Sebenza Overrated?

[RevDevil]

Check it...

 

[100eyes]

*sigh....I'll try this once more. You can get a very nice Spyderco or benchmade for less then half the price of the sebenzas. These BM and spydercos use virtually the same materials as a sebenza some even use a better steel. They both have very good ff, lockup, tolerances, no blade play, etc. So what makes the Sebenza worth more. It will be a few days before bm responds to the tolerance question. However besides that I think the bm and spydercos are very tight knives and I don't see the .0005 making much a difference seeing as they are already damn near vault like. What is your opinion on this?

This "concept" was explained very well to me by someone back when I collected expensive headphones.

There would often be questions like "Are expensive headphones worth two, three times the cost of another when they seem to sound only a bit better? Is spending a hundred dollars to upgrade the headphone cable actually worth it?"

It comes down to "potential gain" and "negligible difference".

You are on the side of negligible difference, you believe that the small difference in quality is not worth the large extra cost, especially when you're already satisfied with the quality. I totally understand that point of view. "Sometimes the cup is half-full, half-empty, or twice as big as it needs to be."

I do hope you try to understand the "potential gain" side of things though. Yes, it costs a lot more, but there's something about knowing you have the best. A perspective that cost isn't an issue for something you love and you'd happily spend whatever it takes to know what you own is as good as it can be, even if that difference is so small most would not even notice.

It's not like anyone is saying the typical production knife is bad in quality. It's specifically because production knives around $200 are already so good that it costs so much more to actually spend time making something better.

S30V might cost double what 440C costs, but is it twice as good? Not really, most people wouldn't even know the difference unless it was marked on the blade, but it's knowing that the difference is there that counts.

When I got my first Sebenza, I wasn't immediately impressed. Even after a few days I wasn't convinced there was a noticeable difference compared to the average production knife. It was only after the first time I took it apart and put it back together I noticed the "magic"; the incredible tolerances, impeccable fit and finish, the genius of the overall design and how everything came together. This is why many people think ownership is crucial to form a complete opinion.

If anyone considers themselves a "knife nut", there's no reason not to give the Sebenza a try. I've heard people who have tried a Sebenza say 'it's not for me', but only a true idiot would say 'this isn't a great knife'. At worst you lose a few bucks flipping the Sebbie, but you had a chance to experience for yourself what all the fuss is about and broaden your own perspective.

"A hundred travel books aren't worth one real trip."

 

[338375]

i am not sad about anything. you have in fact spent the last several pages attempting to discredit the knife.

to which spydercos and benchmades are you referring?

what kind of facts would you like? you have already ignored statements made by thomas (in this thread) and sal (not in this thread). your opinion has been predetermined.

but anyway:
-crk encourages you to disassemble your knife to care for it. they even include the hex key. with many other companies this will void your warranty (and who could blame them, really?).
-heat treated lock face. who else does that?
-blade to handle ratio is better than any knife i have ever owned or seen.
-hold their value as well or better than almost every other knife.
-each knife is hand fitted.
-best clip design, pretty much ever.
-pivot bushing. the pivot is tightened all the way, the bushing prevents the scales from pinching the blade. try this with your folders and the blade wont move at all.
-screws are interchangeable (except clip screw) and use the same size hex key. all my other folders have at least two different sized screw heads, some have three.

not everything is simply the sum of its parts. i find the sebenza to be simple and elegant, strong and durable. it is the pinnacle in the exercise of design and execution.

This thread wasn't a total waste of time. I just learned a couple things about the Sebbie that I didn't know. :thumbup:

 

[Jeremy Barnard]

This "concept" was explained very well to me by someone back when I collected expensive headphones.

There would often be questions like "Are expensive headphones worth two, three times the cost of another when they seem to sound only a bit better? Is spending a hundred dollars to upgrade the headphone cable actually worth it?"

It comes down to "potential gain" and "negligible difference".

You are on the side of negligible difference, you believe that the small difference in quality is not worth the large extra cost, especially when you're already satisfied with the quality. I totally understand that point of view. "Sometimes the cup is half-full, half-empty, or twice as big as it needs to be."

I do hope you try to understand the "potential gain" side of things though. Yes, it costs a lot more, but there's something about knowing you have the best. A perspective that cost isn't an issue for something you love and you'd happily spend whatever it takes to know what you own is as good as it can be, even if that difference is so small most would not even notice.

It's not like anyone is saying the typical production knife is bad in quality. It's specifically because production knives around $200 are already so good that it costs so much more to actually spend time making something better.

S30V might cost double what 440C costs, but is it twice as good? Not really, most people wouldn't even know the difference unless it was marked on the blade, but it's knowing that the difference is there that counts.

When I got my first Sebenza, I wasn't immediately impressed. Even after a few days I wasn't convinced there was a noticeable difference compared to the average production knife. It was only after the first time I took it apart and put it back together I noticed the "magic"; the incredible tolerances, impeccable fit and finish, the genius of the overall design and how everything came together. This is why many people think ownership is crucial to form a complete opinion.

If anyone considers themselves a "knife nut", there's no reason not to give the Sebenza a try. I've heard people who have tried a Sebenza say 'it's not for me', but only a true idiot would say 'this isn't a great knife'. At worst you lose a few bucks flipping the Sebbie, but you had a chance to experience for yourself what all the fuss is about and broaden your own perspective.

"A hundred travel books aren't worth one real trip."

I understand exactly what you mean. I appreciate your reply. Thanks.

 

[Dagon]

I have the small Sebenza Insingo, and while clearly well and precisely made, I am not convinced that the possible extra precision will make any practical difference over, for example, the quite similarly equipped Spyderco Sage 2 (which I don't have but I examined it, I do have similarly sized Sage 1 and Caly 3 though).

What I see as advantages of the Sage 2 over the Sebenza are superior ergonomics: I prefer the spyderhole over a thumbstud; and the handholding is simply on another level.

What I see as advantages of the Insingo over the Sage 2 is that it's thinner and smaller, making for an unobtrusive carry. There is the possible difference in tolerances, but will this ever result in a practical difference?

My Caly 3 has ZDP steel, it's a bit thinner than the Sage 2, and offers the same great ergonomics. In addition, what is better than the 2 above knives, is the carbon fibre handle which feels better in the hand when it's cold outside. The steel keeps an edge even a bit longer as well. One thing where it loses out to the above knives is that when it gets really dirty, it is more annoying to clean than the open framelocks.

Going back to precision and finish,my Klotzlis are similarly priced to Sebenza. They offer the same manic attention to detail and precision as a Sebenza. They have "only" a well-adjusted liner lock, meaning they are perfect for pure cutting tasks, and a bit less heavy duty than a framelock. But where they are clearly better than the Sebenza is the finish of their titanium handles: typically they mix polished and sandblasted areas in the same handle, the screws are nicely flush with the handle, the handles usually are visually more interesting with holes or nice and precise inlays.
I can see myself selling my Insingo one day, good though it is; but I can't see myself selling my Klotzlis.

 

[TUF]

The difference between a BM, Spyderco, and a Sebenza shows when you have used one for a few years. The Sebenza still performs like it did the day you bought it. The others not so much. Even with light daily use in the field the G10 won't be anything like new, Screws don't hold very well or are stripped.

But really if you prefer one of the others there is nothing wrong with them they are great knives too. But they aren't in the same class as a Sebenza, a Terzuola, or similiar high end knives made to be used daily for years and years.

 

[risen]

perhaps, but saying it should cost less because of x, y, or z, is bs.

Well, not if that opinion is coming from a consumer standpoint. Then, anyone who wishes is entitled to feel a certain way, including if one doesn't believe a CRK is worth MSRP, for whatever reason.

jiggy is not a credible source, thomas w. and sal glesser are, and crk competitors are saying it is priced correctly (among other glowing comments).

I don't believe the OP's question was aimed at experts and/or colleagues in the industry. It was aimed at consumers/buyers. To me, that means everyone should feel free to share their own opinion without having to feel they have to justify how they stand.

right, so "worth" really isn't a valid term here, for you at least. you don't like it because its ugly, too small, too large, whatever. personal preference, is by definition, subjective and personal. eg, if you (or anyone) says "it just doesn't feel right in my hand", then there is nothing anyone can say to change that.

But, it does go to whether or not one believes the knife is worth the price for that particular individual. If one doesn't have a personal preference for a Sebenza, it won't be "worth" the price to him/her.

Look, this whole thread didn't have to be that difficult. Simply put, the Sebenza isn't going to appeal to everyone at CRK's price point, as much as they probably would like it to be so.

Unfortunately, some got sucked in and/or detoured by the usual tactics. Once that momentum gets going, it's difficult to get back on track.

agreed. my point was what you see as a good value may be very different for someone else.

Again, we've come full circle and are in complete agreement. And, it's something that was repeatedly touched on, but was muted, throughout this thread. My initial post was in harmony with this, before I went into CRK's marketing prowess, that is.

Whew! Man, Sebenza & Sanrenmu push so many buttons. LOL! They conjure up so many straw arguments. I might've chimed in once or twice on a few of Brennanscott's comments, but I just can't differ with Gary Busey, hehe.

Personally, I'm used to dogpiles (not that you were a part of that, MORIMOTOM, and a few others). I know how to pace things out, separate the herd, and stay on point, even if/when the rest turns to chaos. That doesn't mean what I actually say will get noticed. Still, I feel good knowing I didn't get sucked in/deterred.

Gentelmen, and Ladies, it's been a pleasure. MORIMOTOM, sir, as always, thank you for the discourse.

Spark, thank you for not shutting us down. I really appreciate it.

You know, to show there are no hard feelings, I think I'm going to offer my own giveaway, if that's okay. It won't be a Sebenza, but I think it'll be nice. It's one of my few left overs from some stuff I had up for trade a while back.

Tomorrow, I'll ask on how/where to post, and we'll kick it off. Btw, if allowed, it'll only be for folks who participated in this thread (got that idea from the current ZT-0551 giveaway for the ZT-0550 thread).

Thanks again, all. Have a good night.

Peace!

risen

 

[Medic1210]

The difference between a BM, Spyderco, and a Sebenza shows when you have used one for a few years. The Sebenza still performs like it did the day you bought it. The others not so much. Even with light daily use in the field the G10 won't be anything like new, Screws don't hold very well or are stripped.

Interesting. You must have missed or simply ignored my comment a couple pages back stating the condition my BM 806D2 is in after 10 years of regular use. My BM 943 is the same way, and I got those knives at the same time. Only thing that would tell you my 806 is old is the amount of scuff marks on the BK coated blade. My 943's green scales are a bit scuffed, and the purple annodized back spacer is fading to a more gold color, but other than that, they function as well as they did the day I purchased them and that's after daily flicking of the blade too. Oh, and none of my screws are loose or stripped either. I also have a BM921 that was purchased around the same time as well, but honestly, it's not seen nearly the amount of use as the other two I mentioned, simply because I find it a bit too thin and lightweight for serious use. I now have a Kulgera, Rift, 710 and Sequel in the family, so time will tell how long they hold up. I can't imagine they'll wear out any time soon.

 

[jill jackson]

If you are picky and want a flawless knife, it's very hard to do better than CR's knives. They constantly come out of the box, flawless. That's been my experience with them.

Even other brands, I've bought costing the same price have a little mark in the blade, if you look hard enough. (nothing horrible just you can find a small scratch, or rub here and there, if you look hard in the right light) So, if you are picky it's hard to beat CR's!

 

[jill jackson]

This last one I bought, was flawless. I looked it over carefully and nothing, very rare to get knives so consistent at any price point.

 

[JNewell]

I don't have a problem with folks who have tried a Sebenza and have decided they did not care for it.

I don't have a problem with folks who won't buy a Sebenza because it's too pricey for them.
Heck. I better not. I fall into that category myself. Too much money for me to spend on a knife. But that doesn't make it overpriced. It just makes it priced higher than I am willing to spend.

I do have a problem with folks who decide sight unseen that the Sebenza is not worth the price.

I have an even bigger problem with folks who are ignorant of manufacturing costs, but by plucking a supposed cost from the ether, are certain that somebody is making a huge markup on their product.

Sadly, I must inform you that in this case, you have a big problem. I recommend not reading further in this thread.

 

[JNewell]

Sal Glesser has posted that Spyderco doesn't even try to match Chris Reeve's tolerances. Based on the crate of Benchmades I own, Benchmade doesn't, either.

I've not threatened anybody, just curious to see if they would say the same thing to me face to face instead of hiding behind a keyboard. Secondly, I'm not a liar. I'm posting exactly what Benchmade claims, and thirdly, you're twisting my words and putting words in my mouth to try and prove your point. Nowhere have I said a $100 BM was on par to a Sebenza in Quality. I merely stated that Benchmades are manufactured on machinery just like CRK that gives tolerances of 0.0005" which has already been covered a few posts back. I never stated or indicated I thought CRK is a fraud, and I never accused Sal or Thomas of lying like you're doing to me. You've proven you let your emotions affect your participation in a debate, so until you calm down and stop calling names and twisting words, don't bother responding to me.

 

[JNewell]

Good points nicely stated.

Consider what people like Sal and Thomas have said about CRK.

It is amazing that these threads go on, and then get resurrected in new threads on the same old topic.

i am not sad about anything. you have in fact spent the last several pages attempting to discredit the knife.

to which spydercos and benchmades are you referring?

what kind of facts would you like? you have already ignored statements made by thomas (in this thread) and sal (not in this thread). your opinion has been predetermined.

but anyway:
-crk encourages you to disassemble your knife to care for it. they even include the hex key. with many other companies this will void your warranty (and who could blame them, really?).
-heat treated lock face. who else does that?
-blade to handle ratio is better than any knife i have ever owned or seen.
-hold their value as well or better than almost every other knife.
-each knife is hand fitted.
-best clip design, pretty much ever.
-pivot bushing. the pivot is tightened all the way, the bushing prevents the scales from pinching the blade. try this with your folders and the blade wont move at all.
-screws are interchangeable (except clip screw) and use the same size hex key. all my other folders have at least two different sized screw heads, some have three.

not everything is simply the sum of its parts. i find the sebenza to be simple and elegant, strong and durable. it is the pinnacle in the exercise of design and execution.

 

[JNewell]

The fact that people will argue, or debate an issue with those that are making and selling the knives, really proves a lack of intelligence. They are looking more to argue than discuss knives IMO.

This thread has gotten so far off track, it really does belong in W&C.

Where's the :giggle: smilie, or the :bullseye: smilie?

 

[JNewell]

deleted, never mind...

 

[timcsaw]

I like cheese. Swiss cheese in particular.

PS. As soon as I get 'em, I like to put all of my knives under an electron microscope and do a close inspection and I'm always disappointed in the finish on all of them... they all look... well... kinda' "scratchy" an' stuff... and don't even get me started on the so called "sharp" blade edge. Looks like the Himalayas!

 

[Gator97]

Sadly, I must inform you that in this case, you have a big problem. I recommend not reading further in this thread.

I must ask you, does the "must use to have opinion" rule apply exclusively to Sebenza, or it's more broad? If later, I believe you have done the same thing many times. all of us do.

Anyway, it's pretty simple, let's say a sebenza was made of 440A steel blade, and other inexpensive materials, but still with the same 0.0005 precision.
To make it easier, let's say it's not a sebenza, since apparently the name stirs too many emotions, but a folder of a similar design, with even better, 0.0003 precision, $400 price tag.
Would you still need to handle it to form an opinion that it is overpriced? Some certainly would.

For other people, who have not handled it, the specs are still available, i.e. Ti handles, S30V steel, 57-59HRC, etc, including tolerances, and based on that data they consider it overpriced.

Why exactly would you or anyone else have problem with that...

 

[jakeyjake4528]

Yes, this is true. I am still waiting for someone with enough balls to even begin to challenge my argument. So far they have all stuck to their hate and bad tempers. Disturbed human beings who resort to personal attacks when half witted comments don't work. Such happens with cowards who do nothing but put out filth and hateful rhetoric. Makes me sick to live in the same country as these few people.

its funny, ive asked you a few times to explain away why both sal and thomas say the price point of a sebenza is right where it should be. sal has even said if he made his knives as CRK makes them, they would cost just the same.

ive asked this without any temper, insults. its simple, show how you know more about knife manufacter then sal and thomas. show how both of them are mistaken when they say the cost of CRK products are RIGHT WHERE THEY SHOULD BE.

i dont really expect an answer from you, because this is one argument that you can not win.

if you do answer, you sure as heck wont answer this question, made very simple, going right along with what youve claimed...

why are sal and thomas mistaken, and why is jiggy right?

 

[Gator97]

If you are picky and want a flawless knife, it's very hard to do better than CR's knives. They constantly come out of the box, flawless.
...
So, if you are picky it's hard to beat CR's!

Not really, your comment is valid if you rephrase "if you are picky about F&F and tolerances".
It is more than obvious that there is more than F&F and tight tolerances to knife requirements.
A knife is a tool designed to cut. Edge holding is important, to various degree for different people, but it still is. And in that department, S30V at 57-59HRC isn't the best and it's not hard at all to do better than that, either with another alloy, or even with the same S30V.
It's pretty much the same as buying 40000$ watch that measures time with few seconds off daily because some parts in it are not as good.

So, again, "flawless" for some people means 0.0005 tolerance, and that's fine, other people want better characteristics of the blade steel and then Sebenza isn't the best choice.

OP asked opinions about why some do not consider Sebenza the best. There are reasons for that, and just excellent F&F and tight tolerances are not enough.

 

[Gator97]

its funny, ive asked you a few times to explain away why both sal and thomas say the price point of a sebenza is right where it should be. sal has even said if he made his knives as CRK makes them, they would cost just the same.

Let's give credit where it's due, shall we?
Spyderco is one of the very few production knife companies that constantly tries new steels and pushes them close to the limits.
CRK, with the exception of BG-42 in the past, constantly uses lower hardness. 58-59HRC for S30V in Sebenza, which is a light use folder, fixed blades - S30V at 55-57HRC, and 55-57 HRC in their A2 steel knives.

I don't think Mr. Glesser said anything about lowering hardness, and if you want to consider production prices, low hardness is cheaper to make, easier to HT, and easier to machine, sharpen, etc.