Sharpening S110V, Are Diamonds A Must?

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Bigfoot870

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Jan 20, 2016
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I've been sharpening knives on oil stones for many years (my Dad came from a commercial fishing family, and he taught me at a young age). Over the years I owned many "cheap" folders, mostly USA made Gerber, and locally manufactured (Pictou, NS) Grohmann fixed blades. A few years back, I got into 1095 CS fixed blades (TOPS, ESEE, Becker), and got much more serious with my sharpening. I invested in a couple of Arkansas hard stones, and made a two sided leather strop......one side with green "rouge" and one side with none. I had a lot of fun, sharpening to shaving sharp.

Recently, I purchased my first Spydie, a Delica4 FFG, then another Delica, and now I have a Manix II Lighweight in S110V on the way.

I can get a good edge on the Delica's VG-10 blade, but not as good as I'd like. With the Manix II LW on the way, I think it's time for me to rethink my sharpening methods, as the small FFG blades are different than I am used to, and I know that S110V is a whole different game.

Online, I've looked at the Work Sharp, Sharpmaker and Lansky Crock Stick manual systems. Is the Sharpmaker my best bet, knowing that I will touch up often, and not let my knives get too dull? Also, do I need to use diamond products? If so, please advise specifically what products and sequence works for you.
 
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Bigfoot870 said:
I've been sharpening knives on oil stones for many years (my Dad came from a commercial fishing family, and he taught me at a young age). Over the years I owned many "cheap" folders, mostly USA made Gerber, and locally manufactured (Pictou, NS) Grohmann fixed blades. A few years back, I got into 1095 CS fixed blades (TOPS, ESEE, Becker), and got much more serious with my sharpening. I invested in a couple of Arkansas hard stones, and made a two sided leather strop......one side with green "rouge" and one side with none. I had a lot of fun, sharpening to shaving sharp.

Recently, I purchased my first Spydie, a Delica4 FFG, then another Delica, and now I have a Manix II Lighweight in S110V on the way.

I can get a good edge on the Delica's VG-10 blade, but not as good as I'd like. With the Manix II LW on the way, I think it's time for me to rethink my sharpening methods, as the small FFG blades are different than I am used to, and I know that S110V is a whole different game.

Online, I've looked at the Work Sharp, Sharpmaker and Lansky Crock Stick manual systems. Is the Sharpmaker my best bet, knowing that I will touch up often, and not let my knives get too dull? Also, do I need to use diamond products? If so, please advise specifically what products and sequence works for you.
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Any actual sharpening information from experienced non-trolling members would be greatly appreciated.
 
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Jason B. said:
Diamonds will be best and a DMT Coarse plus a strop with 1 micron diamond compound would be an ideal sharpening method for S110V
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Also agree, to what Jason said^. :thumbsup:

Some will maintain that a SiC stone can do some of the heavy grinding/shaping work pretty well, at the coarse end. I think I can understand the 'can-o'-worms' reference, in regards to that. But at the finishing end, when it gets down to actually shaping and thinning all the ultra-hard carbides in the steel at the edge, diamond will make a obvious difference in finished sharpness. So, knowing that, there's little incentive to waste time using anything but diamond. It'll just make the work, from beginning to end, much, much simpler for the superior results attained.

If you've already been accustomed to freehand sharpening with your Arkansas stones on your simpler blades, I'd just stick with using the same skill set on a diamond hone or two, for the 110V.
 
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Even aluminum oxide stones will work. They will easily abrade the matrix steel. The Japanese often work with somewhat ludicrous steels at very high hardnesses, and they still use alox waterstones to sharpen up.

Steel Drake on Youtube supplants the notion that non-diamond abrasives somehow producing a less-durable edge than diamond hones.

Michael Christy, in fact using S110V as well, supplants the notion of theoretical carbide-tearout causing practical issues in sharpening. That is, he whittles hair with S110V even after employing an alumina ceramic abrasive.

That being said, someone posted on here once the effect of sharpening high carbide steel (it was S90V or something like that) with an Arkansas stone, and the stone was grossly ineffective against the steel.
EDIT: the steel was A-2, the post was by Wowbagger, and we get shafted by Photobucket's BS third party image hosting, but he describes the pictures nevertheless:
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/arkansas-stones-on-super-steels.1478003/

So if you’re using Arkansas stones, I would highly recommend upgrading your sharpening system, and since you would be upgrading, you might as well just go diamonds because they are generally accepted as the OPTIMAL sharpening method for super high carbide steels. But if you like waterstones more, they will absolutely work. I have even demonstrated that the lowly King stones will sharpen M390 at 60-62hrc just fine here: https://bladeforums.com/threads/sharpening-stones-recommendation.1553243/ Not an ideal example, as S110V should be even more wear resistant, but the demonstration supplanted the idea that alox stones are ineffective against steels with 4% Vanadium—to further support the idea, Steel Drake successfully works the Mule Team in Maxamet at approximately 68hrc with a King 4000:
.

So in short, diamonds will be fastest/most effective, but they are not your only option.

Likewise with stropping compounds: I have successfully (i.e. with no higher degree of effort than usual) achieved a hair whittling edge on M390 (again, not ideal, but certainly inside the range of "alox can't touch it" vanadium content) using a King 1200, King 6k, and stropping on chromium oxide (standard green compound at ~.5 microns), the least hard abrasive medium in common use. In practice, it performed imperceptibly different from my half micron CBN, but in theory diamonds and CBN stropping compounds will be better.
 
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I will admit I don't know as much as many that will respond to you but I will just give you my experience since I found myself in the similiar situation ...

grew up using bench stones oil or water ... I recently upgraded my stones to Chosera Pros and Shapton and love the feedback of these stones ... and I have sharpened some of the new harder steels on them and they work but it's slow going on some ... so finally broke down and added some DMT Diamond plates and I do agree they sharpen faster and easier on these newer "super steels" ...

I'm still adjusting to them as I much prefer the feedback from the Chosera and Shapton stones or even Norton Crystolon and India stones ...

but I admit the diamond do sharpen faster and well once you get the feel for them ... I don't know that you "NEED" diamonds for S110V ... but they will work faster ... and then I still finish on either a strop with diamond paste or CBN compound ... or on the Shaptons just because I can get feedback and a bit nicer edge ...

so the diamonds feel different but they do work great I definately would say IMHO to get the continuous diamond stones and a light touch and you'll get it fast enough from your sharpening background ...

just my personal experience ... there are much more knowledgable people that will chime in I'm sure

JJ
 
Thank you for you excellent, honest post, JJ :)

By "feedback", do you mean feel or result or both?

I think I know what you mean, based on being used to freehand sharpening on stones, but I'm not 100% sure.
 
9FB4321A-AA76-4908-94ED-1975D942D727.jpeg The useful information is contained in this chart. Notice that Vanadium Carbide is harder than either Aluminum Oxide or Silicon Carbide. You cannot actually sharpen (abrade) a harder material with a softer one. I use Venev Bonded Diamond “stones” on my VC blades and Shapton Water Stones on the rest.
 
tiguy7 said:
.......You cannot actually sharpen (abrade) a harder material with a softer one. ......
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I'm curious to know your source for this statement.

Are you saying that is not possible to sharpen a chromium carbide containing steel with a quartz or garnet containing natural whetstone?
 
Bigfoot870 said:
Can you suggest a couple of grit sizes, for use in succession?
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That kind of depends on what you think you'll do with the knife. If you do some fairly heavy reprofiling, an XC is handy; but you might not use such a grit much after that. At the finishing end, depending on how refined you want the edge, anything from Coarse thru EF or EEF might be possible. I'd prioritize the finishing end first; that's where the cutting benefit of the diamond really pays off on high-carbide steels like this. In general, a Coarse/Fine (325/600) combination is generally very versatile and popular, barring any other specific preferences you might have. You can still do some pretty fast grinding with the Coarse in a bench-sized hone (8" or bigger); and either of the Coarse or Fine will leave a good or excellent working edge.
 
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I have tried Whetstone's with S110v and I'm not the biggest fan of just using Whetstones only on S110v,the Vanadium Carbides in S110v steel get to be around 80 to 82 hardness witch is harder then most if not all sharpening stones other then Diamond or CBN.

I think the best way sharpen S110v is with a Diamond or CBN stone and use the Spyderco Ceramic stones to maintain the edge and strop it with 1 micron Diamond.
 
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Well , I just try to scratch pure SIC with AO stone ...nothing .I try to scratch pure tungsten carbide with AO stone ....nothing happened . I try with diamond .......I can sharpen both if I want with diamond stone . My question about this is ..........since vanadium carbide a so small , did force that hold them in steel is enough so diamond can cut instead of tear them ? Anyone have picture what was really happening ?
 
Ankerson said:
All depends on what finish you are putting on the edge, coarser grits it won't make any difference and the Vanadium carbides are VERY small.
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If you go after small hard Carbides with a softer material, the outcomes are small hard Carbides sitting proud of the substrate and/or small voids where said Carbides have been removed. The only way to get your small hard Carbides flush and smooth is to use an abrasive that is harder than shC’s.
If your micro edge looks like a buzz saw, you won’t notice bumps or voids when cutting. The Vanadium Carbides in BG-42 are probably larger than the VC’s in powder alloys because BG is conventionally smelted.
 
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Natlek said:
Well , I just try to scratch pure SIC with AO stone ...nothing .I try to scratch pure tungsten carbide with AO stone ....nothing happened . I try with diamond .......I can sharpen both if I want with diamond stone . My question about this is ..........since vanadium carbide a so small , did force that hold them in steel is enough so diamond can cut instead of tear them ? Anyone have picture what was really happening ?
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According to the chart, if it is correct, Al2O3 should scratch WC. When two materials on the chart are close together, the speed of removal slows down. SiC was developed for sharpening Tungsten Carbide tool bits presumably to speed up the process.
You can use identical materials to sharpen each other. Diamond dust is used to polish Diamonds. If your edge is harder than your stones, you might just be sharpening your stones.
 
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