Sebenza 31 Lock Rock?!

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690D34F5-CC62-4882-94BB-8A82FADD6675.jpeg Not to thicken the plot on the 31... but I noticed that this screw was backing out on me. As that was happening the knife was getting very smooth and easy to open. When in fact the pressure on the blade was decreasing.
I went to tighten these down and as I did so, you where no longer able to open the knife.
At this point I have backed to screws out just a touch and added a drop on thread lock to each.

Again I will add... Who has ever had the lock face wear in to the point of failure? Where is the knife with the lock bar with over to 100% lock up and the blade has movement. This locking mechanism has been made for sometime now. There must be at least one...? This issue has called for a re design and I have yet to hear of one issue.

After sometime with the 31 I can without a doubt say the 21 was a better knife, as of now.
 
I'm sad to hear Tim comment on how easy the 21 lock is to damage. Please forgive me if I'm wrong as it's been a while, but in the video didn't he say something about damaging it with his hands? I have been around 21's for a while and broken locks were never a thing on here. The factory may get a different view, maybe lots of 21's came in with damaged locks. I just don't see the need for the stronger lock as the 21 never had problems. Trading the very reliable and consistent 21 lock out for the see what you get 31 lock for me leaves a bad taste. The newer more indestructible lock has had a difficult launch and alienated some fans. I just think it was a bad move.

OPINION ALERT!!!
1. The 21 lock was fine though they thought it was time for an update. They tried but couldn't really surpass 21 perfection. The market was getting flooded with 21's as they had been around for a while. This was probably a "calculated" decision to move some more product. Sadly, someone(s) misread the buyers and produced the "buy it because it's new" 31.
2. The 31 lock has been hyped by Tim as better in multiple ways, but we are just not seeing this greatness. The company is telling us how good the knife is, we aren't telling them. They don't get to tell me what's better or what improved means.
3. The 31 lock is done to streamline production for perhaps faster and/or cheaper manufacture... The company is justifying this by saying the knife is better this way. It's the modern way to cut corners (streamline production) but still sell the product as better than before. Prices don't reflect these efficiency gains though...

The company has handled this very poorly. Covid and civil unrest are not reasons why Tim and a few guys can't zoom and get us some explanations. CR needed to just take a stand either way (it's fine or design flaw) and EXPLAIN why. (The reply email to a user that was posted here recently is about all we've seen other that the initial don't worry about it comment.) Their perceived silence and distancing from the issue to me show a guilty conscious and perhaps the internal struggle to admit regret. Tim said this "feature" or rocking and clicking for a more brutal absolute strength was debated internally. The guys at the factory that understood the customers lost, the make it faster and easier for less crowd won out.
 
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MreeceC said:
View attachment 1353154 Not to thicken the plot on the 31... but I noticed that this screw was backing out on me. As that was happening the knife was getting very smooth and easy to open. When in fact the pressure on the blade was decreasing. I went to tighten these down and as I did so, you where no longer able to open the knife. At this point I have backed to screws out just a touch and added a drop on thread lock to each.
Click to expand...

WOW! This just screams tight tolerances and aerospace quality. Remember when the ISS had that bolt fall out and that hatch that clicked and wiggled when you pulled on it? I said it before but all companies have a high water mark. The 21 was Reeve on the ebb coming into greatness and the 31 is the flow back out to mediocrity.

With that said, the 21 held the high water mark at the very top for a very long time. I guess it's good we reflect on how long CR was basically perfection. Lacking that perfection, I just can't put the money down for another sebenza.
 
MreeceC said:
Not to thicken the plot on the 31... but I noticed that this screw was backing out on me.
Click to expand...
The screw backs out because of the hardened, "integral" stop pin. There was good reason for Chris to use male and female screws of the same rather soft steel in combination with a hardened sleeve for the stop pin. The new stop pin is a faulty design and part of the problem.
 
Honed_Edge said:
I'm sad to hear Tim comment on how easy the 21 lock is to damage. Please forgive me if I'm wrong as it's been a while, but in the video didn't he say something about damaging it with his hands? I have been around 21's for a while and broken locks were never a thing on here. The factory may get a different view, maybe lots of 21's came in with damaged locks. I just don't see the need for the stronger lock as the 21 never had problems. Trading the very reliable and consistent 21 lock out for the see what you get 31 lock for me leaves a bad taste. The newer more indestructible lock has had a difficult launch and alienated some fans. I just think it was a bad move.

OPINION ALERT!!!
1. The 21 lock was fine though they thought it was time for an update. They tried but couldn't really surpass 21 perfection. The market was getting flooded with 21's as they had been around for a while. This was probably a "calculated" decision to move some more product. Sadly, someone(s) misread the buyers and produced the "buy it because it's new" 31.
2. The 31 lock has been hyped by Tim as better in multiple ways, but we are just not seeing this greatness. The company is telling us how good the knife is, we aren't telling them. They don't get to tell me what's better or what improved means.
3. The 31 lock is done to streamline production for perhaps faster and/or cheaper manufacture... The company is justifying this by saying the knife is better this way. It's the modern way to cut corners (streamline production) but still sell the product as better than before. Prices don't reflect these efficiency gains though...

The company has handled this very poorly. Covid and civil unrest are not reasons why Tim and a few guys can't zoom and get us some explanations. CR needed to just take a stand either way (it's fine or design flaw) and EXPLAIN why. (The reply email to a user that was posted here recently is about all we've seen other that the initial don't worry about it comment.) Their perceived silence and distancing from the issue to me show a guilty conscious and perhaps the internal struggle to admit regret. Tim said this "feature" or rocking and clicking for a more brutal absolute strength was debated internally. The guys at the factory that understood the customers lost, the make it faster and easier for less crowd won out.
Click to expand...

The 21 had to go but not because it is an inferior product, but because Tim and Anne had something to prove. The heart of CRK was a Master Custom Cutler, Innovative Designer and Master Machinist. Tim and Anne fulfill that role now. To prove it the Sebenza had to have their "stamp".
 
Honed_Edge said:
I'm sad to hear Tim comment on how easy the 21 lock is to damage. Please forgive me if I'm wrong as it's been a while, but in the video didn't he say something about damaging it with his hands? I have been around 21's for a while and broken locks were never a thing on here. The factory may get a different view, maybe lots of 21's came in with damaged locks. I just don't see the need for the stronger lock as the 21 never had problems. Trading the very reliable and consistent 21 lock out for the see what you get 31 lock for me leaves a bad taste. The newer more indestructible lock has had a difficult launch and alienated some fans. I just think it was a bad move.

OPINION ALERT!!!
1. The 21 lock was fine though they thought it was time for an update. They tried but couldn't really surpass 21 perfection. The market was getting flooded with 21's as they had been around for a while. This was probably a "calculated" decision to move some more product. Sadly, someone(s) misread the buyers and produced the "buy it because it's new" 31.
2. The 31 lock has been hyped by Tim as better in multiple ways, but we are just not seeing this greatness. The company is telling us how good the knife is, we aren't telling them. They don't get to tell me what's better or what improved means.
3. The 31 lock is done to streamline production for perhaps faster and/or cheaper manufacture... The company is justifying this by saying the knife is better this way. It's the modern way to cut corners (streamline production) but still sell the product as better than before. Prices don't reflect these efficiency gains though...

The company has handled this very poorly. Covid and civil unrest are not reasons why Tim and a few guys can't zoom and get us some explanations. CR needed to just take a stand either way (it's fine or design flaw) and EXPLAIN why. (The reply email to a user that was posted here recently is about all we've seen other that the initial don't worry about it comment.) Their perceived silence and distancing from the issue to me show a guilty conscious and perhaps the internal struggle to admit regret. Tim said this "feature" or rocking and clicking for a more brutal absolute strength was debated internally. The guys at the factory that understood the customers lost, the make it faster and easier for less crowd won out.
Click to expand...

Amen.
 
brownshoe said:
... To prove it the Sebenza had to have their "stamp".
Click to expand...
Exactly. The "stamp" unfortunately is an inexpert comingling of construction features, which have proven themselves in different, coherently designed knife models, and some new construction features (i.e. the integral stop pin).
From a marketing point of view (not so sure about the production point of view) this combination makes a lot of sense, but from the viewpoint of (the intricacies of) folding knife construction there is now overwhelming evidence that it doesn't work. The current construction of the 31 will not stand the test of time.
 
The only knife I’ve owned (out of 100+) that I could easily and completely unsafely defeat the lockup on was a Sm 21. It had lock movement and I thought I’ll only send it in if it seems unsafe. So I applied an acceptable amount of pressure on the spine and could close the knife. The wedge angle shape of the interface just caused it to slip right out of the way somehow. From Colorado to Idaho, lock side replaced and back to me 100% refurbed was a 10 day turnaround. I think CRK is the best in the business. I think the 31 is probably the finest knife available. It’s just a departure from what we think we understand.
 
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Looks like the 31s, 21s, 25s have this not just the 31. So why pick only on the 31? Ive never checked any of my knives til I read this thread.
 
mag1 mag1 ^^^^, whoever brought this issue up has ruined the buzz of a lot of people and thrown a huge monkey wrench into CRK’s engine whether they intended to or not.

All of the ceramic ball interface knives flex. This has been the case for many years, but people were not obsessed with pushing down on the spine. It is not something anyone would normally do, and they loved their knives. But now the cat is out of the bag, and if this flex puts you off of the 31, then you will also become disillusioned with your 25’s, Zaan’s, and Inkosi’s. We knife collectors are passionate and obsessive. As has been said here several times, once it is in your head, it is impossible to get it out.

Now that this has been unleashed, CRK is going to have to weather the storm and hope that the percentage of obsessive types is much smaller than their larger knife buying population. They can’t really go back to the 21 now that they have commented on the fact that the lock is not too difficult to break. What a mess! It was bad judgment to say anything bad about the 21.

They really have to stick with the 31 now and hope that they can convince enough people that the flex is worth it with respect to ALL of their locking knives. It must drive them mad at CRK to know that people all over the country are putting tremendous force on the spine of their knives searching for the slightest flex! I believe their reluctance to say much about this is because they know they are between a rock and a hard place. There is really nothing they can say at this point to make anything better. They just have to hope this blows over someday. Whatever happens, this controversy has weakened the brand. That will make some people who have always disliked CRK very happy. It just makes me feel depressed.

After looking at other sites, it seems most 31 buyers are happily unaware of the flex,... so far. They love their 31’s. The one that I have is very solid, but I am sure that if some of the guys on this thread got ahold of it, they would have it flexing in no time!

kidcongo kidcongo and P Peter Hartwig , your points are well taken, this is mostly a mind game. It has given obsessive people the perfect object for their obsession. I cannot make my 31 move with the amount of pressure I am willing to use. But some people will not stop until they find what they fear or what they want to find. The truth is that all of these knives will flex if you push hard enough. The ceramic ball just makes it slightly less difficult.

F familyphotoshoot , if I ever buy any locking knife that clicks, I will return it in a heartbeat. However, I do accept what people have posted here in good faith as what they have experienced, but as kidcongo kidcongo has mentioned, we are all doing different things without any standardization for comparison purposes.
 
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Maybe someone with the time to sift this thread can answer these questions:

How many people in this thread own a 31 with issues? How many are just speculating and adding fuel to the fire with no intimate knowledge?

I’m starting to think this Sebenza 31 lock-Rock issue is the Covid 19 of the knife world. 90% media insanity, and 10% actual concern.

Could be wrong. Looking forward to purchasing one when they have the Insingo version.
 
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kidcongo said:
Maybe someone with the time to sift this thread can answer these questions:

How many people in this thread own a 31 with issues? How many are just speculating and adding fuel to the fire with no intimate knowledge?

I’m starting to this this Sebenza 31 lock-Rock issue is the Covid 19 of the knife world. 90% media insanity, and 10% actual concern.

Could be wrong. Looking forward to purchasing one when they have the Insingo version.
Click to expand...

I think that is going to be a bit hard to sort out.
Of the posters a few seem to have actual issues, but more the issue is they don't like the movement- there issue is comfort with the knife as opposed to worry of lock failure. This thread got them all looking for the movement, and many found some. I don't go looking for movement in my knives(has to come up in normal use), but once I find it there is no turning back. It will drive me nuts until I solve it. Which is why I don't go looking for it.
Not having a 31 yet, I have no idea if this would bother me or not-and some seem to be rock solid.
 
kidcongo said:
Maybe someone with the time to sift this thread can answer these questions:

How many people in this thread own a 31 with issues? How many are just speculating and adding fuel to the fire with no intimate knowledge?

I’m starting to this this Sebenza 31 lock-Rock issue is the Covid 19 of the knife world. 90% media insanity, and 10% actual concern.

Could be wrong. Looking forward to purchasing one when they have the Insingo version.
Click to expand...

See my post earlier in the thread. Last month I handled two 31s with May 2020 birthdays that could pretty easily be made to flex/rock, with an audible clicking noise. I kept one and traded the other. I bought each one from different ADs and find it extremely unlikely that I just happened to get two lemons from two different sources. I think this is just something that's inherent to the ceramic ball interface, at least until they break in a bit. My Umnumzaan and Inkosi will rock as well, but it takes much more force. I would be very curious to see how the 31 lock rock compares to an Inkosi or Zaan brand new out of the box. I suspect that as the ceramic ball wears into the lock face the interface settles in and gets more secure. I still plan of keeping and using the 31 I hung on to and seeing how it compares to my Inkosi and Zaan after a few months.
 
Leslie Tomville said:
mag1 mag1 ^^^^, whoever brought this issue up has ruined the buzz of a lot of people and thrown a huge monkey wrench into CRK’s engine whether they intended to or not.

All of the ceramic ball interface knives flex. This has been the case for many years, but people were not obsessed with pushing down on the spine. It is not something anyone would normally do, and they loved their knives. But now the cat is out of the bag, and if this flex puts you off of the 31, then you will also become disillusioned with your 25’s, Zaan’s, and Inkosi’s. We knife collectors are passionate and obsessive. As has been said here several times, once it is in your head, it is impossible to get it out.

Now that this has been unleashed, CRK is going to have to weather the storm and hope that the percentage of obsessive types is much smaller than their larger knife buying population. They can’t really go back to the 21 now that they have commented on the fact that the lock is not too difficult to break. What a mess! It was bad judgment to say anything bad about the 21.

They really have to stick with the 31 now and hope that they can convince enough people that the flex is worth it with respect to ALL of their locking knives. It must drive them mad at CRK to know that people all over the country are putting tremendous force on the spine of their knives searching for the slightest flex! I believe their reluctance to say much about this is because they know they are between a rock and a hard place. There is really nothing they can say at this point to make anything better. They just have to hope this blows over someday. Whatever happens, this controversy has weakened the brand. That will make some people who have always disliked CRK very happy. It just makes me feel depressed.

After looking at other sites, it seems most 31 buyers are happily unaware of the flex,... so far. They love their 31’s. The one that I have is very solid, but I am sure that if some of the guys on this thread got ahold of it, they would have it flexing in no time!

kidcongo kidcongo and P Peter Hartwig , your points are well taken, this is mostly a mind game. It has given obsessive people the perfect object for their obsession. I cannot make my 31 move with the amount of pressure I am willing to use. But some people will not stop until they find what they fear or what they want to find. The truth is that all of these knives will flex if you push hard enough. The ceramic ball just makes it slightly less difficult.

F familyphotoshoot , if I ever buy any locking knife that clicks, I will return it in a heartbeat. However, I do accept what people have posted here in good faith as what they have experienced, but as kidcongo kidcongo has mentioned, we are all doing different things without any standardization for comparison purposes.
Click to expand...

it really isn’t that there is just some flex in the 31. Yeah, the Inkosi and Zaan has a very little to none which is ok in my mind.

but it’s the excessive degree and variability of the flex that’s cause for concern. It’s just not that I’m pushing harder than the next guy to force it to move.
 
Leslie Tomville said:
...They can’t really go back to the 21 now ...

They really have to stick with the 31...
Click to expand...

Anybody remember "New Coke?"
I think about that every time I come back to this thread. :D

familyphotoshoot said:
I still plan of keeping and using the 31 I hung on to and seeing how it compares to my Inkosi and Zaan after a few months.
Click to expand...

F familyphotoshoot I hope you post back with your comparative experience!

I don't think this thread has completely turned me off to picking up a 31, but I'll be waiting for something that interests me enough to take the plunge. A new CCG perhaps? The one piece inlays aren't enough to make me bite.
 
When I find a left handed plain 31 with boomerang Damascus, I’m jumping on it. I’ve got enough 21’s, regulars, 25’s, Umnumzaan’s, and Inkosi’s that I really don’t need another CRK ever. But, that boomerang is just too tempting not to have.
 
4mer_FMF said:
Anybody remember "New Coke?"
I think about that every time I come back to this thread. :D
.
Click to expand...

1st thing that came to my mind-you take a huge risk screwing with your flagship product, and even if what you replace it with is perfect you are going to get some backlash.
It is certainly humbling to have to backtrack, but sometimes the best decision.
As I said in the feedback thread I would prefer to see the continuance of the Sebenza basically as it was, and the 31 as a stand alone model. If the 31 is worthy, it should be able to stand on it's own without riding on the Sebenza name. But it is up to them, not me
 
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kidcongo said:
I think CRK should put a licensed Cold Steel Tri-Ad Lock on the Sebenza 31 version 2.0 S.W.E. (spine whackers edition) Then issue a statement “there you go knife people......hope you are happy now......have fun spine whacking!”
Click to expand...

I had a similar thought...except mine was...”Cold steel strives for a solid lockup that has no jiggles!” “CRK’s got them hooked, who cares if its got tons of flex!”
 
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