Sebenza 31 Lock Rock?!

[kidcongo]

I just heard about this for the first time so I pulled out the only crk I have left, an old pivot zaan to check. I was not able to induce it by hand but when I did it on the table it flexed a lot. I’ve put mine to good hard use and never had a single issue so this new revelation doesn’t mean much to me.

^^^^ This. All day. #endthread.

 

[Peter Hartwig]

Simply PR is all. What would expect them to say...? Buy or not to buy is the question and up to the individual, and CRK simply doesn’t care who doesn’t as they sell plenty to those who will buy.

At this point it doesn't seem CRK feels the need to come on here and answer a few ?, which I find disappointing. They used social media (BF being a big part) to build this company. Now they can't be bothered. I have to admit that I am less enthused about the company after the thread then before.
As nyefmaker said-they will likely sell plenty of 31's with or without forum members. We know the flex is there(at least on many), so it does come down to a decision to buy or not. You can buy, and decide if you like it or just pass-individual choice. The only thing we likely will learn from the thread at this point is if the knives improve or get worse over time
For me, I may buy one at some time just to see, but I don't need another knife. I have plenty of knives and plenty of Sebenzas. I do resent how lightly they take my support. Action speaks more than a PR release of valuing me as a customer.
all IMO

 

[Mistman68]

Regardless of how one feels about the 'issue' it seems to have changed some opinions. Either you're all in and don't see an issue or you're a bit disillusioned by the not so 'bank vault' lock-up. For me any perceptible blade movement when 'locked-up' isn't acceptable. I do see the flex in my Zaan doing the table dance but I don't feel it when using it , or if I grab the blade and try to torque it around. It may be moving a little but I can't feel it so for me that's locked-up, no perceptible movement. Now if I were to grab the blade and feel it moving while trying to torque it around I wouldn't be happy, wouldn't feel comfortable with it and would consider it less than 'bank vault' tight and sub standard.

My Swish has a long blade and relatively small bearings (not the greatest design) which sort of act like a fulcrum when torquing on the blade. I can see the blade flexing from side to side when opened and I torque on it in my hand but I can't feel any movement, no slop in the lock-up or pivot. It sort of bugs me just 'cause all they needed to do was put in some larger diameter bearings and it would have mitigated some of the movement but it still feels 'locked-up' when using it.

I'm not sure the issue is so much that there is flex in the lock-bar on the 31 but that it seems to be a departure from the percieved 'bank vault' lock-up that CRK has touted for decades. The flex is obviously more exaggerated on the 31 relative to the Inkosi or Zaan, people would have noticed it before. Honestly this issue was brought up not by someone doing the table push but by someone who felt the flex in their hand, the table thing was just to show it's not a new phenomenon. I think most would agree that prior to the suggestion that we 'check' the movement in our CRK's everyone was pretty happy with their knives. Most of us are still pretty happy with them knowing what we know however I'm not sure CRK should get a pass on this one. It seems maybe there's some inconsistency with the 31's which in itself doesn't bode well for CRK as that's not the Reeve's way.

Admittedly I'm a little put off by the 31 and CRK's response. I think they could have done better with both the 31 and their response to it's foibles. By saying it's normal with no plans to update it when there have been some legitimate complaints is puzzling. I think some of the suggestions made in this thread on why it's an issue and how it could be minimized have merit. I can see where CRK doesn't want egg on their face and are just carrying on like none of us really know what we're talking about, they have an image to uphold, they don't want cracks in the facade. I have a feeling that behind the scenes they're probably tightening up the process and maybe being a little more diligent with QC. They have to be aware of this thread but aren't acknowledging it as maybe then they would have to admit there's something to it.

Personally I'm not in any hurry to jump on the 31, I like my 21's, there are still plenty out there to keep me happy. I've gotten so used to the split inlays that the single just seems out of place. I'm sure at some point I'll pick up a 31 but not until I'm convinced it's at least a lateral move from the 21 and not a downgrade.

 

[Sharp & Fiery]

^^^^ This. All day. #endthread.

So you are doing the “table test?”

Again, do you own a 31 yet?

 

[thegamettt]

Just want to clarify that the amount of flex I see, moves the stop pins/thumb studs well less than half a mm off the scale. its probably microns lol. and that's when doing the table test with brute force. so when I said "flexed a lot" I guess that's how it felt without looking at the actual movement. I do agree that a 400 knife should have no blade play, but this isn't the same "blade play" that we're used to discussing. I used to have 4 other CRKs, 25, large 21, and a couple small 21s. When I owned all of them at the same time, I only used the zaan, because I hard use my tools, and I felt it was the most robust of all. Not saying the others aren't capable, but zaan was just better for me. So its not hard to imagine the others probably could be flexed too.
I personally don't have any issue with this "lock flex" and my feelings about CRK have not changed. I will probably still buy a 31 insingo when available. It will probably do the exact same thing as my zaan, and wont bother me at all, unless I can induce it without the "table method"

I do understand from a collector or super enthusiasts pov that a knife this expensive should be perfect, but if my original zaan does this, and has never been noticeable under years of hard use, how many other high end framelocks also do it?

 

[Sharp & Fiery]

Just want to clarify that the amount of flex I see, moves the stop pins/thumb studs well less than half a mm off the scale. its probably microns lol. and that's when doing the table test with brute force. so when I said "flexed a lot" I guess that's how it felt without looking at the actual movement. I do agree that a 400 knife should have no blade play, but this isn't the same "blade play" that we're used to discussing. I used to have 4 other CRKs, 25, large 21, and a couple small 21s. When I owned all of them at the same time, I only used the zaan, because I hard use my tools, and I felt it was the most robust of all. Not saying the others aren't capable, but zaan was just better for me. So its not hard to imagine the others probably could be flexed too.
I personally don't have any issue with this "lock flex" and my feelings about CRK have not changed. I will probably still buy a 31 insingo when available. It will probably do the exact same thing as my zaan, and wont bother me at all, unless I can induce it without the "table method"

I do understand from a collector or super enthusiasts pov that a knife this expensive should be perfect, but if my original zaan does this, and has never been noticeable under years of hard use, how many other high end framelocks also do it?

My Zaan doesnt move with the fingers test...I refuse to do the “table test”, because in my opinion...it’s a pointless test.
My 31’s however (2), move with just my fingers and make a clicking sound...blade coming off the stop pin. There is a ton more EASILY manipulated lockflex on the 31’s. :/ This is very disappointing, as others have pointed out, we are used to the perception of “bank vault” lockup.
I absolutely love my CRK’s, but I’m not gonna come here as a fanboi and shout/repeat to everyone that “this is normal, all framelocks have this phenomina.” Because they don’t. Two totally different types of lock flex.
I dont personally like the table test, because we all could push our knives to the point of lock failure...then what? All knives locks will fail? Yes, of course they will, with enough pressure. My 31’s dont even come close to this kinda pressure, and still flex with clicking.

I do have an issue when someone comes here and starts defending a company, and as of skirting my question, kidcongo probably doesnt even own a 31.

Is it a bad thing that I would like to hold CRK to higher standards?
Is it a bad thing that I would love for them to keep their “bank vault” feel lockup?
Is it a bad thing that I subjectively look at the “lock flex” and why it is possibly happening?
Is it a bad thing that I want to find a solution to this extreme lock flex?

Some people are doers, some people are sheep...
Guess which one I am?

 

[mag1]

none of mine have extreme flex at all, but again, the 31s, 21s, and 25 all have about the same when on the table pushing down with a good amount of pressure.
So why are some 31s having alot, and some arent? same when some knives come with lock stick or off center?

 

[Sharp & Fiery]

none of mine have extreme flex at all, but again, the 31s, 21s, and 25 all have about the same when on the table pushing down with a good amount of pressure.
So why are some 31s having alot, and some arent? same when some knives come with lock stick or off center?

Very good questions.

 

[Leslie Tomville]

Sharp & Fiery , I don’t know if you are a sheep or what you are, but you seem to be way too mentally invested in this so called controversy. You can only speak to what you are experiencing with your 31’s, and we have heard it loud and clear.

The rest of us have to go by what we personally experience with our knives. My 31 is solid, and I recommend that anyone who has an interest in one give it a try themselves rather than rely on the opinions expressed in this thread. If you consider the large number of 31’s that have been sold, it seems that the vast majority of people are happy with their knives. Almost all of the complaints I have read have been here, in this vortex of a thread. Why not just return your two 31’s or sell them if they make you so frustrated? I would have returned mine in a heart beat if I could make it flex and click with normal hand torque.

This is just a product. Some will like it, and some will not. There are many other options. Don’t let it bug you so much.

I agree with you P Peter Hartwig and Mistman68 , CRK should have spoken out in this thread a long time ago. Moderators play an important role on a Forum, and no one seems to be supervising this thread. CRK should end their supported Forum if they are not going to moderate it. This thread is harmful, not only to them, but to us as well.

353 , just read the rest of this page. Do you have a 31?


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[353]

Regardless of how one feels about the 'issue' it seems to have changed some opinions. Either you're all in and don't see an issue or you're a bit disillusioned by the not so 'bank vault' lock-up. For me any perceptible blade movement when 'locked-up' isn't acceptable.

I do see the flex in my Zaan doing the table dance but I don't feel it when using it , or if I grab the blade and try to torque it around. It may be moving a little but I can't feel it so for me that's locked-up, no perceptible movement. Now if I were to grab the blade and feel it moving while trying to torque it around I wouldn't be happy, wouldn't feel comfortable with it and would consider it less than 'bank vault' tight and sub standard.

My Swish has a long blade and relatively small bearings (not the greatest design) which sort of act like a fulcrum when torquing on the blade. I can see the blade flexing from side to side when opened and I torque on it in my hand but I can't feel any movement, no slop in the lock-up or pivot. It sort of bugs me just 'cause all they needed to do was put in some larger diameter bearings and it would have mitigated some of the movement but it still feels 'locked-up' when using it.

I'm not sure the issue is so much that there is a some flex in the lock-bar on the 31 but that it seems to be a departure from the percieved 'bank vault' lock-up that CRK has touted for decades. The flex is obviously more exaggerated on the 31 relative to the Inkosi or Zaan, people would have noticed it before. Honestly this issue was brought up not by people doing the table push but by someone who felt the flex in they're hand, the table thing was just to show it's not a new phenomenon.

I think most would agree that prior to the suggestion that we 'check' the movement in our CRK's everyone was pretty happy with they're knives. Most of us are still pretty happy with them knowing what we know however I'm not sure CRK should get a pass on this one. It seems maybe there's some inconsistency with the 31's which in itself doesn't bode well for CRK as that's not the Reeve's way.

Admittedly I'm a little put off by the 31 and CRK's response. I think they could have done better with both the 31 and they're response to it's foibles. By saying it's normal with no plans to update it when there have been some legitimate complaints is puzzling. I think some of the suggestions made in this thread on why it's an issue and how it could be minimized have merit. I can see where CRK doesn't want egg on their face and are just carrying on like none of us really know what we're talking about, they have an image to uphold, they don't want cracks in the facade.

I have a feeling that behind the scenes they're probably tightening up the process and maybe being a little more diligent with QC. They have to be aware of this thread but aren't acknowledging it as maybe then they would have to admit there's something to it.

Personally I'm not in any hurry to jump on the 31, I like my 21's, there are still plenty out there to keep me happy. I've gotten so used to the split inlays that the single just seems out of place. I'm sure at some point I'll pick up a 31 but not until I'm convinced it's at least a lateral move from the 21 and not a downgrade.

Very nice write up Mistman68 !!

A lot of true words right there..

Took the liberty to add som spaces for sore eyes in my quote..

 

[353]

Sharp & Fiery , I don’t know if you are a sheep or what you are, but you seem to be way too mentally invested in this so called controversy. You can only speak to what you are experiencing with your 31’s, and we have heard it loud and clear.

The rest of us have to go by what we personally experience with our knives. My 31 is solid, and I highly recommend that anyone who has an interest try one out. If you consider the large number of 31’s that have been sold, it seems that the vast majority of people are happy with their knives. Almost all of the complaints I have read have been here, in this vortex of a thread. Why not just return your two 31’s or sell them if they make you so frustrated? You might take a financial loss if yours are as bad as you say, but at least you would be rid of them and the aggravation they cause you. I would certainly have returned mine if I could make it flex and click with normal hand torque.

This is just a product. Some will like it, and some will not. There are many other options. Don’t let it bug you so much.

I agree with you P Peter Hartwig , CRK should have spoken out in this thread a long time ago. They should end their supported Forum if they are not going to moderate it. This thread is harmful, not only to them, but to us as well.


View attachment 1356384

CRK has taken their ol beloved flagship model and somehow managed to screw it up.

Off course people are going to react in a big way....

And I firmly believe that if all the guys out there that have bought the 31's had the info(we are so lucky to have) here in this thread, a LARGE % would have returned the product ASAP and either left CRK completely or hunted down a 21.

And what the hell is this talk about a sheep?!

 

[Sharp & Fiery]

Sharp & Fiery , I don’t know if you are a sheep or what you are, but you seem to be way too mentally invested in this so called controversy. You can only speak to what you are experiencing with your 31’s, and we have heard it loud and clear.

The rest of us have to go by what we personally experience with our knives. My 31 is solid, and I highly recommend that anyone who has an interest try one out. If you consider the large number of 31’s that have been sold, it seems that the vast majority of people are happy with their knives. Almost all of the complaints I have read have been here, in this vortex of a thread. Why not just return your two 31’s or sell them if they make you so frustrated? You might take a financial loss if yours are as bad as you say, but at least you would be rid of them and the aggravation they cause you. I would certainly have returned mine if I could make it flex and click with normal hand torque.

This is just a product. Some will like it, and some will not. There are many other options. Don’t let it bug you so much.

I agree with you P Peter Hartwig and Mistman68 , CRK should have spoken out in this thread a long time ago. Moderators play an important role on a Forum, and no one seems to be supervising this thread. CRK should end their supported Forum if they are not going to moderate it. This thread is harmful, not only to them, but to us as well.


View attachment 1356384

Again...another rude post from you...if you cant tell if Im a sheep or a doer, then its a reason not to trust your judgement on the 31.
Also, I’m not upset or “mentally invested” in the 31 lock flex. I see an “issue” and try to figure out how to fix or make it better. That is how business owners become successful.

What I do get offended by is when people come in here with zero proof of their opinions, and then dont answer a direct question with an easy yes or no answer.

We are adults, and if someone wants skirt my question...then the conversation has gone away from an adult conversation.

I can just leave from this thread...no problem...if thats what people want. Doesnt make a difference to me.

 

[Leslie Tomville]

Oh, I can tell what you are Sharp & Fiery . No worries there. Why don't you go back and look at how many times you have posted in this thread, and the contents of some of those posts, before telling us that you are not rude or upset or obsessed. Also, you have no right to demand that kidcongo , answer your questions. He has been more of an adult than you by far.

You say that when you see an issue, you fix it, because that is how businesses become successful. Well, you are not CRK. They have done well to this point without your assistance, and I suspect they will survive this crisis. Regardless; they made this business decision, and they will have to live with the results.

353 , how can you say that the 31 is screwed up if you do not have one? I agree with Sharp & Fiery on this point; opinions should be based on first hand knowledge. And, by the way, he is the one calling people who do not agree with him sheep.

 

[Sharp & Fiery]

Oh, I can tell what you are Sharp & Fiery . No worries there. Why don't you go back and look at how many times you have posted in this thread, and the contents of some of those posts, before telling us that you are not rude or upset or obsessed. You have no right to demand that kidcongo , answer your questions, and he has been more of an adult than you by far.

353 , how can you say that the 31 is screwed up if you do not have one? I agree with Sharp & Fiery on this point; opinions should be based on first hand knowledge. And, by the way, he is the one calling people who do not agree with him sheep.

Rude - possibly, got suckered into a tiff with a member, which has been apologized for.
Upset - Not at all.
Obsessed - Ummmm....that’s why we are all members of Blade Forums, yes?

Like I have said before, kidcongo I have respect for...Im not “upset” at all. But if we enter a conversation, my hope is if there is a question from one party to the other, it gets answered, not dismissed.

You Leslie Tomville are going to personally attack me now “I know what you are?”.
I do respect opinions, and if your 31 is rock solid as you state...lucky you.
Even if i were to buy another 31 and it turned out to be rock solid...i still would have 2 of 3 with serious lockflex.
You are right...I have posted a lot in this thread, lots of information...lots of insights, and even troubleshooting. Its too bad some only look at them as negative.

All the best to you!
Sharp & Fiery

 

[353]

, how can you say that the 31 is screwed up if you do not have one? I agree with Sharp & Fiery on this point; opinions should be based on first hand knowledge.

I can agree to that on some level, I'm just not very keen on spending 600$ to find out. A LOT of posts in this thread, and also some of the videos showing the play on some specimens, is more than enough evidence for me to stay away from a 31 purchase for now. I am not alone in this.

And, by the way, he is the one calling people who do not agree with him sheep.

I thought I had read every single word in this thread, what # post was that?

 

[kidcongo]

At this point it doesn't seem CRK feels the need to come on here and answer a few ?, which I find disappointing. They used social media (BF being a big part) to build this company. Now they can't be bothered. I have to admit that I am less enthused about the company after the thread then before.
As nyefmaker said-they will likely sell plenty of 31's with or without forum members. We know the flex is there(at least on many), so it does come down to a decision to buy or not. You can buy, and decide if you like it or just pass-individual choice. The only thing we likely will learn from the thread at this point is if the knives improve or get worse over time
For me, I may buy one at some time just to see, but I don't need another knife. I have plenty of knives and plenty of Sebenzas. I do resent how lightly they take my support. Action speaks more than a PR release of valuing me as a customer.
all IMO

I think CRK is wise to stay out of this social media sh*tshow. Like look at me. I note that all of my CRK framelocks exhibit this flex, to varying degrees, which they do, and now rather than being a critic of the company, I’m apparently it’s most loyal defender (to some).

My point from the start is CRK “Bank vault lockup” has always been somewhere between a fallacy and just clever marketing. CRK Knife models we were all perfectly happy with now reveal this flex to us. Maybe the 31 is worse in this regard, maybe it’s better as it’s less likely to actually slip? Personally, I don’t really care.

At a glance, this thread is a couple guys complaining about their knives, rather than selling them, a few people like me who recognize that my existing CRKs all have some degree of “lock rock” when spine whacking, and a buncha people wondering why Bladeforums is the new Facebook.

I don’t own a 31, but look forward to picking one up when they release the Insingo version. I don’t really need any more spear point Sebenzas, but would like a second Large Insingo version with the new inlays.

 

[Sharp & Fiery]

Oh, I can tell what you are Sharp & Fiery . No worries there. Why don't you go back and look at how many times you have posted in this thread, and the contents of some of those posts, before telling us that you are not rude or upset or obsessed. Also, you have no right to demand that kidcongo , answer your questions. He has been more of an adult than you by far.

You say that when you see an issue, you fix it, because that is how businesses become successful. Well, you are not CRK. They have done well to this point without your assistance, and I suspect they will survive this. They made a business decision, and they will have to live with the results.

353 , how can you say that the 31 is screwed up if you do not have one? I agree with Sharp & Fiery on this point; opinions should be based on first hand knowledge. And, by the way, he is the one calling people who do not agree with him sheep.

When did i “demand?” I’ve asked 3 times.

Also, you are correct, I am not CRK...CRK isnt CRK...it is T&ARK. Chris is gone...if we are getting technical here.
Interesting how “they have done well up to this point”, when Chris was at the helm...

 

[Sharp & Fiery]

I think CRK is wise to stay out of this social media sh*tshow. Like look at me. I note that all of my CRK framelocks exhibit this flex, to varying degrees, which they do, and now rather than being a critic of the company, I’m apparently it’s most loyal defender (to some).

My point from the start is CRK “Bank vault lockup” has always been somewhere between a fallacy and just clever marketing. CRK Knife models we were all perfectly happy with now reveal this flex to us. Maybe the 31 is worse in this regard, maybe it’s better as it’s less likely to actually slip? Personally, I don’t really care.

At a glance, this thread is a couple guys complaining about their knives, rather than selling them, a few people like me who recognize that my existing CRKs all have some degree of “lock rock” when spine whacking, and a buncha people wondering why Bladeforums is the new Facebook.

I don’t own a 31, but look forward to picking one up when they release the Insingo version. I don’t really need any more spear point Sebenzas, but would like a second Large Insingo version with the new inlays.

Thanks Kidcongo...
I hope that when you do snag that Insingo 31 it is all you hoped for.

 

[353]

I think CRK is wise to stay out of this social media sh*tshow. Like look at me. I note that all of my CRK framelocks exhibit this flex, to varying degrees, which they do, and now rather than being a critic of the company, I’m apparently it’s most loyal defender (to some).

I think they run a FB page. We should just copy paste this whole thread on there and see what happens!

 

[kidcongo]

I think they run a FB page. We should just copy paste this whole thread on there and see what happens!

I’m going to copy and paste it to the Cold Steel forum. Those fellas, and their fans, like a solid lockup!