Sebenza Overrated?

[JNewell]

Oh to keep on topic, love the Sebbie, certainly not overrated.

Something I have noticed over the years...these Sebenza threads come up all the time, generate massive heat but no light, hundreds of posts that Sebenzas are a waste of money, over-rated, bought by posers, etc. But when people like Thomas or Sal post, they say things like the quote above. Hmmmm...

 

[James Y]

I've owned one Sebenza for over 8 years, a large regular. The only issue I had with it was the out-of-box edge, which I had to thin out considerably. Other than that, I've had zero problems with mine. It remains the most expensive knife I've ever bought up to now, even at its 2002 price.

I have many other knives that cut every bit as well as my Seb. The Seb gives me a peculiar pride of ownership, though. Other knives I own that come close for me are my ZT knives.

If I had to 'bug-out', the Seb is definitely one of the knives I want with me. There is an elegance to simplicity; just what it needs to be and nothing more, with top-of-the-line quality.

That said, it's definitely not for everybody. And NOT because those it isn't for are somehow ignorant. People have different tastes. Only you can decide what you want or don't want, regardless of what is written pro or con on the forums about a particular knife. If you decide it doesn't appeal to you, cross it off your prospective list, move on and appreciate other knives.
Jim

 

[Noctis3880]

Don't bet money on it Jill.

Everything is give and take with steels.

Lower the hardness and you gain toughness and lose edge retention.

Lower the Hardness to make it easier to sharpen and you lose edge retention.

We just can't have our cake and eat it too with steels, it just doesn't work that way.

To gain something we have to give something else up.

Well, I don't think that's strictly true unless it's only limited to one steel. I find that M390 does a good job of pretty much everything(wear resistance, hardness, corrosion resistance, toughness) without giving much up at all. Hell, I could rightly say that M390 would be very capable of replacing S30V as a premium blade steel. I find that some knife makers tend to prefer to keep all or most parts of the knife(particularly blade steel) within the U.S. out of some sense of loyalty and desire to provide work for those at home. So there are definitely better steels in the market that I feel would significantly improve the performance of the Sebenza, but I doubt we'll ever see it in one.

Still, isn't S30V at least somewhat decent at those levels? From what I recall, most makers treat theirs to Rc 57-59, and I'm not sure the Bos treated S30V in my Buck Small Vantage Pro is that much harder. Still seems better than what Benchmade offers. But the big question to me is how hard Strider pushes theirs given that they have equivalent if not more expensive knives in S30V.

 

[Gator97]

But I was still under the impression that only the newer PM steels could be consistently heat treated to Rc 60+ like CTS-XHP, Elmax, M390, ZDP-189, and CPM-M4. At least in a production knife

Not really, good old M2 can go 64-66HRC, D2 64HRC, 1095 65HRC, and M4 isn't new either and before it became CPM M4, it still could be hardened to 65HRC for knives. Some, or bunch of the alloys just entering knives world are not new at all, they're new for production knives, but custom makers have been working with them for a long time, and they have been invented way before that.

Production knives hardness being a lot lower compared to the steel capability IMHO has 2 main reasons:
1) manufacturing costs for the makers, that includes more expensive HT, higher temps, etc, which leads to higher energy costs, more intensive wear on HT equipment, and more expensive HT equipment too, plus grinding/sharpening etc is also more taxing on their tools.
2) Users themselves. It's much easier to break knives with maxed out hardness, chip edges, etc. Nobody wants to deal with that. Plus sharpening those hard knives is more difficult and most of the users don't have sufficient experience or don't want to spend time.

 

[kawr]

Something I have noticed over the years...these Sebenza threads come up all the time, generate massive heat but no light, hundreds of posts that Sebenzas are a waste of money, over-rated, bought by posers, etc. But when people like Thomas or Sal post, they say things like the quote above. Hmmmm...

Takes one to know one . They know exactly what went in to make such high precision, tight tolerances, and flawless f&f tools.

 

[Gator97]

...But when people like Thomas or Sal post, they say things like the quote above. Hmmmm...

Takes one to know one . They know exactly what went in to make such high precision, tight tolerances, and flawless f&f tools.

I don't think Sebenza tolerances and F&F was called into question. Whether it's overrated or not is a matter of opinion and that's all. And there are other makers, just as respected, who know exactly why and how to treat purely cutting optimized S30V knives to 60-62HRC. Just like there are other people who can tell the difference(between 58HRC and 61HRC) and properly utilize those differences in their knives.

If a knife is flawless for you based on those criteria( precision, tolerances, f&f), that's fine, it's worth every penny for you.

For many others, flawless knife means the best performance for its design, in addition to precision, F&F and tight tolerances. And based on those criteria, Sebenza seems to be overrated to thos epeople.
It's very simple. W/o calling each others posers, detractors and other things.

 

[Lycosa]

The Sebenza is one of the finest folders ever designed. That's it.

 

[Ankerson]

Well, I don't think that's strictly true unless it's only limited to one steel. I find that M390 does a good job of pretty much everything(wear resistance, hardness, corrosion resistance, toughness) without giving much up at all. Hell, I could rightly say that M390 would be very capable of replacing S30V as a premium blade steel. I find that some knife makers tend to prefer to keep all or most parts of the knife(particularly blade steel) within the U.S. out of some sense of loyalty and desire to provide work for those at home. So there are definitely better steels in the market that I feel would significantly improve the performance of the Sebenza, but I doubt we'll ever see it in one.

Still, isn't S30V at least somewhat decent at those levels? From what I recall, most makers treat theirs to Rc 57-59, and I'm not sure the Bos treated S30V in my Buck Small Vantage Pro is that much harder. Still seems better than what Benchmade offers. But the big question to me is how hard Strider pushes theirs given that they have equivalent if not more expensive knives in S30V.

M390 and S30V are like apples and oranges here.

M390 is a high carbide steel like S90V, they develop a large percentage of carbides.

M390 isn't exactly cheap or easy to HT so knives in would tend to be more expensive than knives made in S30V.

 

[Josh K]

M390 and S30V are like apples and oranges here.

M390 is a high carbide steel like S90V, they develop a large percentage of carbides.

M390 isn't exactly cheap or easy to HT so knives in would tend to be more expensive than knives made in S30V.

Wow. Suddenly S30V with 1.5% Carbon, 4% Vanadium and 14% Chromium is not a high carbide steel?

 

[risen]

These Sebenza threads always end the same.

To each his/her own. If folks think they're worth the money & hype, cool. It's their money. If others feel they're not worth it, fine.

I'm one of those who don't believe they're worth the price or the hype. They're well-made (yes, I've handled them), I agree, but not $400's worth, imo. I would pay $200 - $250 for a new one, but that's it.

There's a great profit margin on these knives, and as long as folks continue to pay the going rates, and/or more, they'll remain at a premium. I've got no problem with businesses making money. I'm just not going to spend that much on this particular knife. I have been known to spend more for a knife, but that's becoming more & more rare.

Again, to fans, they're worth it. For those who don't drink the kool-aid, they're not. It's not a question of who's right or wrong, but what's right for each person.

Want to spend MSRP, or more, for this knife? Enjoy! I'll enjoy spending my hard-earned money elsewhere.

I've said it before, what impresses me more than this knife is its company's marketing momentum. Excellent! Having so many working toward promoting the brand, free of charge. I love it! This goes way beyond word-of-mouth. So many folks fiercely protecting a brand without pay. LOL!

Sure, they probably do have a vested interest if they're looking to resell their CRKs, especially if it's for profit, but look at the time they're putting in. They've already paid hundreds for this knife. Now, they're going to spend hundreds of hours promoting a company they don't even work for?

Let's see, someone makes $100/hour. They paid $400 for a knife and spent 40 hours over the course of their first year of CRK ownership shoving the brand down other people's throats. $400+($100 X 40)=$4,400. for a Sebenza.

No, no, wait. It gets better. CRK's marketing is so good, it actually encourages people who've already paid hundreds of dollars for these knives to play cop (imo) and report knock-offs. And, guess what, they're actually doing it...for FREE! No reward and/or no discount on future purchases that I know of. No CRK badge. Outstanding!

Hey, I've been been a volunteer before, sure. Worked very hard, free of charge, for all sorts of non-profit causes. Still do. But, work this hard for a money-making business for no pay, after already having paid too much (imo) for one of their knives? I'll pass.

Knife, not worth it. CRK marketing, golden.

 

[Josh K]

These Sebenza threads always end the same.

Says the guy who has been here what, 4 months?

Want to spend MSRP, or more, for this knife? Enjoy! I'll enjoy spending my hard-earned money elsewhere.

I'll spend my hard earned money on products made by hard working people.

I've said it before, what impresses me more than this knife is its company's marketing momentum. Excellent! Having so many working toward promoting the brand, free of charge. I love it! This goes way beyond word-of-mouth. So many folks fiercely protecting a brand without pay. LOL!
<snip>
Knife, not worth it. CRK marketing, golden.

What a load of BS.

 

[risen]

Says the guy who has been here what, 4 months?

LOL! What, someone has to actually be registered here to read the threads? Plus, this isn't the only forum with this topic.

I'll spend my hard earned money on products made by hard working people.

Great. As I've already said, that's cool. We're in agreement.

What a load of BS.

This from a guy with the intelligence to think one has to be registered here to know about all these threads. Too much!

 

[Noctis3880]

M390 and S30V are like apples and oranges here.

M390 is a high carbide steel like S90V, they develop a large percentage of carbides.

M390 isn't exactly cheap or easy to HT so knives in would tend to be more expensive than knives made in S30V.

I'm not entirely convinced that it would be TOO huge a jump in price. The BM 755 MPR and 710-1 both seemed to be fairly reasonably priced at around $180 with a good amount of steel. Of course, those knives don't have an S30V version to compare the prices to, but I'd imagine an M390 Sebenza has maybe a $100 markup at most. Considering how many people pay extra for a bit of wood on the handles, I don't think people would be too stingy about it.

Of course, the preferable solution would not be to eliminate the use of S30V, but to offer multiple steels for the user to choose from.

I was also under the impression that M390 and Elmax were easier to consistently heat treat, whereas S30V was always described as "tricky" to HT(which is consequently why S35VN was made IIRC).

 

[Gator97]

Of course, the preferable solution would not be to eliminate the use of S30V, but to offer multiple steels for the user to choose from.

I doubt there is a need to eliminate S30V. Given better HT it can perform very well.

 

[Jeremy Barnard]

Takes one to know one . They know exactly what went in to make such high precision, tight tolerances, and flawless f&f tools.

Me too. A cnc machine.

 

[Josh K]

Me too. A cnc machine.

So you buy a machine and instantly everything is simple? Wish every knife company knew this!

 

[Robert.B]

Me too. A cnc machine.

Have you used a CNC a day in your life? I'm a machinist, its harder then buying a CNC...the tools and people a company chooses to employ will dictate the final outcome. Tolerenced machining is difficult, regardless of the tools you have...if you hire idiots your get rubbish product.

 

[Jeremy Barnard]

So you buy a machine and instantly everything is simple? Wish every knife company knew this!

I'm not quite sure what you mean. Any knife company with a CNC machine CAN produce a knife with high tolerances. I also don't understand why so many think it is simply amazing that a machine can do this? It makes me laugh.

 

[Josh K]

I'm not quite sure what you mean. Anyone knife company with a CNC machine CAN produce a knife with high tolerances. I also don't understand why so many think it is simply amazing that a machine can do this? It makes me laugh.

Funny, I know makers who produce knives with amazing F&F with the most basic of tools. I have also seen mass produced knives (assuming with CNC mills) that are so poorly put together I'm surprised they even open.

CNC machines aren't magic.

 

[Robert.B]

I'm not quite sure what you mean. Anyone knife company with a CNC machine CAN produce a knife with high tolerances. I also don't understand why so many think it is simply amazing that a machine can do this? It makes me laugh.

You have no idea.