Sharpening S110V, Are Diamonds A Must?

[Mo2]

Already been done and tested with the Bess Sharpness testers by me, Jason B and some others. There is no difference in sharpness, more to do with sharpening talent.

I can get S110V down in the teens on the Bess Scale @ 400 Grit SIC.

Anything below 50 is insane.

anything higher than 400grit? seems like some folks take them to 1000+ grit. I vary between the two for my blades depending on the tasks.

 

[Ankerson]

anything higher than 400grit? seems like some folks take them to 1000+ grit. I vary between the two for my blades depending on the tasks.

Comes down to talent.

Yeah I have, doesn't really make much difference once you get below 50 BESS.

That's if the person can get it to that point in the 1st place.

It's NOT easy.

Most people can't get under 150.

 

[Ankerson]

The problem with taking actual sharpness measurements is when the results aren't what some think they should be they start attacking the system itself.

And that is what happened, like I said politics.

It started to become more about the system instead of the actual results.

The system is dead accurate.

 

[Lapedog]

Softer materials can actually abrade

B Bigfoot870



By feedback I mean the feel you get from the stone as you sharpen ... as you're used to stones you can probably tell the difference in your coarse and fine stones when you sharpen ... and feel how your knife edges are as you progress ...

the diamonds have a different feel ... the coarer ones especially ... and it took me awhile to get used to that ... and learn it doesn't take just light pressure with diamonds to cut quickly ... once I lightened the pressure I started to get a better feel for them ...

I'm still learning them and prefer the other stones but I do find the diamonds alot faster on the newer harder steels ...

and I have sharpened some newer steels on the other stones I mentioned but it does take longer and Im sure wears on the stones more ...

the DMT continuous diamond stones are closer in feel as you go to finer stones ... or for me they are ...

I doubt you let your knives get dull since you are used to using and sharpening so you could probably get by with a diamond stone or two and diamond paste on a strop as some mentioned ...

JJ

Use water with a little dish soap mixed in on your diamond stones. It makes the feedback waaaaaaay more pleasant. I hated my diamond stones too until I started doing this.

 

[JJ_Colt45]

I did get a recommendation and use a bit of water with simple green it did help with the feel I will agree with that ... after that I'm sure dish soap would work as well.

Use water with a little dish soap mixed in on your diamond stones. It makes the feedback waaaaaaay more pleasant. I hated my diamond stones too until I started doing this.

 

[Lapedog]

I did get a recommendation and use a bit of water with simple green it did help with the feel I will agree with that ... after that I'm sure dish soap would work as well.

The water helps like 10%. The dish soap helps the other 90%. It also helps if your stones are broken in abit

 

[JJ_Colt45]

I am getting used to them ... I don't have alot of steels that need them ... and for me I probably won't get many knives with these newer super steels ...

I'm used to touching them up regularly whether stone or strop ... but I did want to try a few knives that came in steels that finally made me break down and get a few diamond stones ... only the coarser stone was alot different ... but as you said the soap does help ... and I'm sure they improve after a break in ...

mine may never get that much use but I may be wrong ... never know what knife ends up calling to you.

 

[David Martin]

I've been using water with a drop of soap in a 2 oz. squirt bottle. This helps and I don't hear that metal to metal grinding sound.
My regimen has been a x coarse, coarse and fine DMT stones. The edges I've noticed are Slightly better than those coming off my
SiC stones and only slightly faster. But the diamonds will wear to the point where it's no better. It was burr removal that I noticed was a solid step better/ easier to do on the fine diamond. This is countered with, I noticed
wear on the diamond stones. Which cost twice as much as the standard SiC stone. There's just no way diamond stones can last as long as a
2 grit SiC stone. I'll look for a site offering the CBN in the matrix of the stone. The Venev Bonded Diamond stones do not offer the grit I was
looking for, a 5-600. We will discuss this topic often no matter how many times it's brought up. I think some material containing diamond grit in the matrix of the stone will be a better route. Rather than the diamonds being sheared off the base. DM

 

[Chris "Anagarika"]

Read carefully all the good comments and probably do a search of older threads on same subject. I’d add that there are many factors other than carbides hardness vs stone hardness. How hard the pressure used, speed, abrasive being solid (Spyderco ceramics), with binders (waterstones) or loose (strop), edge leading or trailing and all the combinations. It also depends in how one perceives ‘cutting well’. Some like the feel of material ‘explodes’ apart when being zipped sliced, it takes sharp coarse apex. Some like quiet gliding silky smooth when blade is pushed through material, it requires very high polished apex. So it also depends on what one like during use.

I free hand. Used to have problems with even VG10 (Endura). I use DMT and Spyderco UF. Once I improved my technique, VG10 was no longer an issue. A worn EEF DMT however, struggle what I want to achieve with S110V (Manix Blurple) which is smooth dry shaving my face. This level of refinement requires sharp & hard abrasive to sculpt the edge properly. For daily EDU, Jason’s method might work best: DMT C (or Spyderco CBN/Diamond) with 1 micron diamond strop.

Good luck in your try.
PS: I haven’t exhausted all good advices received here in this forum by the masters to get that S110V to my liking, so this is not an advice, just sharing experience.

 

[Alberta Ed]

Diamonds are forever (sorry...). I use DMT bench stones 99.9% of the time, have yet to wear one out after a couple of decades. They work on any steel, even the newest super steels with huge amounts of vanadium/niobium/tungsten/cobalt/unobtanium etc. etc. Basically all you need.

 

[Bigfoot870]

Diamonds are forever (sorry...). I use DMT bench stones 99.9% of the time, have yet to wear one out after a couple of decades. They work on any steel, even the newest super steels with huge amounts of vanadium/niobium/tungsten/cobalt/unobtanium etc. etc. Basically all you need.

Can you suggest a sequence of grits, for stones, and strop paste, that is practical, and won't break the bank?

 

[Bigfoot870]

If you don’t need to reprofile you could get by on one ultrafine sharpmaker rod and go freehand.I often use this rod by itself with s90v or m390/204p/20cv. I sometimes use a dmt green/tan, or a blue/red if I’ve let it get really dull. Dmt double sided diafolds are about $35. The single can be $15 for the 5” or $9 for the keychain versions.

Is there an advantage to using continuous diamond stones, versus the diafolds with the relief holes?

Also, the EZ Lap "diafolds" are less expensive to buy. Are they just as good?

 

[JD Spydo]

Depends on what one uses I suppose.

I use SIC stones on my Edge Pro to do that sort of work, Congress Moldmaster stones, they are VERY hard and cut fast.

I do have 2 Shapton Pro Stones for the Edge Pro, the Mold Masters cut faster.

OK you answered that question but what about good quality finishing stones. Believe it or not I've got one of the better grade older ARkansas Stones (novaculite) that I've found seems to really polish an edge that is already paper cutting sharp. But I've heard that Shapton 8000 grit and above are even better. Does Congress have anything you like in the "finishing" sector? Because I'm definitely getting away from stropping and I'm becoming more convinced that a final finish from a premium grade benchstone will be the way to go.

Also what's your opinion on those "Slurry Stones" like the ones you find in JapanWoodWorker catalog? Anyone else is welcome to answer this too.

 

[Yonose]

The only ones I’ve worked with are the DMT diafold models and the pocket models. Never used a continuous diamond stone or other brands.

 

[Ankerson]

OK you answered that question but what about good quality finishing stones. Believe it or not I've got one of the better grade older ARkansas Stones (novaculite) that I've found seems to really polish an edge that is already paper cutting sharp. But I've heard that Shapton 8000 grit and above are even better. Does Congress have anything you like in the "finishing" sector? Because I'm definitely getting away from stropping and I'm becoming more convinced that a final finish from a premium grade benchstone will be the way to go.

Also what's your opinion on those "Slurry Stones" like the ones you find in JapanWoodWorker catalog? Anyone else is welcome to answer this too.

I don't do polished edges anymore because I don't think it's worth the effort, but the Shapton stones are good.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Is there an advantage to using continuous diamond stones, versus the diafolds with the relief holes?

Also, the EZ Lap "diafolds" are less expensive to buy. Are they just as good?

I'd say EZE-Lap is certainly good enough for the money; they're a pretty good buy. I have one of theirs (400/1200), and it's '1200' side has more closely emulated DMT's 600 ('Fine') in the finish it leaves on bevels. EZE-Lap claims their hones start out working more aggressively early on, and settle into a more refined finish with more use. That may be so; but overall, it's safe to assume they'll seem 'coarser' when new, and for some time afterward, than what you might expect from DMT in a similarly-rated grit.

At the finishing end, I've personally liked DMT's higher-grit options the best (600, 1200, 8000) for the sharpness and cleanliness of the edge produced, with minimal burring issues. EZE-Lap's options are still pretty good overall; but I tend to favor DMT at the finishing end of things. The EZE-Laps seem to require a little more edge cleanup in finishing, getting rid of burrs & such. It's not a major issue, but I've noticed it every time I compare one vs. the other. The difference in price might mostly reflect differences in quality of the diamond grit itself, between them. It's hard to beat DMT in that regard.

Regarding DMT's 'continuous' vs 'interrupted' surface hones, if your touch is good with a diamond hone, either can work equally well. Many will prefer the continous for their feedback, which can feel buttery-smooth at higher grit. But that's a subjective thing, varying from one user to another, and won't necessarily make a difference in edge finish or sharpness. I have & use both, and don't have any issues or gripes with either type.

 

[Bigfoot870]

Thank you very much, David.

I plan to strop, to finish, so I won't be getting into any super fine stones.

Can you suggest a good diamond micron size, or two, for stropping?

 

[maximus83]

To directly respond to OP's questions, despite all the rabbit trails with our past 'family debates' getting pulled in :

* Yes, you should use diamonds to get best sharpening results with steels that have high vanadium carbide content. The abrasives you choose DO matter. A majority of our pro sharpeners here in the forum recommend using diamonds for best results, and they can choose any type of abrasive they want to get best results for their paying customers--that should tell us something. And to be even more specific: I'd suggest using diamonds for any steel that has 4% or higher vanadium carbides, as well as other super hard steels like D2. My experience is you'll get best results doing that.
* DMT is the best all-around brand I have found for diamond abrasives. There are others like Atoma that I've had good luck with, but DMT is the leader and you usually won't go wrong with that brand.
* You may not need full-size bench stones for your small number of knives that require diamonds. As David said. In your case I'd get those small 2x6 DMT continuous in XC, C, F, and EF grits. Or to go even more portable, get the 2-side folding DMT sharpeners, they make one in XC/C and another in F/EF, that'd cost you around $60 total.
* For stropping: 1 micron CBN is a good all-purpose stropping compound. I use it, and I know that Jason B recommends the one micron size.

 

[Chris "Anagarika"]

I have 3 credit carda continuous DMT, C, F, EF. An old worn EEF and also one diafold EF & EEF. The last two are my touch up stones.

For heavy reprofiling, I recently bought a cheap 400/1000 DMD (China) that leaves very deep scratches (not well broken in yet).
In the past I relied on a Taedea 360/600 folding diamond, but it’s a bit worn already and not working effectively, partially because I wasn’t aware that diamond needs to be used with light touch if you want it forever .

 

[David Martin]

Yes, and as someone has posted; you use a light touch so you don't fracture the diamond and your stones will last. This technique also causes
the grinding to go slower. Just getting the whole picture in focus. The real problem is diamonds will fracture. DM