Sharpening S110V, Are Diamonds A Must?

[David Martin]

Here's some additional reading on grit hardness as it is related to cutting vanadium carbides. DM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boron_nitride

 

[tiguy7]

Already been done and tested with the Bess Sharpness testers by me, Jason B and some others. There is no difference in sharpness, more to do with sharpening talent.

I can get S110V down in the teens on the Bess Scale @ 400 Grit SIC.

Anything below 50 is insane.

I commend you on your ability to get low readings on S-110-V on the Bess scale using coarser grits, even though that is counterintuitive. Even if you had no hard Carbides present in the blade (say 1095 steel), those low readings could probably be achieved by you. The Bess filament is not that hard.
My question is, is it possible to have a low Bess reading and make 1000 cuts in the proverbial hemp rope at any level of edge refinement? We are looking for a combination of blade material and sharpening protocols that will cut for a long time and still yield the low Bess readings afterwards.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Thank you very much, David.

I plan to strop, to finish, so I won't be getting into any super fine stones.

Can you suggest a good diamond micron size, or two, for stropping?

If just using it to clean up the edge and add some refinement, 1 micron is pretty useful overall. If you want to polish the bevels to mirror finish, DMT's 3 micron Dia-Paste works very fast, following their EF or EEF hones. I like these compounds on a smooth & firm wood strop (not leather), for the best results; especially for high polish. I've preferred basswood for that.

 

[Ankerson]

I commend you on your ability to get low readings on S-110-V on the Bess scale using coarser grits, even though that is counterintuitive. Even if you had no hard Carbides present in the blade (say 1095 steel), those low readings could probably be achieved by you. The Bess filament is not that hard.
My question is, is it possible to have a low Bess reading and make 1000 cuts in the proverbial hemp rope at any level of edge refinement? We are looking for a combination of blade material and sharpening protocols that will cut for a long time and still yield the low Bess readings afterwards.

NO, there isn't a material made yet that will.

 

[Jason B.]

Already been done and tested with the Bess Sharpness testers by me, Jason B and some others. There is no difference in sharpness, more to do with sharpening talent.

I can get S110V down in the teens on the Bess Scale @ 400 Grit SIC.

Anything below 50 is insane.

Personally, I notice a substantial difference when using diamonds on steels with greater than 4% Vanadium.

As for testing, I used almost every method possible when using the BESS tester from 120 grit machine sharpened edges to hard carbon steel kitchen knives with 10k waterstone edges. I remember the machine edges in the 30's and the 10k edge would cut the line under it own weight. I thought the system was flawed though because the media seemed sensitive to edge type (Coarse vs Fine) and could skew results IMO. Because the test media is what seems to be some sort of plastic filament any sort of polishing to any edge finish would make for a much easier cut but particularly when a Coarse edge was polished. The problem with that is it would yield results that would surpass much finer and sharper edges which IMO did not give a true sharpness rating.

As for steels with 4%+ Vanadium I will always recommend diamond and refer to material hardness charts to show the reasons you should use diamonds. Other abrasives can be used and I have used them myself but the results are rarely on par with the results of a diamond hone.

Truthfully, I didn't want to respond but I did want to clear some things up as it pertains to sharpening high carbide volume steels.

 

[Bigfoot870]

If just using it to clean up the edge and add some refinement, 1 micron is pretty useful overall. If you want to polish the bevels to mirror finish, DMT's 3 micron Dia-Paste works very fast, following their EF or EEF hones. I like these compounds on a smooth & firm wood strop (not leather), for the best results; especially for high polish. I've preferred basswood for that.

So, in summary, based on my OP, to buy a Sharpmaker, and then buy the diamond or CBN triangle rods, I am above my budget.

If I buy 2 diafolds (1 blue/red, C/F & 1 red/green, F/EF) ,that will give me coarse, fine (x2) and extra fine. I wouldn't really need XC, would I?

I was planning to buy 1 micron diamond paste for stropping. Admittedly, I'm a bit lost now ,where you say 3 micron polishes to a mirror finish. If that is the case, why use 1 micron at all, where it is finer than 3?

This is the reference I used.
http://www.industrialdiamondlabs.com/standard-mesh-size-application-chart.html

What two or three micron sizes make a good combination, for after the EF stone? I.e. 5, 3 & 1..........or is 5 redundant, based on using the EF stone?

Is this a suitable product, for stropping on a soft wood, as the 2 gram DMT doesn't seem, to me, to be a large enough qty?
https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B00MALWGPE/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?smid=A2I8O6UEMP6H1S&psc=1

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

So, in summary, based on my OP, to buy a Sharpmaker, and then buy the diamond or CBN triangle rods, I am above my budget.

If I buy 2 diafolds (1 blue/red, C/F & 1 red/green, F/EF) ,that will give me coarse, fine (x2) and extra fine. I wouldn't really need XC, would I?

I was planning to buy 1 micron diamond paste for stropping. Admittedly, I'm a bit lost now ,where you say 3 micron polishes to a mirror finish. If that is the case, why use 1 micron at all, where it is finer than 3?

This is the reference I used.
http://www.industrialdiamondlabs.com/standard-mesh-size-application-chart.html

What two or three micron sizes make a good combination, for after the EF stone? I.e. 5, 3 & 1..........or is 5 redundant, based on using the EF stone?

Is this a suitable product, for stropping on a soft wood, as the 2 gram DMT doesn't seem, to me, to be a large enough qty?
https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B00MALWGPE/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?smid=A2I8O6UEMP6H1S&psc=1

I'm saying the 3 micron diamond paste will be the first to reveal a BIG CHANGE from satin to polished, when working a progression toward a mirror finish. The 1 micron, and finer if you want to, will take it further. But the 3 micron is where you'll first really see the polish begin to pop. If you were to try to go from something like DMT's EF or EEF, straight to 1 micron paste, it'd take much longer to reveal that same polish, than if following with the 3 micron.

As to the progression after the DMT EF (9 micron), I'd likely skip the 5 micron compound and go straight to 3 micron. DMT has a 6 micron paste, and I've tried it, but I've not found it to be as necessary for following either the EF or EEF hone.

 

[Bigfoot870]

I'm saying the 3 micron diamond paste will be the first to reveal a BIG CHANGE from satin to polished, when working a progression toward a mirror finish. The 1 micron, and finer if you want to, will take it further. But the 3 micron is where you'll first really see the polish begin to pop. If you were to try to go from something like DMT's EF or EEF, straight to 1 micron paste, it'd take much longer to reveal that same polish, than if following with the 3 micron.

As to the progression after the DMT EF (9 micron), I'd likely skip the 5 micron compound and go straight to 3 micron. DMT has a 6 micron paste, and I've tried it, but I've not found it to be as necessary for following either the EF or EEF hone.

Thanks, David

How far does DMT's 2 gram paste go?
https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B000MF7JSO/ref=ox_sc_act_title_19?smid=A3DWYIK6Y9EEQB&psc=1

What's your opinion on this?
https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B00MALWGPE/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?smid=A2I8O6UEMP6H1S&psc=1

 

[Mo2]

I want to say I don't have diamond or cbn spray or emulations but would suggests them over paste. I have paste and find it a bit annoying to apply on different stropping materials. it works the same way otherwise. just a suggestion. dunno if anyone else agrees or not. but have seen it said prior.

my next purchase when I get more sharpening supplies will be to get one or the other. (emulsions for smaller strops sprays for larger strops, or so I believe that's how it goes).

 

[Bigfoot870]

I want to say I don't have diamond or cbn spray or emulations but would suggests them over paste. I have paste and find it a bit annoying to apply on different stropping materials. it works the same way otherwise. just a suggestion. dunno if anyone else agrees or not. but have seen it said prior.

 

[Mo2]

that's basically what I do, but use a plastic scraper instead of my fingers. with say, spray you just spray it on, let it dry and go. paste wasn't so easy to spread on denim when I tried it. nothing wrong with either approach, just convenience.

 

[wade7575]

I use Ken Schwartz Emulsions in bot Diamond and CBN and never spray just for the reason your always going to waste some,wether it be a small or large strop just use 3 drops for a small strop like a KME or Edge Pro size and spread it around with your finger and the goes for a larger hand strop just 3 drops onto start and then spread it around and add more to if needed to another area until it is all covered,if you just drop in on from the bottle just start out for the first time using it by putting 3 drops in middle spaced out going one way and spread it you will be able to tell real fast how much more you will need.

Also don't go crazy with the stuff either all you need to do with Kens stuff or sure is just to make sure you get even coverage of the strop and that's it,I got some Poltava CBN paste and I found it has a very sticky waxy feeling to it and it get's onto the blade and without using a bunch of pressure there is no way your going to strop threw the mess I think this it was meant to be used with a buffing wheel,one thing you can try how ever is spread the paste out you has as best you can and use a hair drier and as soon as you see it go liquid spread it around more that's what I do with my Poltava paste and I do it more to get the sticky waxy crap to sink into the leather.

I also use these in the link to spread it the emulsion and paste around,they are called finger cots don't ask me why but I can tell you this the second time I placed an order for them I thought they were called finger condom's and looked for them on ebay and man did I get a surprise what I seen did not look anything what I purchased before the ones I seen were 2 finger jobbies and had bump's on the outside and were for a different kind of spreading around and I'm going to stop there before I get myself banned as this is a family friendly forum LOL.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/100pcs-Dis...tips-Gloves-/232406781893?hash=item361c860fc5

I want to say I don't have diamond or cbn spray or emulations but would suggests them over paste. I have paste and find it a bit annoying to apply on different stropping materials. it works the same way otherwise. just a suggestion. dunno if anyone else agrees or not. but have seen it said prior.

my next purchase when I get more sharpening supplies will be to get one or the other. (emulsions for smaller strops sprays for larger strops, or so I believe that's how it goes).

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Thanks, David

How far does DMT's 2 gram paste go?
https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B000MF7JSO/ref=ox_sc_act_title_19?smid=A3DWYIK6Y9EEQB&psc=1

What's your opinion on this?
https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B00MALWGPE/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?smid=A2I8O6UEMP6H1S&psc=1

That 3-grit DMT combination, in your first link, is what I've used. As small as they are, they can last a while. The hard part is in disciplining oneself not to overapply it. A little bit goes a long way, so you can use it sparingly and still get good results. I'd suggest, if you're pursuing a very polished edge, do as much on the hones as you can, before using the pastes. DMT's EEF (3 micron) hone, used in a tight progression (C/F/EF/EEF), can start to show a little hazy polish on it's own. Following that, you could go to the 3-micron paste on a wood strop and take it further.

I've no idea what to expect from the product shown in that 2nd link. For the price shown, and the volume supplied, I'd assume they might not be as concentrated in grit. If you can get each grit separately, you might try just one or two of them (maybe the 1 and 3.5 micron) to see how they perform, instead of spending more on the full set initially. I personally wouldn't see much justification in going below 1 micron in grit size, UNLESS you're pursuing extreme mirror polish (and most of that will depend on preceding steps anyway, to fully reduce coarser scratches).

 

[Bigfoot870]

I use Ken Schwartz Emulsions in bot Diamond and CBN and never spray just for the reason your always going to waste some,wether it be a small or large strop just use 3 drops for a small strop like a KME or Edge Pro size and spread it around with your finger and the goes for a larger hand strop just 3 drops onto start and then spread it around and add more to if needed to another area until it is all covered,if you just drop in on from the bottle just start out for the first time using it by putting 3 drops in middle spaced out going one way and spread it you will be able to tell real fast how much more you will need.

Also don't go crazy with the stuff either all you need to do with Kens stuff or sure is just to make sure you get even coverage of the strop and that's it,I got some Poltava CBN paste and I found it has a very sticky waxy feeling to it and it get's onto the blade and without using a bunch of pressure there is no way your going to strop threw the mess I think this it was meant to be used with a buffing wheel,one thing you can try how ever is spread the paste out you has as best you can and use a hair drier and as soon as you see it go liquid spread it around more that's what I do with my Poltava paste and I do it more to get the sticky waxy crap to sink into the leather.

I also use these in the link to spread it the emulsion and paste around,they are called finger cots don't ask me why but I can tell you this the second time I placed an order for them I thought they were called finger condom's and looked for them on ebay and man did I get a surprise what I seen did not look anything what I purchased before the ones I seen were 2 finger jobbies and had bump's on the outside and were for a different kind of spreading around and I'm going to stop there before I get myself banned as this is a family friendly forum LOL.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/100pcs-Dis...tips-Gloves-/232406781893?hash=item361c860fc5

If this is Ken's products, the cost would be too high to get it to my address........eh

https://www.chefknivestogo.com/kenscorner.html

 

[Mo2]

If this is Ken's products, the cost would be too high to get it to my address........eh

It is. Unless your searching for that ultimate edge the other options can work just fine. Or just wait and save up for it.

 

[ekastanis]

I can get S110V down in the teens on the Bess Scale @ 400 Grit SIC.

I am new to sharpening and this is an honest question, although only partially related to the present discussion of sharpening S110V.

Referring to the grit chart, 400 puts the (mean, median?) abrasive particle size in the range of 30 μm. And referring the sharpness chart, a BESS sharpness in the teens puts the apex width at ~0.05 μm. I have read there is no hard & fast relation between the abrasive particle size and the achievable apex width, but this is almost 3 orders of magnitude.

Would this type of sharpening performance be feasible for someone to target? And would this type of performance be achievable with other abrasive media and blade steel combinations?

Thanks

 

[wade7575]

If you order it from Ken the shipping is only 25 bucks to Canada and if you ask to put a lower dollar value on the package he will as well,you also order other thing's to make it worth your while or order 2 or 3 bottles of each and you'll be set for years or just get a few stones with it.

I do not know what the shipping cost is to Canada threw chefknivestogo but they will put anything you want on the box for shipping informantion,just ask them to declare it as gift and or mark the value at 20 bucks Canadian funds because with Canada anything entering the country worth 20 bucks Canadian funds or less is not worth their time to process to collect the tax on such a small amount they are after the bigger dollar amount packages,I know this for certain about the 20 dollar rule is for sure but you need to make sure they declare it as 20 dollars Canadian on the outside of the package and tell them not to put a proof of purchase on the inside and if they do want to tell them to fudge the numbers to match the 20 dollar value.

If this is Ken's products, the cost would be too high to get it to my address........eh

https://www.chefknivestogo.com/kenscorner.html

 

[me2]

I am new to sharpening and this is an honest question, although only partially related to the present discussion of sharpening S110V.

Referring to the grit chart, 400 puts the (mean, median?) abrasive particle size in the range of 30 μm. And referring the sharpness chart, a BESS sharpness in the teens puts the apex width at ~0.05 μm. I have read there is no hard & fast relation between the abrasive particle size and the achievable apex width, but this is almost 3 orders of magnitude.

Would this type of sharpening performance be feasible for someone to target? And would this type of performance be achievable with other abrasive media and blade steel combinations?

Thanks

I believe Ankerson is using a different scale than the one used in the sticky on this subforum. Converting would add 50 to his scores. It's based on the difference between the KN100 tester I think Ankerson uses vs the PT50 series that Wootzblade uses.

 

[Mo2]

found an old thread, Sal says his ceramic is 9.2 on the mohs scale.
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/ceramic-harder-than-carbide.1396535/

his product guide also says...
https://www.spyderco.com/catalog/2009SpydercoCatalog.pdf

Most people associate Spyderco with knives, which is why it surprises many that Spyderco’s initial product was not a knife at all but a ceramic sharpening system called a Tri-Angle Sharpmaker. The process of designing the sharpener started with being granted a patent on this triangle system. The stones themselves are made from Alumina Ceramic. They’re U.S. manufactured in a process combining a bonding agent with alumina particles (that are actually synthetic sapphires 15 to 25 microns in size). We shape them into a triangle, then kiln fire them at more than 3000 degrees F (1649°C). On a Mohs hardness scale, Alumina Ceramic stones measure 9 (out of 10) and don’t require lubricants such as oil or water while using. Our medium grit (brown) stones are open-cell stones (friable) and will wear over time and repeated use.

Their abrasive quality removes steel stock on dull blades and edges requiring re-profiling. Our (white) fine and ultra-fine grit stones are closed-cell ceramics and won’t wear with usage or time. They’re less abrasive, excelling at polishing and professionally finishing edges. Ceramic can shatter or chip if dropped or handled roughly. Alumina ceramic stones are temperature resistant, dishwasher and autoclave safe. Sharpening changes a blades’ shape by removing microscopic steel particles. These particles adhere to the stone and after repeated use the stone loads up, saturated with steel particles. Remove the residue by washing the stones in fresh water, scrub with powdered abrasive cleanser, rinsing and air drying, to restore the stones’ effectiveness.

besides loading up... they should be able to abrade vanadium without issues, no? or are we generally thinking "ceramic" as generic, because its usually not Synthetic Sapphire?

 

[tiguy7]

The mohs scale is kind of crude (relative). The scale goes from 1-10. See the chart in post#13 above. On the mohs scale, Alumina is 9, SiC is 9.5, and Vanadium Carbide higher than 9.5. Sal’s secret formula (9.2) is softer than SiC and WC (Vanadium Carbide), but I use his stuff all the time on non-WC blades.