s30v

[kenk]

i'm having a hard time finding a good tough outdoor/survival knife made with s30v. most of the s30vs are folding knives or are small blades. why don't any companies have their regular medium and large sized fixed blades made with s30v?

Josh,

I certainly agree that the reason fewer fixed blades are using S30V is the cost of the blade. A folder uses half as much steel as a full-tang fixed blade.

Doug Ritter's RSK Mk3" (Ritter Survival Knife), more commonly referred to as the "fixed Rittergrip" has a 4.5 inch long, 0.140 inch thick S30V blade. The design is based loosley off the Benchmade fixed blade Griptilian. I say loosely because it has a different blade shape (very similar in size & shape to the folding Rittergrip, but with a slightly thicker blade), different blade material (S30V), different handle material (G10), different handle texture (CNC machined), and and different sheath (MOLLE compatible ballistic nylon w/ kydex insert). It is a medium sized knife - not a large chopper - 9.1 inches overall.

I've had one since last fall, and have come to like it a lot. It is my go-to camp knife. The somewhat unique handle shape (similar to the folding Rittergrips and griptilians) allows it to fit a fairly wide range of hand sizes.

You can read much more about the knife at http://www.equipped.org/rsk_mk3.htm or purchase one at http://www.aeromedix.com .

I don't know much about the chemistry and physics of S30V. All my opinions are based upon experience with the blades. After owning two Rittergrip folders (I EDC the mini Rittergrip) for years, and the fixed Rittergrip for almost a year, and using them regularly around the house, camping with family, and camping with my son's Boy Scout troop (I'm an asst. scoutmaster), I've had absolutely no issues with chipping. The blades have stayed very sharp after a lot of use, and they are easy enough to sharpen with my Sharpmaker using the 30 degree holes (to maintain the original grind angle).

Sorry guys, but I'm not taking any of my Rittergrips to a nail to test their metal chopping capabilities.


Ken K.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I've had absolutely no issues with chipping.

Even with the very worst products, with the highest defect rates, there are still the occasional ones which perform very well. I would ask you the following question. If you bought five knives from different manufacturers in S30V and had three of them be seriously defective and none of them impressive and return one of the defective ones and have the replacement be defective - what would your opinion be on the steel?

-Cliff

 

[the possum]

The response was that S30V is brittle so why want a knife in that steel anyway? Counter argument that as a stainless steel it is tougher than most. Counter that with it is not tougher than 12C27, 440A, 420, etc.; in fact these are better knife steels than S30V anyway. 440X cuts nail, and now insanity rules....

Cliff and Possum in a remarkable 30 minute burst of posts, two from each, have asserted that what I call lesser stainless steels are in fact SUPERIOR to S30V and/or 154CM.

No Jerry. I guess you missed my sarcasm. I did not cut a nail with a cheap blade to prove it was tougher than S30V and/or 154CM. I did so to prove your test -as stated- is worthless to learn anything reasonable about steel toughness.

Possum, if you made a knife that snapped across the blade, edge to spine, you should be embarrassed.

Yeah. I am embarrassed. Embarrassed that I listened to all those who promoted ATS-34 as a tough steel without ever checking published data from the steel industry. This was back in the 90's when that steel was still "hot". But I learned my lesson then, and you can be sure that experience, and my resulting research, is largely why I'm being so vocal now.
By the way, I later made another version of that same knife from steel that's much tougher according to published industry data. It has seen the same use & abuse, and it has held up pretty darn well. Coincidence?

While we're touching on that subject-

Possum, to have had such unfortunate experiences with steels you might be screwing up the edge when you sharpen your knives, ...That you "used it on a big chopper" suggests it was a knife you made yourself. Is that correct?

ANY steel can be screwed up if not used properly. You really don't have to work hard to intentionally ruin a knife, and it's even easier if the knife is poorly made - regardless of the steel used.

Possum, if you made a knife that snapped across the blade, edge to spine, you should be embarrassed.

Jerry, there's no need to pussyfoot around with insinuations here. Why don't you just call me a lousy knifemaker who doesn't know squat and be done with it? Then maybe we could just move forward & discuss the facts.

 

[Jerry Hossom]

It's hard to be consistent with you, Cliff. You are the master of non sequitur. I'd be happy to have a knife by Tai Goo. In fact I already own a knife by Tai Goo. He's a master craftsman, but he doesn't make hard use stainless knives.

What is the published reference by the "panel of experts"?

As for whatever Landes has said or not said, the only test of a steel that really matters is that which is in the context of the actual blade in which it is used, the method of manufacture used for that blade, and the intended use for which that blade is designed. Change or ignore variables and you no longer have a test from which you can draw conclusions. You and he can chop up as many concrete blocks as you like, all the while dismissing my nail chopping as unscientific, but you really can't gauge the success of a cutlery steel by sitting on the internet and reading steel company spec sheets and each other's drivel. If you both believe low carbon steels are more durable knife steels than higher alloy steels you clearly don't know the meaning of plastic deformation (as seen in the blade which didn't cut the 3-1/2" nail).

1084 is a great steel, but it's not especially wear resistant and it certainly isn't stainless. Is it inferior to D2? You bet, if what you want is serious wear resistance. Is it superior to D2? You bet it is, if you want a machete for chopping wood. There are lots of great steels that possess wonderful attributes and some of them make great edged tools and weapons, but none of them possess the unique combination of attributes available with S30V. There may be others; in fact I'm testing a couple, but at the moment I don't know of any that are clearly better. It certainly isn't 12C27M or anything like it.

Possum, I don't know anyone who called ATS-34 a "tough steel", but it certainly is a tough enough steel for most all knife applications if it's handled properly. Obviously you didn't. That you made another knife that "held up pretty darn well" is commendable.

I've never been accused of pussyfooting around.

 

[the possum]

1084 is a great steel, but it's not especially wear resistant and it certainly isn't stainless. Is it inferior to D2? You bet, if what you want is serious wear resistance. Is it superior to D2? You bet it is, if you want a machete for chopping wood. There are lots of great steels that possess wonderful attributes and some of them make great edged tools and weapons

And I like the way you've phrased this comment. I guess our main point of contention is whether S30V specifically has enough toughness for big chopping blades. You obviously think it does, so for the way you're making & using your knives, it must be good enough. I have not seen anything to convince me it would be good enough for my own uses.

Possum, I don't know anyone who called ATS-34 a "tough steel", but it certainly is a tough enough steel for most all knife applications if it's handled properly. Obviously you didn't.

Using that material in the first place was the problem. With that knife design, I didn't have the luxury of just making everthing three times thicker like Strider does. Paul Bos did the heat treating. I believe he "handled it properly", and got everything out of the material it had to offer. It just didn't have much to offer in the first place.

This was before the internet of course, and the magazines were full of praise for the steel. I don't remember specific names from back then who said it was tough, but I remember pouring over the pages and finding lots of testimonials about its toughness.
Heck, just a couple months ago in Blade, Joe Szilaski wrote an article about steel selection, and said he uses S7 for tomahawks when he wants a tough steel. In the very next sentence, he said "ATS-34 is another tough steel". (from memory- actually he may have said 154CM or something of like kind) When I read that, I was like WTF??? It's no wonder folks like Samurai Dave or myself back then get confused about this stuff.

I've never been accused of pussyfooting around.

Well, now ya have.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

It's hard to be consistent with you, Cliff. You are the master of non sequitur. I'd be happy to have a knife by Tai Goo. In fact I already own a knife by Tai Goo. He's a master craftsman, but he doesn't make hard use stainless knives.

Ok, now does that fit in with your comment that 12C27M is an embarassing steel when it has the same carbide class as the steels Goo uses?

What is the published reference by the "panel of experts"?

His thesis, and the 50 or so published papers he references.

You and he can chop up as many concrete blocks as you like ...

Showing your complete ignorance of his work and still dismissing it.

Possum, I don't know anyone who called ATS-34 a "tough steel"

You did. You used to use it extensively as did Strider.

-Cliff

 

[Cambridgeguy]

josh48315,
You mentioned you were in the market for a good tough outdoor/survival knife made with s30v in your original post.

I think Phil Wilson would make one for you in S30V (although I personally am much more interested in his fillet knife a 9 inch “Shelter Cove” with full tang and made to order with S30V if so desired and afforded-which I cannot. Would make a great ocean fishing fillet knife IMO incidentally. I’d get it for my son who enjoys ocean fishing). Wilson does make other more heavy-duty knives in S30V too. Here is his site address http://www.seamountknifeworks.com/ .

Also a very interesting outdoor/survival knife was mentioned earlier by another post – the Trident knife (now called “Crusader Forge”) which is made of S30V steel. These can be seen here http://www.tridentknives.com/TCFMKNIVES.htm and look like something you might be interested in. For example some of the specs for the “TCFM XL” include Blade Material: CPM S30V, Blade Thickness: 0.250"-0.265", Blade Length: 4.75"-5.00"
I also saw a review of one of the Crusader Forge knives (listed in the review then as “Trident Knives TCFM 02”) here http://www.militarymorons.com/weapons/blades.html .

Hope these suggestions help.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Wilson does make other more heavy-duty knives in S30V too.

Thanks for that, I didn't know he made those types of knives. Do you have any pictures.

-Cliff

 

[Jerry Hossom]

Ok, now does that fit in with your comment that 12C27M is an embarassing steel when it has the same carbide class as the steels Goo uses?

Cliff, you're reinforcing my point that you can not consider steel attributes individually or that I would consider such a blade by Tai Goo as the definitive survival knife. Carbide class? Another non sequitur.

His thesis, and the 50 or so published papers he references.

and from your prior post...

If you want an actual DEFINED test then read the work I cited which is a scientific study which was independently confirmed and published by a panel of experts.

How are the references in his thesis to be considered independent confirmation of his work when they preceeded his work? That is yet another example of your misstatements that causes me to question your academic credentials.

Showing your complete ignorance of his work and still dismissing it.

I'm not ignorant of his work insofar as it has been translated into English or been a part of his discussions on forums. I was being sarcastic, but only to the extent that you can not completely contrive laboratory conditions using a limited set of parameters and consider your conclusions from testing those conditions to be representative of the knife universe. It's like your testing a couple knives in a particular steel and drawing definitive conclusions about the steel. Doing so assumes you understand everything everyone else who is working with that steel understands. What you and Landes have done is interesting, but I would sincerely hope you don't consider it or represent it as the final word on all things steel.

You don't do you?

You did. You used to use it extensively as did Strider.

Did not!!

Cliff, I have never considered ATS-34 "tough". If I did I wouldn't have also used CPM-3V. I do consider ATS-34/154CM "tough enough" for the vast majority of knife tasks and in fact I still use 154CM/CPM-154, as well as S30V and CPM-3V. IMO, if the ATS-34/154CM edge is tough enough to cut nails without meaningful damage it is likely tough enough to survive normal use. I you want a blade to survive beyond normal use then choose a tougher steel like S30V or CPM-3V.

FWIW, all the knives I have made in ATS-34/154CM as well as those made by Strider are still under warranty and will be replaced if they fail under any conditions or task a knife might reasonably be expected to perform.

There's a very gifted martial artist (principally FMA) who used to post tactical knife test reviews on these forums. We still touch base occassionally, but I don't believe he's still in the knife testing business. During the course of a couple years he tested a number of tactical knives from various makers, challenging them with cuts that would be consistent with knife combat. Some of the results were posted on BF, some were just communicated to the maker to help him get better. The tests were in part to see how well the knife cut and handled and in part to see if the blade would fail (chipping or a snapped point usually). His final exam was a leg of lamb, which he would attempt to transect in a number of cuts, one of which was a diagonal cut that usually entailed about 6-7" of meat and 1+" of bone. Several knives were damaged, including those in 1084 and A2 (both of which failed for reasons of geometry rather than steel IMO). Interestingly, his reference blade, the one he used to make all the cuts everytime he tested a knife to ensure his cutting skill was referenced as well as the knife, was an ATS-34 fighting bowie I had made for him. The knife never failed. Was ATS-34 tougher than 1084 and A2? Of course not. Both those steels are tougher than ATS-34, but ATS-34 combined with how it was shaped and processed was tough enough. Does that make ATS-34 tough?

Well, I suppose it does after all....

 

[Broos]

Even with the very worst products, with the highest defect rates, there are still the occasional ones which perform very well. I would ask you the following question. If you bought five knives from different manufacturers in S30V and had three of them be seriously defective and none of them impressive and return one of the defective ones and have the replacement be defective - what would your opinion be on the steel?

If mfg's experienced a failure rate this high for S30V, no one would be using S30V. From looking at the vast numbers of knives available in S30V and the time since it was introduced & in use, obviously they are not experiencing unacceptable failure rates with it.

 

[hardheart]

why are steel mixes and knives being discussed as if they are interchangeable. a hunk of steel will exhibit a certain set of properties, which will differ from another hunk of steel. when you change the shape and size of the hunk, you change the results. same thing goes if those hunks are knife shaped.

 

[Thomas W]

If mfg's experienced a failure rate this high for S30V, no one would be using S30V. From looking at the vast numbers of knives available in S30V and the time since it was introduced & in use, obviously they are not experiencing unacceptable failure rates with it.

Wow Broos, a very fine post. Exceptional use of common sense. :thumbup:

 

[Gerberblades]

Is the al mar sere operator ok, using this steel? Because I am thinking of buying one, and I dont want a knife that is going to chip easy.

GB

 

[the possum]

There's a very gifted martial artist (principally FMA) who used to post tactical knife test reviews on these forums. During the course of a couple years he tested a number of tactical knives from various makers, challenging them with cuts that would be consistent with knife combat. The tests were in part to see how well the knife cut and handled and in part to see if the blade would fail (chipping or a snapped point usually). His final exam was a leg of lamb, which he would attempt to transect in a number of cuts, one of which was a diagonal cut that usually entailed about 6-7" of meat and 1+" of bone. Several knives were damaged, including those in 1084 and A2 (both of which failed for reasons of geometry rather than steel IMO). Interestingly, his reference blade, the one he used to make all the cuts everytime he tested a knife to ensure his cutting skill was referenced as well as the knife, was an ATS-34 fighting bowie I had made for him. The knife never failed. Was ATS-34 tougher than 1084 and A2? Of course not. Both those steels are tougher than ATS-34, but ATS-34 combined with how it was shaped and processed was tough enough. Does that make ATS-34 tough?

Well, I suppose it does after all....

And as you pointed out, unless we know how that ATS-34 was shaped and processed, and how the cuts were conducted, there's really nothing we can learn from this info. I've cut some bone from cattle & hogs, deer, coyotes, coons, possums, and others with a couple different blades, but no lamb. 7" of meat and 1" of bone do not impress me in the least. And the type of bone makes a big difference too.

 

[Jerry Hossom]

Excellent point Hardheart.

I wasn't trying to impress you, Possum. The point I made in your situation was conjecture as to why it failed. The point I was making here is that the steel endured the test. I wasn't trying to explain why, only that it did whereas other knives in other steels failed in the same tests, which tests were representative of the intended use. As I expressed above, I believe two of the knives that failed did so for reasons of geometry and not steel. Were I to assume they failed because of the steel used, that would be a Cliffism.

In another test, the same gentleman used an CPM-3V sword I made and cut through 9" of flesh and 3"+ of beef leg bone in a single stroke. That tough enough for you?

 

[Broos]

During the course of a couple years he tested a number of tactical knives from various makers, challenging them with cuts that would be consistent with knife combat. Some of the results were posted on BF, some were just communicated to the maker to help him get better. The tests were in part to see how well the knife cut and handled and in part to see if the blade would fail (chipping or a snapped point usually). His final exam was a leg of lamb, which he would attempt to transect in a number of cuts, one of which was a diagonal cut that usually entailed about 6-7" of meat and 1+" of bone. Several knives were damaged, including those in 1084 and A2 (both of which failed for reasons of geometry rather than steel IMO). Interestingly, his reference blade, the one he used to make all the cuts everytime he tested a knife to ensure his cutting skill was referenced as well as the knife, was an ATS-34 fighting bowie I had made for him. The knife never failed. Was ATS-34 tougher than 1084 and A2? Of course not. Both those steels are tougher than ATS-34, but ATS-34 combined with how it was shaped and processed was tough enough. Does that make ATS-34 tough?

Well, I suppose it does after all....

I'll put it a little differently than Jerry did. What I get from Jerry's illustration is that the material property of toughness is probably not as important as often assumed to be in how a knife will perform in use. Even a steel that is not so tough compared to other steels can still be plenty tough enough for use as a knife.

 

[hardheart]

Yes, but 'a' knife doesn't help in one's selection process. Every steel and every knife is a compromise. Perhaps I look at it wrong, but when someone asks about a tough steel, I think about steels with high charpy numbers, not any particular knives with whatever thickness at the spine or behind the edge. When someone specifically asks about tough knives, then I still think about knives with those same steels, but have to ask what else are they looking for, as the steel was designed to exhibit certain properties, but shaping it into a knife means it is supposed to accomplish certain tasks under differing conditions. So, someone wants tough, but they still have to explain what they are willing to give up for that toughness-corrosion resistance, wear resistance, ease of sharpening, etc etc. If they want a production knife or are on a limited budget, the choice is very restricted and tough may end up being 'tough enough' to get the job done while not matching all criteria.

When moving from a point where at least one property is selected as the most important, like toughness (which still is poorly defined) to simply 'better' or 'best' steels and knives, a person needs to waste a ****load of keystrokes telling the other thousand or so of us who view the thread what better is supposed to be. It would be a fairly simple question to answer if they want a 'better' steel, as each steel was formulated for a mix of properties. A 'better' knife is much harder to determine, as you add so many more elements to the mix, most of which cannot be measured by a metallurgist.

 

[Cambridgeguy]

This is from Phil Wilson’s website with regards to S30V(http://www.seamountknifeworks.com/about.htm ) :

. . . . “There are about 20 or so steels being used by commercial and custom makers. All of them make a decent blade if ground and heat treated properly. My current production is made up of these six cold work tool steel grades: 154CM/ATS34, CPM 420( S90V), AISI 420 HC, CPM 30V and CPM 10V
I use more 154 CM for fillet knives than any other steel. It is very stain resistant, has very good edge holding, and very good ductility. It is the American made equivalent of the better known ATS34. The majority of my hunting knives the last couple of years have been made with S-90V, S-30V or CPM 10V. I use AISI 420HC and 154CM/ATS34 and S-30V for kitchen knives. . . .”

Here are some photos (links) of Phil Wilson’s knives as per Cliff’s request:
http://www.seamountknifeworks.com/Gallerypage2.htm
http://www.seamountknifeworks.com/Gallery4.htm

Incidentally, here are the fillet knife photos too: http://www.seamountknifeworks.com/gallery.htm

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Cliff, you're reinforcing my point that you can not consider steel attributes individually or that I would consider such a blade by Tai Goo as the definitive survival knife. Carbide class? Another non sequitur.

You stated that the lack of a significant carbide fraction made steels like 12C27M weak at the edge. If this statement was true then it would also hold for the non-stainless steels which have the same carbide fraction.

How are the references in his thesis to be considered independent confirmation of his work when they preceeded his work?

His work would be noted to confirm the references obviously. The entire body would be taken to support the arguement made which directly contradicts the above proposition by yourself.

I was being sarcastic, but only to the extent that you can not completely contrive laboratory conditions using a limited set of parameters and consider your conclusions from testing those conditions to be representative of the knife universe.

That isn't what he did either. If you want to not continue being ignorant of his work you could actually TALK to him. He speaks english.

Cliff, I have never considered ATS-34 "tough".

"ATS-34 when it is heat treated properly (I use Paul Bos in CA; he's the best and gets Rc60-61 with very fine grain structure in ATS) there are few steels that can measure up in all the qualities you want in a steel. One fact about steels known to most knifemakers is that stainless steel is tough."

That sound familiar.

why are steel mixes and knives being discussed as if they are interchangeable. a hunk of steel will exhibit a certain set of properties, which will differ from another hunk of steel. when you change the shape and size of the hunk, you change the results. same thing goes if those hunks are knife shaped.

You can discuss generalities. 13C26 has a higher edge stability than 12C27M for example, just like the reverse is true of corrosion resistance. This assumes optimal heat treatment. You can also speak of the toughness of a steel such as L6 is tougher than T15. This assumes similar cross sections obviously. Just like you say hydrogen is lighter than lead.

-Cliff

 

[hardheart]

You can also speak of the toughness of a steel such as L6 is tougher than T15. This assumes similar cross sections obviously.

It should, but too often it doesn't. Striders are 'tough'. Striders are made of S30V. S30V is 'tough'. The train derails pretty quickly. If Mick ground an identical blade from S5, D2, etc. then there is a basis for comparison so 'tough' can be trimmed down to 'tough enough' or 'tougher/toughest.' Or we could just take the already established standardized test results for the steels, strength and toughness are already defined and quantified.