Sharpening S110V, Are Diamonds A Must?

B Bigfoot870

Thank you for you excellent, honest post, JJ :)

By "feedback", do you mean feel or result or both?

I think I know what you mean, based on being used to freehand sharpening on stones, but I'm not 100% sure.

By feedback I mean the feel you get from the stone as you sharpen ... as you're used to stones you can probably tell the difference in your coarse and fine stones when you sharpen ... and feel how your knife edges are as you progress ...

the diamonds have a different feel ... the coarer ones especially ... and it took me awhile to get used to that ... and learn it doesn't take just light pressure with diamonds to cut quickly ... once I lightened the pressure I started to get a better feel for them ...

I'm still learning them and prefer the other stones but I do find the diamonds alot faster on the newer harder steels ...

and I have sharpened some newer steels on the other stones I mentioned but it does take longer and Im sure wears on the stones more ...

the DMT continuous diamond stones are closer in feel as you go to finer stones ... or for me they are ...

I doubt you let your knives get dull since you are used to using and sharpening so you could probably get by with a diamond stone or two and diamond paste on a strop as some mentioned ...

JJ
 
I'm curious to know your source for this statement.

Are you saying that is not possible to sharpen a chromium carbide containing steel with a quartz or garnet containing natural whetstone?
My statement is based upon my understanding of the theory behind the mohs’ scale, namely that harder minerals scratch softer ones. Minerals can be arranged in order of their hardness and be classified hard, medium, soft, etc.
I haven’t tested all the sharpenor/sharpenee combinations, but I remember the moaning that went on when decent stainless cutlery steels were introduced and most users had a stack of natural (quartz) stones.
 
I had a good discussion on the topic previously.
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/hardness-and-abrasion-capability.1478806/

My conclusions of the discussion were:
(1) Natural stones like Arkansas (quartz, silicate, or novaculite) may not be the first choice when sharpening high carbide volume steels.
(2) You can use any good ceramic stones (alumina and above) for a coarse finish above 10 micron or below #1,000 ANSI grit.
(3) You would need abrasives harder than carbides for finer finishes, if you want to save time and effort. For vanadium carbide steels, this would be cubic boron nitride or diamond. Alumina and silicon carbide can still work but not efficiently. This may also apply to strops.
(4) Alternatively, one can use diamond lapping films instead of stones for finer finishes.

Hope this helps.
 
Ankerson has 2 good points: 'it depends on how fine you go w/ the finish & vanadium carbides are very small'. Plus, others on here assert that carbide tear out is not proven. Which is a underlying issue in this topic that we've been going on about for years. But I'll try to help Bigfoot and stay within his ask information.
I don't own a knife w/ 110v steel. I do own a knife w/ s90v & s60v and several with s30v steel. To rebevel these you need a good coarse SiC stone or a extra coarse diamond. This first stone is critical. Then a coarse diamond will wear down much quicker than a finer silicon carbide stone. And you pay more for the benefits of the diamond. Which to me are small. Especially after the diamond stone is 10 yrs. old as they wear down to cut slower. More on par w/ the SiC. I sharpen more than most and only take a edge to around 600 grit. So, a fine diamond and x fine SiC. What I have noticed is a fine diamond stone will remove the burr quicker than a SiC stone without stropping generally with any steel. The edge on your steel will curl and this can be straightened quickly on a fine diamond. A little quicker than on a x fine SiC which is a stone that is hard to find.
No more than your sharpening load get the 2x6" size DMT in x coarse, coarse and fine for that steel. I suppose I'll use my diamond stones until they cut slower than my SiC stones. Then put them aside and use the SiC until they wear out. Which will be beyond my lifetime. Good luck, DM
 
Ankerson has 2 good points: 'it depends on how fine you go w/ the finish & vanadium carbides are very small'. Plus, others on here assert that carbide tear out is not proven. Which is a underlying issue in this topic that we've been going on about for years. But I'll try to help Bigfoot and stay within his ask information.
I don't own a knife w/ 110v steel. I do own a knife w/ s90v & s60v and several with s30v steel. To rebevel these you need a good coarse SiC stone or a extra coarse diamond. This first stone is critical. Then a coarse diamond will wear down much quicker than a finer silicon carbide stone. And you pay more for the benefits of the diamond. Which to me are small. Especially after the diamond stone is 10 yrs. old as they wear down to cut slower. More on par w/ the SiC. I sharpen more than most and only take a edge to around 600 grit. So, a fine diamond and x fine SiC. What I have noticed is a fine diamond stone will remove the burr quicker than a SiC stone without stropping generally with any steel. The edge on your steel will curl and this can be straightened quickly on a fine diamond. A little quicker than on a x fine SiC which is a stone that is hard to find.
No more than your sharpening load get the 2x6" size DMT in x coarse, coarse and fine for that steel. I suppose I'll use my diamond stones until they cut slower than my SiC stones. Then put them aside and use the SiC until they wear out. Which will be beyond my lifetime. Good luck, DM
have you heard of the new venev bonded diamond stones? they make them for most of the guided systems and bench stones. I've got a few different brand diamond bench stones, some of which I worn out. but my venev stones are probably going to last forever. the diamonds are bonded in an organic substrate. keeps them in place. when it gets duller, refresh the surface and new diamond's get exposed to cut better again. feel is different than DMT stones too. affordable in comparison too.

these venev stones worked extremely well on my manix 2 in s110v.
 
What you using to refresh the Venev stones with,that was only concern with them and that's when the diamonds get dull if they would keep sharpening,from what I'm seeing so far with the metallic bonded CBN they haven't shown any signs of getting dull or slowing down.
 
Are the Venev stones from out of country. So, you have to scrape them with another stone to refresh them.?
Do you have a site/ link for the CBN bonded stones? How many knives have you guys sharpened on these stones or how long have you had them? DM
 
NO, you don't NEED diamonds to sharpen or maintain S110V.

Hey Ankerson I do agree that diamonds are not totally necessary to sharpen S110V ( or other supersteels in that league) but I do find that my diamond stones really save me a ton of time when reprofiling a really banged up edge. Agree? Disagree?

To be honest in the past 5 years or so I've found that diamond and ceramic have been my best friend and are what I use for M390 and other steels in that upper tier.

I am however seriously looking at getting some Shapton Stones that the one Brother seems to be proud of. Always enjoy your input Ankerson.
 
Hey Ankerson I do agree that diamonds are not totally necessary to sharpen S110V ( or other supersteels in that league) but I do find that my diamond stones really save me a ton of time when reprofiling a really banged up edge. Agree? Disagree?

To be honest in the past 5 years or so I've found that diamond and ceramic have been my best friend and are what I use for M390 and other steels in that upper tier.

I am however seriously looking at getting some Shapton Stones that the one Brother seems to be proud of. Always enjoy your input Ankerson.

Depends on what one uses I suppose.

I use SIC stones on my Edge Pro to do that sort of work, Congress Moldmaster stones, they are VERY hard and cut fast.

I do have 2 Shapton Pro Stones for the Edge Pro, the Mold Masters cut faster.
 
Ankerson has 2 good points: 'it depends on how fine you go w/ the finish & vanadium carbides are very small'. Plus, others on here assert that carbide tear out is not proven. Which is a underlying issue in this topic that we've been going on about for years. But I'll try to help Bigfoot and stay within his ask information.
I don't own a knife w/ 110v steel. I do own a knife w/ s90v & s60v and several with s30v steel. To rebevel these you need a good coarse SiC stone or a extra coarse diamond. This first stone is critical. Good luck, DM

Hey David Martin? Glad you mentioned one of my all time nemesis blade steels>> that being S60V or what Spyderco always called 440V. They talk about some of these newer steels being a challenge to sharpen but I've always maintained and still say that S60V ( 440V) is truly a monster to sharpen:D. However it is one of my all time favorite blade steels for Spyderedges ( serrations). Few people remember how outrageously hard that steel was to maintain.

Also what do you like for putting a finished edge on these upper tier blade steels?
 
What I understand, after much ( A LOT ) of reading about sharpening steels like S110V, you can indeed use coarse stones to establish and edge, even AlOx, and get a decently sharp edge, because you are essentially plowing away/abrading the martensite matrix that hold the carbide, and the VC carbides go along with that swarf that is removed. However, as you progress up the scale to finer stones, you no longer plow away the martensite matrix because the size of the abrasive particle is too close to that of the carbide, and that is when diamonds are needed to refine the edge.

I have never sharpened S110V, but there is a lot of good info from very knowledgeable people out there.
 
I use SIC stones on my Edge Pro to do that sort of work, Congress Moldmaster stones, they are VERY hard and cut fast.

I do have 2 Shapton Pro Stones for the Edge Pro, the Mold Masters cut faster.

+1 with your take on the Sic Moldmaster stones, they are very good, and 5cost effective (you can buy a pair that fit Sharpmaker [SM] for under $10 total). For folks using SM and wanting to be able to profile fast, including hard steels like D2 or those with high vanadium carbides, these will get it done and I see no better alternative for that specific role. Basically, the Moldmasters enable SM to become a complete sharpening solution for the first time. However, in my case it seemed to get best results if, after profiling on moldmasters say 150 grit, I switched over to diamonds (the Sharpmaker 400 mesh rods) to apex. That got my edges noticeably sharper in the things they could do slicing news print or shaving hair. The results with diamonds were noticeably better than if I just used the straight Moldmaster SiC progression such as 150/400/600, to profile, apex, and finish prior to stropping.

My sample size on sharpening super steels is small, just a handful of personal knives in S30v, S35vn, M390, 20cv, and CTS-XHP. What I've observed up to this point:

  • You can definitely use SiC stones to work with these super steel blades. I got tolerably good results whether on Sharpmaker or bench stones, if I used Sic stones *only* for the coarse bevel setting and profiling work. I could also use Sic for the whole progression and get sharp, but it was a noticeably lower level of sharpness than when I used diamonds for the high grit part of the progression. Personally, I would *not* recommend trying to sharpen these super steels using ONLY SiC stones, even though I've demonstrated at home that you can do it, and it will achieve a decent working level of sharpness.
  • The progressions that have ended up working the best for me on these super steels, where "results" are measured using the home sharpness tests indicated in the Sharpness Chart in forum sticky:
    1. Absolute best: diamonds end-to-end in the progression. Example: DMT XC (220) > DMC C (325) > DMT EF (1200) > strop.
    2. Very good (sharpening results that are nearly as good as (1) and totally usable for EDU knife tasks): Sic stones for the coarse/profiling work, followed by diamonds. Example: Norton Crystolon coarse (120) > DMT C (325) > DMT EF (1200) > strop. Another example on Sharpmaker: Moldmaster rod (150) > SM diamond rod (400 mesh) > SM UF ceramic rod > strop.
I wouldn't even try to pretend to offer an all-encompassing explanation for all this. We have some super experienced folks, in this forum and elsewhere, on both sides of this issue (you have to use diamonds to get optimal/best results, or, you don't--you can use other abrasives and get equal results). Apparently it's not easy to figure this out. All I can see is what I've observed with my knives, and that using all diamonds got noticeably better results on these steels. But it also doesn't seem controversial to point out that 'other materials can work' (at some level of sharpness) to sharpen these steels. I've been able to get decent sharpening results on the steels I listed using combinations of SiC, Alox (the Baryonyx Arctic Fox stone), and even Spyderco UF ceramic as a light finishing step just prior to stropping.

The real question that seems interesting to me, and mildly controversial, which I've not seen conclusively answered with any testing that I've run across: Could you take a high vanadium carbide blade of at least 4%, say 20cv, or even S110v, sharpen it entirely with a non-diamond progression starting with a full edge profile all the way thru stropping (no diamonds or cbn can be used in the strop either :) ), and get tested sharpness results that are as sharp or sharper than if you did the same thing with a 100% diamond progression? Same person, same blade, same sharpening steps. Only difference is all-diamonds progression, or totally non-diamonds progression--pick whatever abrasives you think would work best.

My hunch on that would be no, just based on what I've observed. Other stuff can work, but you have to use diamonds or cbn to get optimal sharpening results with these steels. But I don't KNOW that, and would be delighted to learn otherwise, as it would expand the range of sharpening stones I can use with my super steels. :)

Here's a small test (which would not 'prove' anything conclusively, but would be a useful data point) that I'd love to see:
* Recruit one of our established pro sharpeners in the forum.
* We all chip in and gift them 2 copies of the same blade with high vanadium carbides, let's say something in S90v or S110v.
* We agree on a basic set of sharpening steps and process, and we agree on two progressions: one that's all diamonds or cbn, one that's all NON diamonds.
* We agree on a sharpness test 'protocol' that will be used to evaluate sharpness.
* We find out which blade does best on the test.
* If we want to slightly increase the rigor of the test: we recruit TWO pro sharpeners here in the forum, and have them both run the above test so that we have a little more data.

I assume there are some others here that would be open minded as I am and just interested to try something like this and see what we learn. If anyone is interested, I would be delighted to chip in a few $$ to help fund the blades for the test.
 
Already been done and tested with the Bess Sharpness testers by me, Jason B and some others. There is no difference in sharpness, more to do with sharpening talent.

I can get S110V down in the teens on the Bess Scale @ 400 Grit SIC.

Anything below 50 is insane.
 
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I've been sharpening knives on oil stones for many years (my Dad came from a commercial fishing family, and he taught me at a young age). Over the years I owned many "cheap" folders, mostly USA made Gerber, and locally manufactured (Pictou, NS) Grohmann fixed blades. A few years back, I got into 1095 CS fixed blades (TOPS, ESEE, Becker), and got much more serious with my sharpening. I invested in a couple of Arkansas hard stones, and made a two sided leather strop......one side with green "rouge" and one side with none. I had a lot of fun, sharpening to shaving sharp.

Recently, I purchased my first Spydie, a Delica4 FFG, then another Delica, and now I have a Manix II Lighweight in S110V on the way.

I can get a good edge on the Delica's VG-10 blade, but not as good as I'd like. With the Manix II LW on the way, I think it's time for me to rethink my sharpening methods, as the small FFG blades are different than I am used to, and I know that S110V is a whole different game.

Online, I've looked at the Work Sharp, Sharpmaker and Lansky Crock Stick manual systems. Is the Sharpmaker my best bet, knowing that I will touch up often, and not let my knives get too dull? Also, do I need to use diamond products? If so, please advise specifically what products and sequence works for you.

If you don’t need to reprofile you could get by on one ultrafine sharpmaker rod and go freehand.I often use this rod by itself with s90v or m390/204p/20cv. I sometimes use a dmt green/tan, or a blue/red if I’ve let it get really dull. Dmt double sided diafolds are about $35. The single can be $15 for the 5” or $9 for the keychain versions.
 
Are the Venev stones from out of country. So, you have to scrape them with another stone to refresh them.?
Do you have a site/ link for the CBN bonded stones? How many knives have you guys sharpened on these stones or how long have you had them? DM

Here ya go... https://www.gritomatic.com/collecti...nded-diamond-for-edge-pro?variant=12640332099

I have ordered from these folks a few times and if you look at their entire website they handle a wide assortment of stones in different formats e.g. Edge Pro (Hapstone) and regular bench stones to include cbn and diamond.

I recently purchased Venev Bonded Diamond Stones 240 thru 1200gr. They are out of stock for the 150gr which I am after also so waiting on email notification once they are in.
 
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Already been done and tested with the Bess Sharpness testers by me, Jason B and some others. There is no difference in sharpness, more to do with sharpening talent.

Jason just posted in this thread, and has in others to the same effect, that "Diamonds will be best." Taking that at face value, I'm assuming that means diamonds get best results. That is my observation firsthand usage, but willing to have mind changed if there's anything resembling real data that could validate it.

Would be interested to see the details of your past testing, like the details spelled out in my previous post if you have it online. I've seen some of your other great sharpness testing, but didn't recall seeing this exact type of side-by-side sharpening abrasive comparison like we're talking here.

ETA: Also, I would add, even if this scenario was tested earlier, more test data would be good as clearly the results were not seen as conclusive. :-) As evidenced by the number of threads like this one.
 
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Jason just posted in this thread, and has in others to the same effect, that "Diamonds will be best." Taking that at face value, I'm assuming that means diamonds get best results. That is my observation firsthand usage, but willing to have mind changed if there's anything resembling real data that could validate it.

Would be interested to see the details of your past testing, like the details spelled out in my previous post if you have it online. I've seen some of your other great sharpness testing, but didn't recall seeing this exact type of side-by-side sharpening abrasive comparison like we're talking here.

It's all been done already.

Some were using polished edges instead of coarse edges like I was and STILL couldn't beat my BESS readings.

I also posted a polished edge reading, just a quick polish job using the EP Polish Tapes.

It's all already been done before like I said.

Makes ZERO difference in what one uses, it's more talent in the end.

Get a KN100 and do the testing yourself, try and get under 50 BESS.

If you can then you did something.
 
As I am no expert I can say diamonds are the easiest, I have no way of ascertaining what is best aside from consulting with experts, or with a lot more experience. I can get a sharp edge on a high alloy powder steel with them quickly. I rarely, if ever, use them on plain “carbon steels”
 
ETA: Also, I would add, even if this scenario was tested earlier, more test data would be good as clearly the results were not seen as conclusive. :) As evidenced by the number of threads like this one.

The issue really is not everyone will ever agree on anything with all of the politics and BS etc that surrounds this issue.

I have no skin in the game, I don't care either way, the results were what they were.
 
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