Safety of non-locking folders like Boy Scout & SAK

[ev13wt]

I guess driving is best taught in cars with no safety devices too?

Yesno. No ABS, no traction control no sliding correction no nothing. but WITH a seatbelt and airbag. Not on public roads though... Its how I was taught and it really helped my driving. I did flip my dads truck twice, but hey I lived.



I agree with everyone that said slipjoint + educating.Or small fixed + educating.

 

[AreBeeBee]

I'm in the non-locking camp, since that's where I first began back in Scouts. (An Opie or other friction folder is also a good idea, for the reasons mentioned.)

My point is this: If you know the knife can close on your finger, it makes you handle it more carefully and think about what the edge is doing and the forces on it. That's the learn-judgement-and-skills part of owning a first knife.

Locks are crutches in that they confer a false sense of security. I think a kid with a first knife should be hyper-aware of how he/she can get cut with it. I want that person to have a safety-first mentality.

(I also oppose training wheels on bikes, which probably won't surprise anyone.)

 

[chris0827]

You're just deferring to the authority of the BSA. Whatever their position, they could be wrong on the topic.

And, yes, if their position is that the first knife for an 11 y.o. should be a slip joint, then we're all arguing that they're wrong.

Their record since 1911 gives their opinion a lot more credibility than yours! If they didn't know what they were talking about and pushed kids into using things that regularly hurt them, the organization simply wouldn't still be around 103 years later! Just because you don't feel a slip joint is safe for your individual child, doesn't change the fact they have been used safely by MILLIONS of children 7 and up for over a century!

 

[chris0827]

i'm in the non-locking camp, since that's where i first began back in scouts. (an opie or other friction folder is also a good idea, for the reasons mentioned.)

my point is this: If you know the knife can close on your finger, it makes you handle it more carefully and think about what the edge is doing and the forces on it. That's the learn-judgement-and-skills part of owning a first knife.

Locks are crutches in that they confer a false sense of security. I think a kid with a first knife should be hyper-aware of how he/she can get cut with it. I want that person to have a safety-first mentality.

(i also oppose training wheels on bikes, which probably won't surprise anyone.)

this!

 

[Dknight16]

I didn't read this whole tread, but who considers getting a pocket knife for an 11 year old with an eye toward self-defense?

 

[singularity35]

I'm in the non-locking camp, since that's where I first began back in Scouts. (An Opie or other friction folder is also a good idea, for the reasons mentioned.)

My point is this: If you know the knife can close on your finger, it makes you handle it more carefully and think about what the edge is doing and the forces on it. That's the learn-judgement-and-skills part of owning a first knife.

Locks are crutches in that they confer a false sense of security. I think a kid with a first knife should be hyper-aware of how he/she can get cut with it. I want that person to have a safety-first mentality.

(I also oppose training wheels on bikes, which probably won't surprise anyone.)

That's just ridiculous, crutches you say?

So WITH PROPER USE a non locking knife can't fail but a locking knife will fail because it has a crutch?

Training wheels OTOH is a different matter. Takes longer to learn with them. How much harder is it to learn proper knife use with a locking knife? It's the same technique after all. Just apply pressure on the cutting side and cut away from you.

Helmets, elbow and knee pads are the analogous items to locks. In case s**t happens, they provide some small measure of protection. However, it's hard to protect anyone from a stupid mind, no matter what kind of training you give them. Well, electric shocks might do the trick...

If you can teach someone to use a slip joint properly, I betcha you can train children to use lockers as well. I wonder where this "false sense of security" mindset is coming from anyway. It's usually stated like it's already a given when using locking folders.

I didn't read this whole tread, but who considers getting a pocket knife for an 11 year old with an eye toward self-defense?

Where did this come from?

 

[jackknife]

On a side note if I had a similar knife as an EDC, would it be completely ineffective as a Self Defense weapon?
.

From that, I guess.

 

[singularity35]

From that, I guess.

Ahh gotcha.

 

[midnight flyer]

Really, beyond the hyperbole, the straw man arguments, the deflective strategies and the chest thumping, shouldn't the parents be the ones to make the decision?

If you think your kiddo is ready for a slip joint with no safety device, then buy it. As a parent, you are the on gambling with your kid's safety. Get it right, and good for you!

If you feel that your kiddo needs that one tiny bit of extra protection that a lock might give in case as a youngster he/she has a brain f@rt, get one with a lock. It goes without saying that a locking device won't prevent accidents or dumb behavior, so one should prepare for that as well.

Either way, its on the parents to have their children's safety and well being in mind. A parent that puts a knife in the hands of a child is responsible for the results, good or bad. I am not in favor of the nanny state mentality and know that every child is different, as will be the instruction they get from their parents on how to use a knife.

I think as long as a parent can look at a gash, scar, bad cut or slice, or anything else that a child might do or have happen as an accident and immediately own up to friends, family and spouses with a "hey... sorry, that's on me!" regardless of which type of knife was involved might be a good way to look at it. They should approach their proud proclamations of damage and its results with the same zeal that they do if a knife is purchased and all goes swimmingly, when they will no doubt take credit for their fine parenting skills.

This thread seems to have devolved/evolved into more of a commentary on societal right or wrong rather than a discussion on which knife to buy for a child. The child was left a couple of pages back...

Robert

 

[AreBeeBee]

That's just ridiculous, crutches you say?

So WITH PROPER USE a non locking knife can't fail but a locking knife will fail because it has a crutch?

Locks are crutches for beginners, and they do confer a false sense of security. I want a kid to pick up his/her first knife with a scary awareness that it can do major harm to themselves if they don't handle it right. It's up to every parent to determine if their kid is capable of that awareness. If Junior isn't ready for that Serious Talk from you about careless actions, then no knife for you, kiddo.

I mentioned trianing wheels not because they're analogous to locks on knives, but more because they promote that same false sense of security, which ultimately stands in the way of learning what a tool can do, what it can't, and knowing when you're approaching its limits.

How much harder is it to learn proper knife use with a locking knife? It's the same technique after all. Just apply pressure on the cutting side and cut away from you.

Agree completely. But learning that a tool can fail on you if you push in the wrong direction is one of those life experiences everybody has to learn. The smarter kids, which doesn't include me by the way, will pick this up without experiencing any cuts. And this learning might as well start with a non-locking pocket knife.

I wonder where this "false sense of security" mindset is coming from anyway. It's usually stated like it's already a given when using locking folders.

I think it comes from the fact that many people — more than you think — have been conditioned to act as if everything in life has an "Undo" button somewhere. Also, from the de-facto childproofing of the country.

 

[AreBeeBee]

Maybe I can sum up my thinking on this as the following:

If a kid isn't ready to have a non-locking pocket knife, that kid isn't ready to have a locking knife either.

 

[singularity35]

1]Locks are crutches for beginners, and they do confer a false sense of security.[/B] I want a kid to pick up his/her first knife with a scary awareness that it can do major harm to themselves if they don't handle it right. It's up to every parent to determine if their kid is capable of that awareness. If Junior isn't ready for that Serious Talk from you about careless actions, then no knife for you, kiddo.

Well, that seems to be a opinion rather than fact and you can't support that. If that premise was "supportable" then this discussion would have been over a long time ago.

It seems to be that you're assuming that people will alter their behavior when presented with a locking knife. I doubt that's the case. A sensible person will be a sensible person and stupid is as stupid does. I wonder why the assumption exists unless of course, it's just projection. "I would think this way if it were me, so it must be true of everyone".

Agree completely. But learning that a tool can fail on you if you push in the wrong direction is one of those life experiences everybody has to learn. The smarter kids, which doesn't include me by the way, will pick this up without experiencing any cuts. And this learning might as well start with a non-locking pocket knife.

The smarter kids as you call them will also be able to discern that a lock is not a fail safe and that it's like helmet and pads. You hope they'll protect you but you still do what you can to avoid a crash. That's what locks are for me.

Stupid kids will be stupid no matter what kind of a tool you give them. Smart kids will be smart. I wonder why this doesn't seem to enter your minds. You seem to think that locks will automatically make kids stupid. That's such a lame attitude to have towards your own kids.

I think it comes from the fact that many people — more than you think — have been conditioned to act as if everything in life has an "Undo" button somewhere. Also, from the de-facto childproofing of the country.

Nope, I think it comes more from projection rather than actual situation. How in the world could you know that? Are you just making assumptions?

Maybe I can sum up my thinking on this as the following:

If a kid isn't ready to have a non-locking pocket knife, that kid isn't ready to have a locking knife either.

This one I'm with you 100 percent but with a caveat. If a kid is ready for a folding knife AND he has a good teacher, he will learn equally well the limits of the tool whatever it is.


The only argument really is whether a child or an adult for that matter will act stupidly if a knife has a lock compared to a slip joint. If we grant your assumptiom them yes, a slip joint might be a better tool to learn on.

But let's grant my assumption for a minute. That a properly taught person will not be stupid and use a knife with respect. If god forbid, there's a slip and pressure is suddenly applied to the spine in the closing direction...what then?

 

[singularity35]

Their record since 1911 gives their opinion a lot more credibility than yours! If they didn't know what they were talking about and pushed kids into using things that regularly hurt them, the organization simply wouldn't still be around 103 years later! Just because you don't feel a slip joint is safe for your individual child, doesn't change the fact they have been used safely by MILLIONS of children 7 and up for over a century!

But you really can't say that if they used locking folders, that there will have been more injuries, can you?

 

[calvinw]

Their record since 1911 gives their opinion a lot more credibility than yours! If they didn't know what they were talking about and pushed kids into using things that regularly hurt them, the organization simply wouldn't still be around 103 years later! Just because you don't feel a slip joint is safe for your individual child, doesn't change the fact they have been used safely by MILLIONS of children 7 and up for over a century!

Hilarious. You're just doing the same deferring.

Yes, they have more credibility than me. Yes, I still believe I am right. Precisely that.

The senate was more credible than Socrates. The church was more credible than Galileo. Newton was more credible than Einstein. Einstein was more credible than Planck.

 

[RedLynx]

That's just ridiculous, crutches you say?

So WITH PROPER USE a non locking knife can't fail but a locking knife will fail because it has a crutch?

Honestly, those in the thread who think a slipjoint is the "proper and best" way to learn how to use a knife are suggesting that for one simple reason: It's what they started with, and if they learned with it, it should be good enough for everyone else. Regardless of all else, this is the reason. I think a slipjoint is a great first knife. I think a friction folder is a great first knife. I think a locking knife is a great first knife.

In general, I think a knife is a great first knife.

 

[chris0827]

But you really can't say that if they used locking folders, that there will have been more injuries, can you?

No I can't- but the record of organizations like the BSA proves that using a non-locking knife didn't result in any significant level of injuries either.

It all boils down to training and maturity. If you are properly trained, it doesn't matter what knife you use. If you are improperly trained or if you (or more likely your parents) are stupid... Well, then it's on mom and dad for giving a knife to someone who isn't ready. No locking mechanism can fix stupid.

 

[chris0827]

Hilarious. You're just doing the same deferring.

Yes, they have more credibility than me. Yes, I still believe I am right. Precisely that.

The senate was more credible than Socrates. The church was more credible than Galileo. Newton was more credible than Einstein. Einstein was more credible than Planck.

As I've said before, you're absolutely free to believe what you want when it comes to your child, even if it flies in the face of proven programs that predate us all (and will still be around long after we're gone). If you choose to shelter them from the realities of life and impart upon them illusions of safety, then that is your prerogative.

 

[Ford1911]

Sounds like you want to get your kid a lock blade knife. I wouldn't go through all this aggravation if you know that's what you want. Lock or no lock just teach your child proper knife safety. I think that is the most imprtant thing.

 

[dogstar]

I think we are blowing the dangers of locking vs. non-locking out of proportion. As some posters have already said, it's the pointy tool with the sharp edge aspect of all knives that demand the most respect.

 

[RedLynx]

I think we are blowing the dangers of locking vs. non-locking out of proportion. As some posters have already said, it's the pointy tool with the sharp edge aspect of all knives that demand the most respect.

Best post. I don't think a locking knife will somehow not instill this fearful respect some posters want... the sharp, pointy edge will do that all on its own, lock or no.