Sebenza Overrated?

[bhyde]

Interesting thread, even though I have only skimmed the last few pages. All this talk of accuracy really has me shaking my head.
I have seen that pictures of measurements taken with calipers is conclusive proof that some products are indeed made to .0005 tolerances. Not the case at all..Calipers are not capable of measuring .0005, even though it appears that they do. ±.001 is the very best accuracy they are capable of as stated by the manufacturer (Mitutoyo website as a reference). Measuring the outside diameter for a .236 ±.0005 part, you would need a minimum of a micrometer that is capable of measuring .0001 such as the digimikes that Mitutoyo makes.
This information is to inform only. Both manufacturers probably have the capability to make parts to .0005 tolerances. I suspect most production manufacturers do.
The importance piece of information that people seem to overlook is the cost involved in the manufacturing process. Most of the machines that are capable of making parts to these tolerances in materials such as Ti (think production levels, running day and night) start at $80k and go up from there. This exampe is for a CNC mill only- Probably still need a CNC lathe, grinders etc to make a decent shop. Now think of all the tooling to outfit this machine, the cutters (endmills, carbide and HSS, drills, taps etc) These tools are expensive and they wear out and break at interval. Not to mention problems with the machine itself that require repair..Crashes, wear etc.

When you are talking about tolerances, and holding them..Cost goes up exponentially. Think those Ti slabs are cheap? Try scrapping one because you had to hold .0005 tolerance on a hole and it is at .0006. (guage pins to check this feature- deltronics is the brand name which are spendy too) Because that part is .0001 out of tolerance, how good do you feel about throwing that piece of Ti in the scrap bucket? Think some of those sneak through? Answer..Yes as the operator is human.

So, with this information, imagine yourself as the owner of any production company making these fine knives..Your employees do NOT make McMinimum..you yourself would hope not to make minimum wage and there certainly be returns because, like everything else, you simply cannot please everybody, there will be warranty issues/returns.

How much would you charge for your intellectual property as well as manufacture that knife to .0005 tolerances?

By the way- I have made some of the parts for CRK in the past when some parts were being made outside of CRK..One part in particular has a tolerance of +.0000 -.0002. (Read this plus nothing, minus two-tenths of a thousandths of an inch.) How many of these do you think went into the trash as they take even a different type of measuring system.


Anyway..food for thought.

 

[Ankerson]

Let's give credit where it's due, shall we?
Spyderco is one of the very few production knife companies that constantly tries new steels and pushes them close to the limits.
CRK, with the exception of BG-42 in the past, constantly uses lower hardness. 58-59HRC for S30V in Sebenza, which is a light use folder, fixed blades - S30V at 55-57HRC, and 55-57 HRC in their A2 steel knives.

I don't think Mr. Glesser said anything about lowering hardness, and if you want to consider production prices, low hardness is cheaper to make, easier to HT, and easier to machine, sharpen, etc.

Sal Glesser is extremely picky about HT and tempering of the steels and is a real steel junky from way back. :thumbup:

They test the heck of the steels to find the best balance of edge holding and toughness for the highest performance.

 

[Cynic2701]

I have the small Sebenza Insingo, and while clearly well and precisely made, I am not convinced that the possible extra precision will make any practical difference over, for example, the quite similarly equipped Spyderco Sage 2 (which I don't have but I examined it, I do have similarly sized Sage 1 and Caly 3 though).

I have a large Sebenza, a Sage 2, and a Caly 3. So our comparisons will be very close. I've also handled about 20-25 small sebenzas.

What I see as advantages of the Sage 2 over the Sebenza are superior ergonomics: I prefer the spyderhole over a thumbstud; and the handholding is simply on another level.

I disagree. I carried a Sage 2 everyday for about three months. I love the knife, but I am forced to admit that the ergonomics literally caused me pain every time I used the Sage 2 for more than 5 minutes. For me, the Sebenza is one of the few knives that is actually comfortable to use for 15 minutes or longer. I have a dedicated left-handed Sebenza: the Sage 2 is right-handed only. I'm ambivalent on hole vs. thud.

What I see as advantages of the Insingo over the Sage 2 is that it's thinner and smaller, making for an unobtrusive carry. There is the possible difference in tolerances, but will this ever result in a practical difference?

Have you ever put a Large Sebenza next to the Sage 2? The Large Sebenza is only a little bit longer, but about 30% slimmer in the pocket. The Sebenza is 11mm thick, the Sage 2 10mm thick. I can hardly notice the 1 mm difference in thickness, but I am very aware of the 30% difference in slimmness.

My Caly 3 has ZDP steel, it's a bit thinner than the Sage 2, and offers the same great ergonomics. In addition, what is better than the 2 above knives, is the carbon fibre handle which feels better in the hand when it's cold outside. The steel keeps an edge even a bit longer as well. One thing where it loses out to the above knives is that when it gets really dirty, it is more annoying to clean than the open framelocks.

My Caly 3 also has ZDP steel--and I find the Caly 3 to also have excellent ergonomics. If you are using your knife when it is cold outside, either you should be wearing a glove, or it isn't actually that cold outside. When temperatures are above 20 degrees F it's not that cold. When temperatures are below 0 degrees F, it is cold--and you should seriously be considering wearing gloves in order to not get frostbite. Yes, ZDP-189 holds a better edge, but I've straightened rolls out of my Sebenza's "soft" S30V that would have chipped out other, harder, steels. The Caly 3 has pinned construction, you can't really take it apart to clean it at all. The Sage 2 has four pins connecting both handle slabs, the Sebenza has three.

Going back to precision and finish,my Klotzlis are similarly priced to Sebenza. They offer the same manic attention to detail and precision as a Sebenza. They have "only" a well-adjusted liner lock, meaning they are perfect for pure cutting tasks, and a bit less heavy duty than a framelock. But where they are clearly better than the Sebenza is the finish of their titanium handles: typically they mix polished and sandblasted areas in the same handle, the screws are nicely flush with the handle, the handles usually are visually more interesting with holes or nice and precise inlays.
I can see myself selling my Insingo one day, good though it is; but I can't see myself selling my Klotzlis.

I've handled some Klotzlis, but I never liked them. At the very least, they seemed more like very nice gentleman's knives--and they are, truly, very nice. But here, it would be better to compare Klotzlis to Mnandi's or the like. I wouldn't be using a Klotzlis for anything near the use that I use my Sebenza or Umnumzaan for.

I'm sure I could start talking about phenomenal and noumenal perceptions, and everybody would start hating on me again.

But, let me offer an opinion the exact opposite of yours. I'm glad that you like Klotzlis, IMO they are an under-represented knife brand.

 

[kawr]

Interesting thread, even though I have only skimmed the last few pages. All this talk of accuracy really has me shaking my head.
I have seen that pictures of measurements taken with calipers is conclusive proof that some products are indeed made to .0005 tolerances. Not the case at all..Calipers are not capable of measuring .0005, even though it appears that they do. ±.001 is the very best accuracy they are capable of as stated by the manufacturer (Mitutoyo website as a reference). Measuring the outside diameter for a .236 ±.0005 part, you would need a minimum of a micrometer that is capable of measuring .0001 such as the digimikes that Mitutoyo makes.
This information is to inform only. Both manufacturers probably have the capability to make parts to .0005 tolerances. I suspect most production manufacturers do.
The importance piece of information that people seem to overlook is the cost involved in the manufacturing process. Most of the machines that are capable of making parts to these tolerances in materials such as Ti (think production levels, running day and night) start at $80k and go up from there. This exampe is for a CNC mill only- Probably still need a CNC lathe, grinders etc to make a decent shop. Now think of all the tooling to outfit this machine, the cutters (endmills, carbide and HSS, drills, taps etc) These tools are expensive and they wear out and break at interval. Not to mention problems with the machine itself that require repair..Crashes, wear etc.

When you are talking about tolerances, and holding them..Cost goes up exponentially. Think those Ti slabs are cheap? Try scrapping one because you had to hold .0005 tolerance on a hole and it is at .0006. (guage pins to check this feature- deltronics is the brand name which are spendy too) Because that part is .0001 out of tolerance, how good do you feel about throwing that piece of Ti in the scrap bucket? Think some of those sneak through? Answer..Yes as the operator is human.

So, with this information, imagine yourself as the owner of any production company making these fine knives..Your employees do NOT make McMinimum..you yourself would hope not to make minimum wage and there certainly be returns because, like everything else, you simply cannot please everybody, there will be warranty issues/returns.

How much would you charge for your intellectual property as well as manufacture that knife to .0005 tolerances?

By the way- I have made some of the parts for CRK in the past when some parts were being made outside of CRK..One part in particular has a tolerance of +.0000 -.0002. (Read this plus nothing, minus two-tenths of a thousandths of an inch.) How many of these do you think went into the trash as they take even a different type of measuring system.


Anyway..food for thought.

Great post. I think this is pretty much spot on. Having the machinery and capabilities to produce knives with .0005'' tolerances is NOT the same as actually producing knives with those tolerances on a production level. There's a reason why CRK doesnt mass produce his products. It just wouldnt be possible. Most companies would rather increase production, lower tolerances, and keep price cheap because that appeals to a larger consumer base. Nothing wrong with that and most people wouldnt be able to tell the differance in tolerances to begin with.

Honestly I find it hard to stomach that people will choose to ignore logic, ignore other knifemakers, ignore other people's preferances and choose to bash something they have zero knowledge of. How can you give a complete assessment on something if your only experience with it is by looking at it, smelling it but yet never actually tasting it. You can look at the price tag of something and say no matter how good this is its not worth buying for me and that would be just fine. Its not ok when people say things like a product is overrated and that there are other products that are just as good at a fraction of the cost. One can certainly argue that other knives offer far more bang for your buck and I would agree. Saying you get the same consistent .0005'' tolerances on mass produced production knives as you would on a Sebenza is just proving ignorance. Anyway I'm done here, have a great sunday and holiday folks.

 

[Gator97]

Interesting thread, even though I have only skimmed the last few pages. All this talk of accuracy really has me shaking my head.
I have seen that pictures of measurements taken with calipers is conclusive proof that some products are indeed made to .0005 tolerances. Not the case at all..Calipers are not capable of measuring .0005, even though it appears that they do. ±.001 is the very best accuracy they are capable of as stated by the manufacturer (Mitutoyo website as a reference). Measuring the outside diameter for a .236 ±.0005 part, you would need a minimum of a micrometer that is capable of measuring .0001 such as the digimikes that Mitutoyo makes.

Excellent point. I believe the digital calipers used in this measurements were Mitutoyo 500 series.
According to manufacturer, accuracy for various models in the series varies from 0.001" to 0.003" - reference link to specs.

 

[Gator97]

Honestly I find it hard to stomach that people will choose to ignore logic,

No, me thinks, you have hard time to stomach different opinion from yours. That's all.

ignore other knifemakers,

No, you do ignore all other makers, or pick only the parts that you need...

ignore other people's preferances

Why exactly should I consider your preferences when choosing MY knives? Are you paying for them, or are you going to maintain them or what? It's entirely up to an individual whether or not he/she considers other people's preferences when making a decision. Get real.

How can you give a complete assessment on something if your only experience with it is by looking at it, smelling it but yet never actually tasting it.

Yet, I bet, you yourself have done it countless times. According to you theoretical physics shouldn't exist, or any religion for that matter. And to be precise, what was given was an opinion why the knife is overrated, not the "complete assessment", once again, you are twisting the facts to fit your agenda.

Its not ok when people say things like a product is overrated and that there are other products that are just as good at a fraction of the cost.

Why is that anyway? It's their opinion and that's it. Just because you think otherwise doesn't mean they have to think the same.

One can certainly argue that other knives offer far more bang for your buck and I would agree.

But for someone to consider Sebenza not so superior is not acceptable for you?

Saying you get the same consistent .0005'' tolerances on mass produced production knives as you would on a Sebenza is just proving ignorance.

Yeah Why don't you do the measurements with more accurate than 0.001 calipers to bring that proof you have been posting all night.

 

[JNewell]

Let's give credit where it's due, shall we?
Spyderco is one of the very few production knife companies that constantly tries new steels and pushes them close to the limits.

Kinda OT in this thread (maybe ), but this is clearly true. Kershaw is probably next but some distance back, and off the top of my head no one else is close, and that - combined with Spyderco's attention to good heat treatment - puts them in a special category. You could easily go broke trying to keep up with Sal Glesser's steel experiments.

 

[walleyeguy7]

yes it is an amazing knife, but overrated no doubt

 

[JNewell]

yes it is an amazing knife, but overrated no doubt

I assume you mean that you have no doubt, not that there is no possibility of doubt?

 

[Trent Rock]

*sigh....I'll try this once more. You can get a very nice Spyderco or benchmade for less then half the price of the sebenzas. These BM and spydercos use virtually the same materials as a sebenza some even use a better steel. They both have very good ff, lockup, tolerances, no blade play, etc. So what makes the Sebenza worth more.

You are using the Intrinsic Theory of Value to gauge the "value" of a Sebenza
That is the old way

An intrinsic theory of value (also called theory of objective value) is any theory of value in economics which holds that the value of an object, good or service, is intrinsic or contained in the item itself. Most such theories look to the process of producing an item, and the costs involved in that process, as a measure of the item's intrinsic value.

The new way is The Subjective Theory of Value

The subjective theory of value (or theory of subjective value) is an economic theory of value that identifies worth as being based on the wants and needs of the members of a society, as opposed to value being inherent to an object.
It holds that to possess value an object must be both useful and scarce,[citation needed] with the extent of that value dependent upon the ability of an object to satisfy the wants of any given individual.
"Value" here is partially separate from exchange value or price, except insofar as the latter is intended to help identify the former; the value of any good or service simply being whatever someone would trade for it.
The theory recognizes that one thing may be more useful in satisfying the wants of one person than another, or of no use to one person and of use to another.[1] The theory contrasts with intrinsic theories of value that hold that there is an objectively correct value of an object that can be determined irrespective of individual value judgements, such as by analyzing the amount of labor incurred in producing the object (see labor theory of value).

The Sebenza is worth more because the DEMAND for a Sebenza is more than a BM
NOT because the materials are better or worse

Do you always base your valuation of a product on the materials used?
What if the good uses cheap materials and is a fad (high demand)?
You think they should keep the cost low and ignore the fad/hype/excessive demand?
That makes no sense............

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pet_Rock

in 1975, Dahl established Rock Bottom Productions, a company that sold the rocks for US$3.95 each

What price would you put on a simple rock??

 

[Gator97]

Kinda OT in this thread (maybe ), but this is clearly true.

Well, reference to Sal's earlier post was made by CRK fans numerous times, without ever(!) mentioning the simple and well known fact that Spyderco spends much more time and money refining HT. If anything, this is unfair.

If Spyderco made 0.0005 tolerance knife and it still had Spyderco HT, at the same price with Sebenza, that wouldn't be the same as Sebenza, it would be a better knife at the same price.

 

[Ankerson]

If Spyderco made 0.0005 tolerance knife and it still had Spyderco HT, at the same price with Sebenza, that wouldn't be the same as Sebenza, it would be a better knife at the same price.

And you would be 100% correct in that statement. :thumbup:

A model that is refined that much and with a premium HT would be the complete package and well worth every cent of that price.

 

[Gator97]

I have to admit, all those economic theories are way above my head. However...

...
The Sebenza is worth more because the DEMAND for a Sebenza is more than a BM
NOT because the materials are better or worse

That's obvious. I assume fad/marketing do fit somewhere in there right? Those don't go against theories.

Do you always base your valuation of a product on the materials used?

Hmm, dunno about always, but it's significant part, materials used, performance, which in turn is based on materials.
Anyway, do you always ignore materials om your valuation of a product?
What if the material used in the product prohibits the level of performance that you are willing to accept as a minimum for a given price, and at the same time you are able to ignore the fad surrounding the product?
No doubt, fad plays huge role in price/demand, but there are a lot of people in any environment that can ignore it, I assume you agree on that.
And there always are a lot of people interested in the said fad to keep going, I mean ppl outside of the company producing the product.

 

[Gator97]

A model that is refined that much and with a premium HT would be the complete package and well worth every cent of that price.

Well, apparently not for everyone knife performance is all that important. That's fine, by the way, to each his own, but starting flame war and personal insults based on "how can you not agree with my preferences" definitely is not contributing anything positive.

 

[Ankerson]

Well, apparently not for everyone knife performance is all that important. That's fine, by the way, to each his own, but starting flame war and personal insults based on "how can you not agree with my preferences" definitely is not contributing anything positive.

Yeah I just don't get the personal insults and attacks at all...

It's only a knife in the end.

 

[5.56]

From my experience, it's not overrated, and it's worth every penny of the $385

 

[Noctis3880]

Well, reference to Sal's earlier post was made by CRK fans numerous times, without ever(!) mentioning the simple and well known fact that Spyderco spends much more time and money refining HT. If anything, this is unfair.

If Spyderco made 0.0005 tolerance knife and it still had Spyderco HT, at the same price with Sebenza, that wouldn't be the same as Sebenza, it would be a better knife at the same price.

Truly, but I'm not sure that would make it more desirable. I mean, I'm more than satisfied with my Para2 in S90V and Carbon Fiber. I don't believe fit and finish would ever be a criticism for that knife. If there was ever a downside, it would be that those knives aren't in full production.

I don't believe Sal is interested in making a high dollar 0.0005 tolerance knife. He just seems to want to make quality tools for the working man. Though the thought of a Para2 in full titanium handles, CTS-20CP, and Sebenza level of fit and finish does make my mouth water.

 

[Ankerson]

Truly, but I'm not sure that would make it more desirable. I mean, I'm more than satisfied with my Para2 in S90V and Carbon Fiber. I don't believe fit and finish would ever be a criticism for that knife. If there was ever a downside, it would be that those knives aren't in full production.

I don't believe Sal is interested in making a high dollar 0.0005 tolerance knife. He just seems to want to make quality tools for the working man. Though the thought of a Para2 in full titanium handles, CTS-20CP, and Sebenza level of fit and finish does make my mouth water.

Do you know how expensive that knife would be....

I am guessing it would be a lot more than $385... A lot more....

 

[BBQ BOY]

If Spyderco made their knives to the tolerances as CRK's then I would be all over Spyderco more than I am now.
I love my CRK's. Very comfortable to me and I like the simplicity of the knives. I Especially love the fact that I can take them apart without voiding the warranty.
Also, I am not just buying the knife but I am buying the man and company. Mr. Glessnar and Mr. Reeve's are industry leaders in my book and exceptional people.
I would love it if Spyderco made their knives to CRK's level. It would be truly amazing since Spyderco are always breaking ground implementing materials and designs combined.
Maybe we should start a petition to ask Spyderco to do a once a year High end knife to be on par with CRK's build. I would pay $400. Probably not cost feasible for Spyderco though.
So to answer the question if the Sebenza is overrated. No. Given the cost of materials and materials used with sue high tolerances I think not. I do wish the S30V Mr. Reeves used was higher in RC or switch to a more durable steel with longer edge retention.

 

[RevDevil]

If Spyderco made their knives to the tolerances as CRK's then I would be all over Spyderco more than I am now.
I love my CRK's. Very comfortable to me and I like the simplicity of the knives. I Especially love the fact that I can take them apart without voiding the warranty.
Also, I am not just buying the knife but I am buying the man and company. Mr. Glessnar Mr. Glesser and Mr. Reeve's are industry leaders in my book and exceptional people.
I would love it if Spyderco made their knives to CRK's level. It would be truly amazing since Spyderco are always breaking ground implementing materials and designs combined.
Maybe we should start a petition to ask Spyderco to do a once a year High end knife to be on par with CRK's build. I would pay $400. Probably not cost feasible for Spyderco though.
So to answer the question if the Sebenza is overrated. No. Given the cost of materials and materials used with sue high tolerances I think not. I do wish the S30V Mr. Reeves used was higher in RC or switch to a more durable steel with longer edge retention.

Minor correction

I would be interested in this too. Given the design and materials I would be more than happy to purchase something in this price range. I guess it would be possible if it is presented to SPyderco in such a way that outlines benefits for both the user and the manufacturer themselves. This is a really good idea :thumbup:

This would be awesome, again I would be down for this as well. :thumbup: