Sharpening high hardness and wear resistant steels

scooping/notching cuts
when checking sharpness you favored the tip of blade

For 3-5k finished edge, whittle pine probably would reveal more apex weakness.

I took note of the above and made an effort to make more scooping type cuts and harder cuts, as well as deliberately favoring the heel of the blade in sharpness tests, for the following tests conducted on 3-5k finished edges on pine and cardboard (Note I can only post 3 of them in one message so last will be in next message):

[video=youtube;IAGHa-DdQX8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAGHa-DdQX8[/video]
[video=youtube;IxLwfyu0A3Y]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxLwfyu0A3Y[/video]
[video=youtube;DD5cj1K1yGE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DD5cj1K1yGE[/video]

I began by sharpening the mora on the King deluxe 1k stone but upon inspection I discovered the loosely bonded stone was leaving a lot of abrasive on the edge bevel.

From here I decided that I would use my Shapton Glass stones because they are all cut and almost no mud.

Jason,

Interesting images. Would you by any chance be able to get a few more angles (i.e. tilt edge relative to camera) of both knives?

Also, the results you obtained with the Shapton Glass stones appears, at least at first glance, to accord with what Luong was suggesting: That the waterstones I am using may be working for me on Maxamet because I personally prefer very low bond strength stones and prefer to use them with a heavy slurry, while the much stronger bond relatively slurry free Shapton Glass stones may not work very well on 10V for you.

It would be interesting if you tried the King 1000 and use it with a heavy slurry and see if you get better results on 10V?
 
This is the final video of this series of tests:

[video=youtube;rw9ieD6BNjs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rw9ieD6BNjs[/video]

Across all five tests I found that initial sharpness was in line with expectations for the finishing stone used, that testing the apex stability of each apex by whittling pine did not reveal any premature failures on the apexes off any of the stones, and that high-sharpness edge retention as tested on slicing cardboard did not show any catastrophic loss of high-sharpness on the apexes off any of the stones.

In summary, I was not able to detect any empirical evidence for the theoretical inability of AlOx or SiC abrasives to abrade vanadium carbides causing any defects in the initial sharpness, apex strength or high-sharpness edge retention of a Spyderco Maxamet Mule at ~68 HRC and with a ~15 dps edge bevel when tested on a DMT EEF, SPS-II 3000, King 4000, Spyderco M or SPS-II 13000 and Spyderco UF.
 
Here is VG-10 on the King 1k

S20161201_017.jpg


Here is the 10v

S20161201_016.jpg


The differences are less obvious here but you can see the 10v has some slight changes in the scratch pattern, not only in depth but size. You can also see the edge apex is a little smoother on the 10v. The more obvious changes to the naked eye were a very high polish on the sharpened bevel and the feel of the edge was similar to what you would find from a 3k-4k waterstone. There was also the same problem of stone glazing but it was happening faster. I will try and go to higher grits where the effect is much greater but that is going to take some time.

Changing angles is difficult because the lighting system is not that good and the focal adjustment sucks, I get about 1 of every 5 pictures that are clear.
 
Here again is 10v sharpened on my Kohetsu 800 (Aluminum oxide),

S20161201_039.jpg


On the 2k Kohetsu (Silicon Carbide) things start getting interesting, you can see the tear out at the apex and even follow the scratch pattern up to the tear out on the second picture. I will be moving to the Cerax 6k next (probably tomorrow) where I believe we will see some really cool stuff.

I would like to mention I cannot feel these imperfections in the edge but they run from heel to tip and vary in size.

S20161201_041.jpg


S20161201_043.jpg
 
Jason - thanks much. We are on the same page :thumbup:

SteelDrake - Repeat - your sharpening skills is good. Thanks for your work & sharing...

However your testing & validation need improvement. Plus possibly add a base reset/dulling per sequence - such as edge draws into a DMT F/E/EE (depend finish level) plate.

Test: Your long cuts are mostly splitting very soft pine (my test pine is twisty & almost oak hard). So try cut more wood across grain & put some lateral on that edge by press/carve a 3cm wide 'U' through that pine stick. Yeah basically, cut across grain through the stick with U shape notch (not v-cut). Please whittle bamboo with carve out action and eventually cut through the bamboo stick (of chop stick) within 1-2cm section, since splitting doesn't involve the edge after the initial entry.

Validation: * issue with: pre & post edge newsprint cut tests *
 
Something else I should mention is the that the Kohetsu stones are soft and give up abrasive quickly. I typically describe them as softer than a King but faster than a Shapton. These stones are probably as close as it gets to the SPS-II stones.
 
I am staying out of this even though I have owned sigma stones as long or longer than anyone on here. I tried them, talked to Luong a few years about them, then ditched the 1000 and the 3000. The 240 sits at my parents and does a good job fixing my mom's abused knives.
It doesn't do anything an 8" crystolon won't do at half the price on her mixed bag of cutlery, which tops out with some shun vg10.
I don't have an electron microscope, or a regular microscope. I have 2 loupes and my edges look pretty good through those.
One last thing, I feel some people may want to look up the word "empirical"...

so much for staying out of it, but these sharpening threads are starting to be littered with people on ignore...

Russ
 
Plus possibly add a base reset/dulling per sequence - such as edge draws into a DMT F/E/EE (depend finish level) plate.

This was already done between each test. The previous apex was cut off with edge draws into the initial stone to be used for shaping the apex for the subsequent test (e.g. DMT EF for DMT EEF test, SPS-II 1000 for SPS-II 3000 test, DMT EF for Spyderco M test).

Test: Your long cuts are mostly splitting very soft pine

I invite anyone reading these comments to in particular watch the last video where I test the apex off a Spyderco M and make many u shaped cuts into the pine, as well as diagonally across the grain cuts when I had reached the point of turning into a spear.

Now first of all, I want to say that I have conducted these tests, to the best of my abilities, according to the criteria specified by advocates of the theory that AlOx and SiC abrasives shouldn't be used on high hardness and high vanadium content steels. To see the tests conducted as specified and then after they do not produce the results you want to see keep trying to change the criteria until they *do* produce the results you want to see is not a neutral approach to testing.

I also want to note that if the level of pine whittling done in the Spyderco M test above was still not hard enough to provoke any potential failure then this implies first of all that for most end users of high hardness, high carbide steels, that any potential negative side effects from using AlOx or SiC abrasives (the way I use them) will not be noticeable since end users of these types of steels are not typically using them for applications where extremely high lateral loading is likely.

It also means that the point at which premature failure of the apex in lateral loading occurs off of non-diamond abrasives is apparently likely to be high enough to end up being fairly close to where it has a risk of occurring off of a diamond plate in whittling, and that would again imply that whatever difference may exist in the apex strength off of AlOx or SiC abrasives vs. diamond, the difference is so small as to be very difficult to detect in use (at least the way I sharpen).

Now since I'm already in for a penny: How thick would the bamboo need to be? I can only get fresh (i.e. yellow) bamboo. Under no circumstances will I be trying to chop anything with a Maxamet blade at ~68 HRC. Can I save time by just doing the test comparing a DMT EEF and Spyderco M?
 
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On the 2k Kohetsu (Silicon Carbide) things start getting interesting, you can see the tear out at the apex and even follow the scratch pattern up to the tear out on the second picture. I will be moving to the Cerax 6k next (probably tomorrow) where I believe we will see some really cool stuff.

Jason,

Thanks for the images. Could you try and get a shot of the mm scale of a ruler? Would help get a sense of the magnification power.

In the second image, I believe that is a micro-chip rather than carbide tear out, as I believe it is too large (i.e. dozens or hundreds of microns) relative to the scale of the carbides (2-5 microns), but I cannot be sure of the size until I see a mm scale.
 
A freshly sharpened edge with a micro chip? Do you honestly believe I would let that happen?

You can SEE the abrasive path all the way to the chip. Also, as I stated these liter the edge from front to back. There is simply no way I could add a scale in with the picture using this microscope unless the picture is solely of the ruler. The focal distance between the ruler and edge would be too much.

I also think you are focusing on the edge apex strength too much. The steel will stay the same all the time, edge geometry and steel hardness will be the main contributing factors in edge strength, not what grit it was sharpened to or by what kind of abrasive.
 
"You can SEE the abrasive path all the way to the chip. Also, as I stated these liter the edge from front to back. There is simply no way I could add a scale in with the picture using this microscope unless the picture is solely of the ruler. The focal distance between the ruler and edge would be too much. "

I have noticed that exact thing on the 10v 68hrc blade I have been sharpening with diamond.My take on that is that it happened on a coarser grit stone,then as I
continued to use finer and finer grit I did not fully remove all the deep scratch patterns left over from the coarse grit.
I am planning to resharpen the blade with the main purpose to remove those scratch path to microchip marks.
My WE is in an unheatd garage and it is starting to get cold here,this might slow me a little!!
 
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"You can SEE the abrasive path all the way to the chip. Also, as I stated these liter the edge from front to back. There is simply no way I could add a scale in with the picture using this microscope unless the picture is solely of the ruler. The focal distance between the ruler and edge would be too much. "

I have noticed that exact thing on the 10v 68hrc blade I have been sharpening with diamond.My take on that is that it happened on a coarser grit stone,then as I
continued to use finer and finer grit I did not fully remove all the deep scratch patterns left over from the coarse grit.
I am planning to resharpen the blade with the main purpose to remove those scratch path to microchip marks.
My WE is in an unheatd garage and it is starting to get cold here,this might slow me a little!!

I really don't see that being my problem and doesn't make much sense with yours, unless you were simply not removing the coarse scratch pattern completely. The coarsest stone used was the Kohetsu 800 and prior to this the edge was finished on a DMT EEF 8000 mesh. The edge had NO chips after sharpening on the 800 grit stone.
 
A freshly sharpened edge with a micro chip? Do you honestly believe I would let that happen?

You can SEE the abrasive path all the way to the chip. Also, as I stated these liter the edge from front to back. There is simply no way I could add a scale in with the picture using this microscope unless the picture is solely of the ruler. The focal distance between the ruler and edge would be too much.

Jason, sorry, I should have used the term "micro-chip" only as a description of the missing portion of the apex and not as a suggestion as to what had caused it.

Also, I meant if you could take a picture of just the mm scale of a ruler by itself as that is helpful for determining the magnification power of the microscope, for example:



This image shows that my USB microscope captures about ~2.2mm across the frame and thus a ~2200 micron length of edge in 1600 pixels, meaning each pixel represents about ~1.375 microns.

Now, I suggested it was probably not related to carbide tear out using the following reasoning, and if I am overlooking something in this reasoning please let me know.

Firstly, from the way the scratch patterns look in the images you posted I am guessing the magnification power of your microscope is at least in the same ballpark as the one I am using. I cannot know that for sure unless you post an image of the MM scale of a ruler like the above one I posted. Still, based on the assumption that your USB microscope has roughly similar magnification power, each pixel in an image taken with it would represent about 1.4 microns.



Now if you look at this zoomed in image of the micro-chip, you will see I have added a pixel scale to the image that shows the micro-chip is ~23 pixels wide and ~15 pixels deep. On my microscope this would translate to approximately ~30 microns wide and ~20 microns deep, which is ~10 times the scale of the ~2-5 micron sized carbides we are talking about. This is why I thought it may not be related to carbide tear out, because the scale is totally different.

Now, it may be the case that 10V forms carbide aggregates that large, and it may be the case that the image you posted is therefore showing carbide tear out, but I can say that I have not observed anything like that image at any point with my Maxamet Mule either before or even after any of the tests I posted videos of. Thus, even if it is evidence of carbide tear out (which it may be), it appears not to have occurred at all in Maxamet.

I also think you are focusing on the edge apex strength too much. The steel will stay the same all the time, edge geometry and steel hardness will be the main contributing factors in edge strength, not what grit it was sharpened to or by what kind of abrasive.

The emphasis on apex strength came directly from proponents of the theory that you shouldn't use AlOx or SiC abrasives on high hardness, high vanadium steels. I also tested initial sharpness and high-sharpness edge retention, and didn't find any noticeable difference on those measures either. I'm not sure what other aspect of apex performance there would be to test to check for the presence of negative consequences from using AlOx or SiC on Maxamet?
 
The negative affects are the edge not being all that it could be. The sharpness (which you must feel to gauge) the scratch pattern and cleanliness of the apex all being degraded by the use of inferior abrasives.

My guess as to why the "chip" is so large is possibly from a clump of carbides or that the abrasive action pushing on each side of the apex dislodged the Carbide and some surrounding matrix. Also, it was not until I sharpened on the 2k that I found "chips" in the edge.

I will work on getting a scale picture posted along with some other photos of the same knives sharpened to different grits. Probably gonna take some time though.
 
The negative affects are the edge not being all that it could be. The sharpness (which you must feel to gauge) the scratch pattern and cleanliness of the apex all being degraded by the use of inferior abrasives.

Jason,

That is an unfalsifiable claim and essentially amounts to claiming it is a matter of faith rather than scientific inquiry. I prefer to limit myself to what can be empirically demonstrated to be true in repeatable experiments.

I will work on getting a scale picture posted along with some other photos of the same knives sharpened to different grits. Probably gonna take some time though.

Thanks, I will look forward to seeing more images of scratch patterns from different stones.

The pictures you have posted so far, and in general the extreme contrast between the results you describe off of hard, strongly bonded waterstones vs the results I describe off soft, weakly bonded waterstones would seem to suggest that Luong was right to emphasize the role of rapidly exposing fresh abrasive on the surface of the stone in why I was getting such similar scratch patterns between carbon steel and Maxamet.

Now, that would make sense to me, as I prefer weakly bonded stones that expose fresh abrasive rapidly for exactly this reason (since I don't typically finish the apex on a waterstone, I am unconcerned about any slight apex rounding that results from using waterstones with a thick slurry). The one thing that appears to throw a bit of a wrench into this reasoning is that I have been able to consistently get good results on Maxamet off my Spyderco sintered alumina benchstones, but that would appear to contradict the pattern observed on the waterstones, where the rapid exposure of fresh abrasive appears to be critical.

Does the sintering process make the Spyderco stones harder than the AlOx in a waterstone?
 
I just carefully examined a Big Chris 10v 64hrc blade and there are no microship or large scratches.
I sharpened this blade the same way although about 2 months ago.
J
 
Apexed grit and whether grit progression overlapped will determine final surface & apex smoothness. Here is a more/less a partially smoothened 240 grit apex

*note: small round bumps are carbide ~2um dia
* refined toothy edge
QXdVV6g.jpg


Smooth/bright patches are from ee scratch pattern. While major deep scratches & rough apex from 240 SiC remain. Now, if I flatten the apex with EE and then sharpen with EE for a while, obviously the apex and surfaces will reflect the fine/smooth level of details of EE.

When sharpen with large abrasive near apexing, very easy for the edge to suffer fracture/crack from impact (grain boundaries <= plural).

edit to add: per your BigChris blade - no 'large scratches' only possible if finer grit erased coarser scratches and replaced with its own scratch pattern. So, as example above, in order to remove that 240 scratches with DMT EE, that will take a long while to reduce the whole bevel by the max 240 scratch depth. For perspective, take remove 10um micro chips/scratches from a tungsten carbide scrapper with E or EE, that will take a while. 25% Vanadium carbide volume is probably near effort of 95% WC volume in scrapper.

I just carefully examined a Big Chris 10v 64hrc blade and there are no microship or large scratches.
I sharpened this blade the same way although about 2 months ago.
J
 
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Steel-Drake, good thinking through this sharpen stuff :thumbup:

Per my earlier post about validation. Your initial(as-sharpened) edge was push cut but tested/after edge was slice cut (as shown in videos), therefore conclusion should be ending edge still slice with grain of newsprint. So when a loss of 2-6um keenness is not appropriately captured.

Although a bamboo chopstick is quite soft, please do a 'C' cut a few times, check edge after each cut. If you can find (or willing to trash) a bamboo cutting board, reverse_'J' cuts.
 
Your initial(as-sharpened) edge was push cut but tested/after edge was slice cut (as shown in videos), therefore conclusion should be ending edge still slice with grain of newsprint.

Sorry, which part of which video are you referring to here?

Although a bamboo chopstick is quite soft, please do a 'C' cut a few times, check edge after each cut. If you can find (or willing to trash) a bamboo cutting board, reverse_'J' cuts.

By "C" cuts do you mean scalloping cuts out of a bamboo chopstick?
 
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