completely naivity to assume people buy simply on quality. There are fads and misconceptions. Not simply on knives but on all products. There is the famous case for example of low noise vaccum cleaners not selling because people assumed lots of noise meant lots of power.

3.5" nails?

They are thicker, than shorter nails and thus would be more difficult to cut. But of course it doesn't matter. I could cut six inch spikes in half as well if I wanted to. They are only rolled mild steel, much softer than the knife. It proves nothing because the test is undefined. If you want an actual DEFINED test then read the work I cited which is a scientific study which was independently confirmed and published by a panel of experts. It shows your point is completely false.

Of course you would be embarassed to make a knife from 12C27M but it is perfectly valid for guys like Tai Goo to make knives from carbon steels with near identical microstructure. Would you be embarassed to use one of his knives? Would you tell one of your customers that it would be absurd to buy a knife made from 1055 or any other low carbon alloy/tool steel. Of course not, you are once again being completely inconsistent.

The point looks like it started out thicker than a phillips screwdriver, and still chipped off when pounding it through concrete.

For any property study you should have basically the direct opposite measured. This will how you the trade off for the property obtained. In the case of making high carbide steels like S30V tough you have to have a high cross section.

It took some decent blows with the hammer on the spine before breaking. But I've beat on cheap carbon blades on tillage equipment no thicker than that with a 20 pound sledge hammer, and only succeeded in wearing myself out.

One would expect so, what do you think the sledge hammer is made out of.

-Cliff

 

[JCaswell]

The point looks like it started out thicker than a phillips screwdriver, and still chipped off when pounding it through concrete. It took some decent blows with the hammer on the spine before breaking...

Well, I just don't see how a guy can watch that video and say, "Gee that knife is made of some pretty brittle stuff!"

 

[pbubsy]

Well, I just don't see how a guy can watch that video and say, "Gee that knife is made of some pretty brittle stuff!"

I definitely can't see that either .....I don't see any reason to knock S30V...I think it's a great steel. I like many different steels for different reasons. I've chipped S30V, I've chipped 440C, 154CM, and probably a couple others. All chips were probably due to some fatigued steel as they all occured on heavily used/touched up knives that were also used very hard. I don't think I've ever seen a "brittle" steel though I'm admittedly no expert. I think the term brittle is relative....if not being able to chisel or hack away at a cinder block without damage or chopping a nail in half without damage makes a blade not up to par I guess it must be a piece of crap I mean....MANY steels are brittle if you compare them with steels like Busse's INFI for example. Most folks would probably be pretty happy with them if they were never shown otherwise though.

I don't think S30V is a super steel, but I like it for what it is: a solid steel for a hard user. It's not perfect, but most everything is a sacrifice in some way or another.

I've popped metal bands with S30V with no damage before and also chipped it lightly on much softer mediums. All I had to do was take the edge down a little with some 1200 grit sand paper, strop it back up and it was good to go again with no problems. I had the same chipping experience with 440C...though I flattened the edge pretty well on the metal bands too . I've been happy with most all the knives I've had. Different steels seem to be good for differnt things.

Also, when it comes to testing like that done by Cliff....understand that some of his criticisms of knives aren't really that applicable to your average Joe...he uses things about as hard as you can and pushes them to their limits in many cases. Most people don't do that and wouldn't ever experience some of his findings. It's just nice to see his reviews so you know what you've got in some cases. I respect his opinion and know he knows his stuff, but I look at his tests as entertainment in many ways. He can put two years worth of use/wear on a knife in 2 weeks . I still look at his SHBM with awe!

What do you guys think of ZDP-189 compared to S30V? It seems like another new hit....I've never used it. I'd like to have a knife in Vascowear that would be another neat one to try out!

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I think the term brittle is relative.

Yes, all such terms are. It would be tough compared to T15 for example.

S30V is popular with buyers, makers and companies alike.

The most popular knives are actually made out of 420J2 and similar steels.

But I ask another question, do you think 1084 is an inferior steel to D2?

-Cliff