Cliff, I can't deal with lies and misrepresentations as you have resorted to several times in this thread alone.
To say the Marine Scout Sniper School "endorsed" a knife when in fact all you have to support that is an anecdotal comment from a manufacturer's representative is a gross distortion of fact. As was your assertion that Landes' work was "confirmed" by a panel of experts. What else was misrepresented?
Your "skilled carpenter" "destroyed" a knife performing a "simple task". There is no information to be gleaned from those assertions. Did you witness this work? What precisely was the carpentry task the carpenter was trying to do? Was the knife actually delivered with that thin <13 degree edge?
You didn't answer my question about American made steels.
I honestly don't know what to make of the Messerforum data. If someone thinks the steel in SAK's and Opinel's offers better wear resistance than S30V they should certainly buy whatever that steel is (425?). And I think your point to Possum about flea market knives is probably appropriate if people think the steel in $0.10 knives is better.
Or maybe, we just don't know much about the quality of the edges put on those knives prior to testing? There is no question that higher alloy steels are harder to sharpen and perhaps that's what was just proven. And maybe cutting that twine favored a thinner edge so steel choice really didn't matter a lot?
Possum!! I wasn't talking about your 3-3/4" nail. I was speaking of Cliff's 3-1/2" nail. And I'll invite anyone who believes you and Cliff that this is not a useful test to take their favorite EDC and hammer the edge through an 8d nail (any length is fine).
Here's what you'll learn. There is a difference between edge stability and "edge stability". One has to do with carbide retention in the steel matrix. That's the one Cliff cites that was work done by Landes. It has a lot to do with edge retention, since once the carbides fall out the knife isn't a very good cutter anymore. The other one has to do with the subject of this thread, 30V and if it's a useful steel for a big knife.
What happens to a big knife that doesn't happen to a small knife? Impact! Intense force, often focused on a small area of the edge. It can come from intentionally trying to cut cross grain hardwood or unintentionally by hitting a nail that was in a pine 2 x 4". It can come from hitting a rock, or it can happen if you get a little crazy and want to see what Cliff's concrete block cutting experiment actually reveals. One of two things happen. The edge breaks (chips) or the edge bends (plastic deformation, minor deformation is when an edge rolls as happens with kitchen cutlery made with steels like 12C27M, etc.). REGARDLESS of the steel used, if you hit the edge hard enough against an unyielding object one of those two things is going to happen.
Steel choices have to do with which of those two consequences are of most concern to you, what are you prepared to trade-off (e.g. wear and/or corrosion resistance) for your edge to survive such impacts, and how likely are you to even have to worry about those things. If it's the SAK in your pocket, you probably don't need to worry about incidental contact with nails in 2 x 4's. If it's a big chopper, you do. So, if you need something to withstand that event, you have to decide what you're prepared to pay to get immunity.
Give up stainless? OK, that makes the choices easier because you can immediately jump to one of many good low alloy tool steels, any of the 10xx series, L6, 5160, O1, W2, 52100, etc.
Give up stainless but want wear resistance? Little bit of a problem. Many tool steels aren't very wear resistance. That's why they don't use them in a lot of things like ball bearings. For wear, you need some carbides - hard stuff. Chromium carbides are easiest and you might get some stainless qualities as a freebie. D2 has lots of Chromium carbides in a very hard matrix and that makes for excellent wear resistance. It's not stainless but it's close. A2 is an option. It's not as wear resistant and not at all stainless, but it is tough and for impacts it's a good choice (it's about twice as tough as D2, and has less wear resistance , but it has more wear resistance than 10xx, etc.). Lot's of choices in that category.
How about just toughness? All I want is toughness. Some great steels here. S5, S7, A8, A8 Modified, etc. and titanium! Jackhammer bits and wood chipper blades. Doesn't matter what they hit, they won't go to pieces. They also won't hold an edge worth a darn. They're basically non stainless versions of Cliff's vaunted 12C27M.
Want a combination of attributes - some for wear, some for toughness, some for corrosion resistance? The world of steel awaits. Spyderco's chart is a great resource for see what steels are used in knives. According to Cliff, only those with less than 0.6% Carbon should be there.
http://66.113.178.251/edge-u-cation/index.php?item=3
Why are there so many choices? Because there's lots more to a knife than the "edge stability" defined by carbide retention. All of these steels and more are available to any knifemaker/manufacturer who wants to use them. If you want to add sizzle to the name, you can do what Cold Steel does and call whatever steel you use CarbonV, even if CarbonV is not always the same thing, or do what Swamp Rat does and call 52100 by the name SR101. It's good steel, just needs a spiffier and more proprietary name.
Lots of people want stainless, including the guy who started this thread. If you want a chopper in 12C27M you'll probably have to look in Europe. It isn't used much here. We have 440A, 420J2 and similar crap to serve the same purpose. If you want good wear resistance, get a better stainless like 440C, 154CM or ATS-34. If you want all that in a tougher stainless get CPM-154, RWL-34, or S30V (there are also some newer ones I've not tested that may also fit in this category, ie. 20CV.). If you want stainless, tough and very wear resistant I don't know of anything better than S30V. If I did I would use it.
The edge I showed that had the hole in it from my nail test was an Ontario machete, 1095 steel at Rc54-55. The failure was plastic deformation, just as happens with steels that low carbon content. CPM-1V (.55% carbon - same as 12C27) did the same thing.
Possum, I don't really know how to respond to a claim that you chopped through a deer neck with a blade that had an edge only 0.015" thick without any effect to the edge. I guess I'd have to see it. On the knife you made that cuts everything, what is the steel that you never seem to mention?
I'm not sure why I stay with this. I have a knife show in a week and should be making knives to sell, but the notion that some interested readers are being misled by those who are hyping their own egos far more than any knifemaker ever hyped a steel keeps me here far more than I should be.
Everyone needs to ask themselves this. Are there no honest knifemakers who use high alloy steels? Are all the high alloy steels produced in the past 50 years a hoax? Are people who use knives in these steels not aware they've been defrauded by dishonest knifemakers? Why haven't all the enrollees at the Marine Scout Sniper School sent all their Buck knives back to the factory? Or is what they do just not as challenging as the tasks performed by your average Newfoundland master carpenter?
I hope some common sense will prevail here. I have steel (S30V and CPM-3V) to finish.
