s30v

[Cliff Stamp]

It should, but too often it doesn't.

Sure, but that holds true for anything. Cedar is an easier wood to split than pine for example, no one would dispute this, but this assumes similar pieces of wood just like the above assumes similar pieces of steel. I don't understand your arguement, would you really want to restrict all such statements.

-Cliff

 

[mmarkh]

Sure, but that holds true for anything. Cedar is an easier wood to split than pine for example, no one would dispute this, but this assumes similar pieces of wood just like the above assumes similar pieces of steel. I don't understand your arguement, would you really want to restrict all such statements.

-Cliff

You don't get laid much,do you?

 

[hardheart]

yep. The CRK Green Beret knife is a fixed blade with military connotation. It is assumed everything about it is 'tough'. Once again, S30V must be a tough steel. Tough compared to what, who knows? Are there tougher steels, who cares? This knife is called the Green Beret, that's good enough.

Which is easier to split, cedar or pine? Well, I've got an old dresser made of cedar, it never split. It was expensive too. Must be a tough wood. Pine is pretty cheap at Home Depot, probably splits easy.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

The CRK Green Beret knife is a fixed blade with military connotation. It is assumed everything about it is 'tough'. Once again, S30V must be a tough steel.

You know how many horrible knives have had some kind of military connection? All that means is your product has the equal status of the lowest product to meet the same criteria. Hype!=tough.

-Cliff

 

[Jerry Hossom]

You stated that the lack of a significant carbide fraction made steels like 12C27M weak at the edge. If this statement was true then it would also hold for the non-stainless steels which have the same carbide fraction.


His work would be noted to confirm the references obviously. The entire body would be taken to support the arguement made which directly contradicts the above proposition by yourself.


That isn't what he did either. If you want to not continue being ignorant of his work you could actually TALK to him. He speaks english.


"ATS-34 when it is heat treated properly (I use Paul Bos in CA; he's the best and gets Rc60-61 with very fine grain structure in ATS) there are few steels that can measure up in all the qualities you want in a steel. One fact about steels known to most knifemakers is that stainless steel is tough."

That sound familiar.

-Cliff

Cliff, I would hope you are aware that the type of carbides influence their structural contribution. Comparing a high Chromium steel like 12C27M to 1084 with respect to total carbide content and edge stability is meaningless. Using your reasoning 12C27M and INFI might be considered in the same category.

References are chosen by an author to provide scientific background for a publication. They do not "confirm" the findings of that puclication. Your contention that Landes' work "was independently confirmed and published by a panel of experts" is factually incorrect and as a scientist you should know that.

I'm aware Landes speaks English. I've read what he's written on the subject on Sword Forum.

As for that quote, it does sound familiar but vaguely so since it was written a long time ago. I don't think I've used ATS-34 in over 5 years. "Tough" as it was used in that context related to working/machining the steel as I think you know. "Fine grain structure" was used to describe ATS steel heat treated by Paul Bos compared with the same steel heat treated by others or even myself. That was in a time before hair-splittng symantics became a significant part of the game we play here. I can't imagine how long it took you to find that.

 

[Jerry Hossom]

You know how many horrible knives have had some kind of military connection? All that means is your product has the equal status of the lowest product to meet the same criteria. Hype!=tough. -Cliff

Cliff, are you seriously suggesting the U.S. Special Forces didn't test this knife under some very rigorous conditions prior to buying it? You're speaking of people who actually know how knives are used, and actually use them in life or death situations where failure is not an option. They don't buy hype. To suggest they don't know any better is truly arrogant.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Cliff, I would hope you are aware that the type of carbides influence their structural contribution.

Interestingly enough that doesn't make as much difference as you would think. RWL-34 is not significantly more edge stable than ATS-34 even though RWL-34 is a P/M because the carbide volumes are almost identical.

Comparing a high Chromium steel like 12C27M to 1084 with respect to total carbide content and edge stability is meaningless. Using your reasoning 12C27M and INFI might be considered in the same category.

In terms of edge stability, carbide volume fraction is a major influence, along with hardness. This is shown clearly in Landes work.

Your contention that Landes' work "was independently confirmed and published by a panel of experts" is factually incorrect and as a scientist you should know that.

His thesis was defended to a panel of experts. His book is that work, written in lay language. The papers which he cites to support his work and which work he extends were of course peer reviewed.

-Cliff

 

[hardheart]

Cliff, are you seriously suggesting the U.S. Special Forces didn't test this knife under some very rigorous conditions prior to buying it? You're speaking of people who actually know how knives are used, and actually use them in life or death situations where failure is not an option. They don't buy hype. To suggest they don't know any better is truly arrogant.

and a tabbed E-7 told me his favorite knives were Cold Steel Recon 1s. He also collects Randalls. There was also that Ranger captain who was carrying a CRKT M16 one day and a production Emerson the next. Ontario, Benchmade, and Gerber are issue items. I don't look to the military to influence my choices, they run the gamut themselves.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Cliff, are you seriously suggesting the U.S. Special Forces didn't test this knife under some very rigorous conditions prior to buying it?

Probably as well as the SEAL's did for the SOG knife, or Buck Strider Solution which is a joke as a survival blade but was again passed by an elite military group. Yet I gave the blade to a carpenter and it was destroyed with some light wood work on pine because it was a deeply hollow ground ATS-34 blade suitable for a skinner.

-Cliff

 

[Cougar Allen]

You don't get laid much,do you?

That didn't contribute anything to the discussion. A warning has been issued.

 

[Jerry Hossom]

Probably as well as the SEAL's did for the SOG knife, or Buck Strider Solution which is a joke as a survival blade but was again passed by an elite military group. Yet I gave the blade to a carpenter and it was destroyed with some light wood work on pine because it was a deeply hollow ground ATS-34 blade suitable for a skinner.-Cliff

Specifically, what "elite military group" tested and passed the Buck Strider Solution? Regardless, what exactly are we supposed to draw from the fact (if true) that a carpenter destroyed a knife? Does that reflect on the steel as brittle, the hollow grind as an inappropriate geometry for the knife (all knives), the edge applied to the blade, the type of pine, the mindset of the carpenter, the particular task that resulted in failure, what exactly you may mean by the term "destroyed", or the danger of drawing meaningful conclusions from a single data point or example (as in the specific knife you gave to the carpenter)?

Cliff, you seem to position yourself as someone who knows more about knives, steel, etc. than ALL others (with the apparent exception of Landes, whom I gather agrees with your positions on these matters).

The fact of the matter is, most special operations forces prefer stainless knives for reason of reduced maintenance in field conditions. Also, few carry sharpening means with them so edge holding is important. Toughness is necessary because they often use knives for tasks other than cutting things. What steel would you suggest they use instead of S30V? Why aren't they using that steel now? Do you think there's a conspiracy involved because both Marine Corp Special Operations Command and U. S. Army Special Forces selected knives of S30V from two different knife companies?

Should they have selected knives in 12C27M instead?

 

[hardheart]

did they choose the steel, or did they choose the knife that happened to be made from that steel. That is to say, did SOCOM decide on S30V, or did Chris Reeve? It would be a better argument for the steel itself if the same pattern in multiple steel variants had been submitted.

 

[allenC]

Cliff, are you seriously suggesting the U.S. Special Forces didn't test this knife under some very rigorous conditions prior to buying it? You're speaking of people who actually know how knives are used, and actually use them in life or death situations where failure is not an option. They don't buy hype. To suggest they don't know any better is truly arrogant.

I'm an old Soldier myself, and while I was never SF I did know some SF guys and had the priviledge of working with them on occasion.
You might be surprised to hear this, but the ones I worked with didn't know much about knives at all.


BTW, I like S30V.

 

[Jerry Hossom]

Allen, I also had the opportunity to work with some SF folks (I'm old too), and the subject of knives never came up in my interactions with them. It just wasn't considered an important part of gear except for a machete for tropical use. Today I have the priviledge of making personal knives for some special operations people, and some still don't know a whole lot about knife construction or use as tools, but the ones who don't know squat about knives are not the ones who make selections for the unit/groups to purchase. SF personnel today are given a LOT more training in close quarters combat, particularly with knives, than they were just a few years ago. Knives have once again become important as weapons and were used extensively in some of the cave fighting in Afghanistan.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Specifically, what "elite military group" tested and passed the Buck Strider Solution?

USMC MWTC Sniper School endorses them.

Regardless, what exactly are we supposed to draw from the fact (if true) that a carpenter destroyed a knife?

That it was unsuitable for the relatively simple task that a skilled woodworker attempted. This would be obvious to any casual inspection of the knife since it is a high hollow grind on a brittle stainless steel with a very thin edge ground at < 13 degrees per side.

Should they have selected knives in 12C27M instead?

Yes, cheaper, more corrosion resistant and MUCH tougher.

You might be surprised to hear this, but the ones I worked with didn't know much about knives at all.

This is more of fantasy play acting on the part of users - I want to carry Rambo's knife is more appealing than - I want to carry the knife that an electrician uses.

-Cliff

 

[Jerry Hossom]

USMC MWTC Sniper School endorses them.

That it was unsuitable for the relatively simple task that a skilled woodworker attempted. This would be obvious to any casual inspection of the knife since it is a high hollow grind on a brittle stainless steel with a very thin edge ground at < 13 degrees per side.

Yes, cheaper, more corrosion resistant and MUCH tougher.

You have a reference for the Scout Sniper School Endorsement? It is almost unheard of for such a unit to endorse a commercial product, especially since they are issued Strider Folders.

Skilled woodworkers don't "destroy" knives - period. Then again if he used the wrong tool for the task, I guess he isn't a very skilled woodworker.

Does "tougher" exclude plastic deformation? It is cheaper; I'll give you that. I'm curious Cliff, are there ANY American developed and produced knife steels that you like? (besides INFI or A8 Modified of course) We're not dealing with some kind of anti-American thing here are we?

 

[Cliff Stamp]

You have a reference for the Scout Sniper School Endorsement?

It came directly from Buck, noted here on the forums many times.

"They abuse the hell out of them up there in the mountains and love them. Digging and prying are no problem. "

This is FAR more demanding than the work in pine which destroyed the knife unless they were digging and prying in styrofoam.

Then again if he used the wrong tool for the task, I guess he isn't a very skilled woodworker.

He was evaluating if it could handle the work. Specifically if it could handle the description noted in the above. The pine was only the first round, no subsequent rounds were needed as the knife was destroyed. As for his skill level, he currently runs a framing team working professionally for about 10 years for a very respected company which travels globally teaching R2000 building methods. He works with many master carpenters (this is a certified skill level, not an abstract title) with 20+ years of experience. But of course since that knife failed horribly it must be his fault and not the knife.

Does "tougher" exclude plastic deformation?

Plastic deformation is strength not toughness, and as noted in the above 12C27M has a higher edge stability than the high carbide steels, this is measured fact which has been PEER reviewed, not theory. The fact that you ignore it does not make it any less FACT. The notion that the work is not in english means it can be ignored is completely absurd.

...besides INFI or A8 Modified of course ...

I don't think there has ever been a firm statement from Busse that this steel is made in or not made in America. In any case I don't "like" steels, they are materials, I have no emotional attachment to them.

Steels have materials properties of which all specific types will score high in some and low in others. They are all suitable for some things and unsuitable for others. This is why they exist obviously.

19C27 has a higher carbide fraction than 13C26 (it is just moved to the right on the C/Cr graph) and thus has a slightly higher max hardness is significantly more wear resistant but has a lower edge stability, is more brittle and has lower corrosion resistance.

Which one is superior depends on what tasks are important for the knife to do well and which are low priority or not relevant. 12C27M for example would be much better for a large brush knife than 19C27, but 19C27 would be much better for a carpet cutting knife. 13C26 would be ideal for wood carving over either of those two.

-Cliff

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Here is a supporting piece of work which contradicts the common "high carbide = superior" mantra repeated often on Bladeforums:

http://www.messerforum.net/showthread.php?t=34401

This shows how a simple SAK and Opinel are far superior to ATS-34 and even S30V in edge stability. Note again, the SAK was SUPERIOR in edge retention to the S30V knives. The first note I have seen of this was by Johnston on rec.knives (late nineties) who critized high carbide steels for knives for this reason, the inability to hold a acute edge at high sharpness.

Yes this is again NOT english, you can easily translate it with BabelFish. Those forums by the way have an EXTREMELY low hype level and are very worth reading. Just have a german friend point out some threads and Babel them.

-Cliff

 

[the possum]

This ain't my thread, but I thought we were mainly talking about impact resistance, toughness, and strength of the material in regards to big chopping blades here.

I grabbed what I was told was an 8 penny nail (it was 3 3/4" long & about 4 1/2mm in diameter), laid it across the back of the vise, and pounded the knife through with a hammer.

3.5" nails? Length really does matter, huh?

Not sure I understand why it does in this context, but it's your post.

I mentioned the dimensions specifically because I wasn't sure if it was, in fact, an 8 penny nail. Our carpenter came in yesterday and told me it was actually a 16 penny nail. He said, "an 8 penny nail would be shorter and about half as thick," as the one I cut. So, does this new info make my test twice as impressive, or yours half as impressive?

I wasn't trying to impress you, Possum.
...The point I was making here is that the steel endured the test. I wasn't trying to explain why, only that it did whereas other knives in other steels failed in the same tests, which tests were representative of the intended use.

There's no need for us to belabor this point since we finally seem to be saying the same thing, in different ways. I'm just contending that if you're not trying to explain why (i.e., giving edge geometry specs, how the cuts were made, etc., etc.) the steel endured, there's not much point in mentioning it.

In another test, the same gentleman used an CPM-3V sword I made and cut through 9" of flesh and 3"+ of beef leg bone in a single stroke. That tough enough for you?

Once again, I don't know. I expect it probably would be if I knew the details. However, my bowie knife can easily get through 12" of flesh plus 2 1/2"-3" of deer neck bone- with the skin on (which makes a huge difference). A thin F. Dick butcher knife can easily snick through a smaller deer's neck if it's been skinned. And it'd probably only around .015" thick or so at the edge. (don't have it handy to measure.)

 

[Blop]

BTW, Ollie loves Strider knives and deals with them. He is not part of the "carbon faction"!

Well, a special police group (customs) has choosen ATS34 over standard 1.4034 (440A like) in a Boker Speedlock model because of higher edge retention.

Have there been special investigations about ATS34 properties or may ppl. from Boker just have offered a well sounding alternative (same price as standard)?

We don´t know. But should i expect metalurgists, were the main profession is to search and find bad boys, repectivly to that discussion: trained to kill?

What if there was just a steel snob, setting through, that the standard model features a steel he likes?

I have used different grades on same materials and found the differences little.

So my answer to Mr. Hossoms question, why S30V is used is: Because it may sound great, sell better but in fact makes no real differences. You might get better push cutting abillities even with 440C or take old 154CM again. Why not?