Sharpening

[Emery E Mitchamore]

I don't have any ceramic stones because I can't find any use of them. As I understand they are used to refine the edge at the end of the sharpening process. I also could be wrong.
One thing I know for sure; those ceramic stones/hones are not good to be used on high carbide steels like s110v, s90v, maxamet, K390 and similar. Those stones do not cut carbides but crush them and make microscopic cracks in the edge of the knife.
If someone is interested I can attach the link to the article with high magnification photos.

Regarding Work Sharp Precision Adjust;
I was just looking at photos of the sharpener. I have no idea if you can get additional stones with finer grits. If that was me I would just make a new stone holder and buy a set of cheap diamond stones if I would want finer grit then #600. But that's me.

What can I say about finer grit then #600;
For my sharpening system I have:
-diamond stones: #8o, #120, #180, #240, #320, #400, #600, #800, #1200, #2000, #3000
-one water stone #3000
-leather strops with: 0.5, 3, 7, 15 and 30 micron diamond compound
I have done a few polished edges but I didn't like them. I made my PF719 (12c27 steel) hair whittling but found no use of such edge.

How do I sharpen my knives lately:
-Kitchen knives: #240 diamond stone and strop with 7 micron diamond compound
-EDC knives: #240 or #320 diamond stone and strop with 7 micron diamond compound

Thanks for the reply. I expect that I'll get more replies/information regarding the ceramics but I find it interesting that you go from 320 to stropping. Stropping is new to me. I have memories of my childhood barber Frank stropping his razor on the big strap hanging at his bar but that's it.

 

[Emery E Mitchamore]

BTW, I like your PF719. I had not seen it so I looked it up. Nice clean design!

 

[MeDoctor]

I use the Worksharp Precision Adjust Elite and a Sharpmaker from Spyderco. It’s simple.

View attachment 2326300View attachment 2326301

+get the diamond rods for the sharpmaker. I build my edges with my Edge Pro professional, then maintain them with the sharpmaker. The diamond rods are worth the price.

 

[MeDoctor]

THIS!!!!!!!!!

Don't rely on gizmos, they are just a crutch that will in time cripple your ability to sharpen your knife anywhere, anytime. Its not that hard to free hand sharpen a knife, its a lot simpler than you think. The manufactures or the gizmos want you to think its complicated, so you will waste money and time on their overpriced and over engineered gizmos.

I half agree. Learn to sharpen freehand, but don't discount the value of "gizmos".

 

[MeDoctor]

~7 bucks at Baryonyx, this pocket stone is good enough for all the knives pictured here. Cheap and easy.

Not worth a hoot on modern supersteels hardened to RC 60+, but great on the softer stuff.

 

[TheOne45]

I expect that I'll get more replies/information regarding the ceramics

I was looking at 'Northwest_Knife_Guy' videos on Youtube. I like his sharpening videos; in some of them he's using ceramic rod but I can't remember his comments regarding ceramic.
When you sharpen a knife with whetstones or diamond stones or other ''cutting'' stones you remove material by cutting.
With ceramic (if I understand correctly) the material is removed mostly by adhesive wear. That's why ceramic does not go well with modern steels full of Vanadium and other types of carbides.

 

[TheOne45]

I find it interesting that you go from 320 to stropping

Yeah; you know how it goes….speaking for myself...each thing I start with (Hi-Fi, Photography, Welding, Woodworking,…you name it) starts simple and then all of a sudden goes complicated.
With sharpening you start simple (lots of years back) with one stone and ''rolled newspaper'' strop. Then they invent internet and you find out you just can't live a normal life if you knife edge does not shine and whittle hairs so you start experimenting with all those fine stones and strops with all sort of compounds you can buy. After some time you got tired of all this and you just go back to simple things....you know;
-one coarse stone to fast regrind factory edge to your leaking or to grind out nicks and dents
- one little less coarse stone which cuts fast to sharpen/refresh the edge
-one strop to remove the burr

 

[TheOne45]

Stropping is new to me. I have memories of my childhood barber Frank stropping his razor on the big strap hanging at his bar but that's it.

Those hanging strops can be also used for knives but I use leather glued to a hard surface. For my ''hand'' strops I use plywood, MDF or spruce wood because it's at the reach of my hand. For my 'guided system' strops I made blanks out of 8mm plexi glass and I glued the leather with double sided tape so I can replace it if needed.

A note: What I wrote below is strictly my opinion. If you don't agree it's fine by me.
I'm mechanical engineer and when somethings goes wrong for example with tooling (the tool breaks or wears prematurely) I want to know why. Was it a bad heat threatment? A crack in material? Seomething else? Thats why we have a big lab in our company. They will make all needed analysis with fancy microscopes and other machines. Assumptions does not go well with me. I want to know exactly what is going on.

That's why I want to know and see what's going on with the edge when sharpening the knife. Common ''internet wisdom'' like ''We all know how to sharpen a knife. My grandfather ….'' does not go well with me. A lot of things happens on microscopic level on a few microns of the edge and this can not be seen with 30x or 60x loupe or even with the finest optical microscope. You will need an electronic microscope.
There is a guy Todd and I believe he is a PhD in Physics and he works in a lab which has an electronic microscope. He is also fond of classic razors and he shaves with them. He made a scientific approach to razor honing. On his site there is a ton of articles with photos what's going on on the last few microns when honing the edge. I'm grateful for all his analysis and photos and now I understand and I can imagine what's happening when I sharpen or stropping my knife.

He also did an experiment. He sharpened his razor only with #320 diamond plate and strop and he got very sharp and keen edge.
So I asked myself…why bother with all those fine hones.
But that's just me.

There is also a guy on Youtube called Outdoors55.
He can get a very sharp edge on his knives only using DMT coarse or DMT fine doamond plate and a leather strop with 3 micron diamond compound.
Seeing his videos also made me think and I said to myself….Why the hell not. Let's try it.

 

[TheOne45]

BTW, I like your PF719. I had not seen it so I looked it up. Nice clean design!

You won't believe it but it looks even nicer when you hold it in hands.

I could add;
I put shinny, clean and whittling sharp edge on it. It shaves, push-cuts newspaper cross fibers, cuts toilet paper but it does not bite into the material. When I do 'three finger test' fingers slide across the edge and there is no bite.
I want my working knives to bite into the material. I need a working knife at work; sometimes I need to cut those heavy duty corrugated card board boxes wrapped with those black plastic strips or to cut some zip ties and similar.
That's why I like ''toothy'' edges with those micro teeth. If I do a 'three finger test' on my working knife I can feel the aggression of those micro teeth – they want to bite into my fingers.
You can do 'three finger test' on one of those utility knives with smooth edge just to get a feeling. They suppose to have this smooth sharp 'no teeth' edge. But do it gently and don't cut yourself.

I can give you a hint how I sharpen my EDC knives. Let's say I'm using my DIY guided sharpening system.
-I clamp the knife and put my #320 diamond hone on the holder
-I find the angle I want to put on the edge with my digital angle meter
-I start sharpening one side till I get the burr
-Then I flip the knife and do the same on the other side…I sharpen till I get the burr
I try to make the burr as small as possible - just big enough to feel it or see it under strong light just that I'm sure I sharpened the blade from heal to tip.
-Then I do gentle edge leading passes (no force used) - 1 stroke on one side then 1 stroke on the other side. I repeat this till I'm satisfied. I never count how many strokes I do but I would say from 5 to 20. I observe the edge with my 60x loupe to see what's going on with the burr. This way I try to minimize the burr as much as possible.
-The next step is strop. In most cases I use leather strop with 7 micron diamond compound.
I put my 'leather on plexi glass' strop on holder and first check the angle. The strop has not the same thickness as my diamond file so I measure angle to be sure the strop is at the same angle as diamond file was.
Then I increase the angle for 1.5 to 2 degrees and start stropping…..light alternating strokes. How many strokes? Just enough I can see no bur with my 100to150x pocket magnifier. At this stage there could still be a microscopic burr you can't see with 150x magnification. I gently drag a piece of wood a few times cross the edge. This will or tear the microscopic burr off or fold it. I try the edge with newspaper. If it cuts it cross fibers I'm OK and if doesn't I do a few passes with the strop.

That's how I get burr free edge with micro teeth. The knife still cuts paper towel but I can feel, how those teeth aggressively grab the fibers of the towel.

 

[Emery E Mitchamore]

Those hanging strops can be also used for knives but I use leather glued to a hard surface. For my ''hand'' strops I use plywood, MDF or spruce wood because it's at the reach of my hand. For my 'guided system' strops I made blanks out of 8mm plexi glass and I glued the leather with double sided tape so I can replace it if needed.

A note: What I wrote below is strictly my opinion. If you don't agree it's fine by me.
I'm mechanical engineer and when somethings goes wrong for example with tooling (the tool breaks or wears prematurely) I want to know why. Was it a bad heat threatment? A crack in material? Seomething else? Thats why we have a big lab in our company. They will make all needed analysis with fancy microscopes and other machines. Assumptions does not go well with me. I want to know exactly what is going on.

That's why I want to know and see what's going on with the edge when sharpening the knife. Common ''internet wisdom'' like ''We all know how to sharpen a knife. My grandfather ….'' does not go well with me. A lot of things happens on microscopic level on a few microns of the edge and this can not be seen with 30x or 60x loupe or even with the finest optical microscope. You will need an electronic microscope.
There is a guy Todd and I believe he is a PhD in Physics and he works in a lab which has an electronic microscope. He is also fond of classic razors and he shaves with them. He made a scientific approach to razor honing. On his site there is a ton of articles with photos what's going on on the last few microns when honing the edge. I'm grateful for all his analysis and photos and now I understand and I can imagine what's happening when I sharpen or stropping my knife.

He also did an experiment. He sharpened his razor only with #320 diamond plate and strop and he got very sharp and keen edge.
So I asked myself…why bother with all those fine hones.
But that's just me.

There is also a guy on Youtube called Outdoors55.
He can get a very sharp edge on his knives only using DMT coarse or DMT fine doamond plate and a leather strop with 3 micron diamond compound.
Seeing his videos also made me think and I said to myself….Why the hell not. Let's try it.

Sometimes it gets a bit spooky when something "out there" correlates chronologically with something personal. I'm also a mechanical engineer and just this morning I commented (to my wife of 53 years) that most people don't know why I "just want to understand" the things I'm doing. As I said near the beginning of this thread, getting a knife sharp is relatively easy but I just want to understand the processes. Now if I could just understand why I need to POSSESS so many.....

 

[Emery E Mitchamore]

OK, another sharpening question: Do we assume that most folders have been factory sharpened to 20 degrees or do we need to find out before we try to improve the factory edge? If so, how?

 

[Another Shepherd]

OK, another sharpening question: Do we assume that most folders have been factory sharpened to 20 degrees or do we need to find out before we try to improve the factory edge? If so, how?

Very few factory edges are 20 degrees on both sides. If you want to match the factory angle, use the marker method, or a laser goniometer if you have one.
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/knives-with-the-factory-bevel-lopsided-by-20-or-more.1948303/
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/factory-bevel-angles-on-a-bunch-of-knives.1948177/

 

[cudgee]

Yes the premise that most knives come from the factory with a 20 degree bevel on both sides is a falsehood. In fact very few even have the same bevel angle per side.

 

[Old Biker]

Factory edges often vary several degrees from one side to the other, and also from heal to tip. You should assume that on any knife you use a lot, You will need to reprofile the edge to suit your liking. With a guided system it is pretty easy to see the variation in the factory edge. When you set the machine to match the edge on one part of the blade, and it doesn't match elsewhere, it is easy to see. With freehand sharpening it might not be as apparent.

O.B.

 

[Emery E Mitchamore]

Then I'd be inclined to conclude a few things: Manufacturers think the factory edge doesn't matter a great deal to customers; that they/we will refine the edge to our own liking and/or we won't be using the knives - just admiring them. Of course it's possible that most buyers either don't know what a really sharp knife is like or don't NEED a really sharp knife. I guess I'm one of them because the knife I'm currently working on will be my first SHARP knife.

BTW, I bought a Work Sharp Ken Onion knife grinder setup a few years ago and used it for the first time today. It will be very handy for lots of tools but I won't be using it for my better knives. Like freehand, it requires developed skill to do a good job. The guided systems allow excellent results with less experience.

 

[Another Shepherd]

Then I'd be inclined to conclude a few things: Manufacturers think the factory edge doesn't matter a great deal to customers; that they/we will refine the edge to our own liking and/or we won't be using the knives - just admiring them. Of course it's possible that most buyers either don't know what a really sharp knife is like or don't NEED a really sharp knife.

I have measured the sharpness of about 300 non-custom knives, either just out of the box or off the dealer's shelf, using an Edge-On-Up PT50A. Two hundred had BESS scores, averaged over 5 or more measurements, ranging from 73 to 205 grams. That is sharp enough for most practical purposes, although some people here would be unsatisfied. Another 50 knives had scores of 255 or less, plenty sharp for people who are not devoted knife fans. There were 35 knives with scores over 300, which is the limit at which I consider a knife to be definitely in need of sharpening (the prices of these knives ranged from $1 to $374). There were only 10 with scores over 500, which Knife Grinders, Australia, considers actually dull, rather than just not satisfactorily sharp.

Angles are another matter. Hardly anybody will notice the difference between a blade that is 20 degrees on both sides and one that 22:18 degrees on the two sides, until it comes time to sharpen the knife. Then it would depend on the sharpening technique. I would not notice that difference doing freehand sharpening, although some people would. Using the marker method with a guided sharpener where you can flip the knife back and forth, the difference would be clear. I think that the difference in cutting ability would be negligible unless you require very precise cuts. In my experience, if a blade is sharp and the inclusive angle is 30 degrees or less, it will cut pretty well even if the grind is lopsided.

If the inclusive angle is really wide, that does seem to reduce cutting ability and edge retention. For example, I have a Spartan Blades Enyo Elite Gold Grade with CPM-S35VN that is 28 degrees per side; even after sharpening it, it never cut very well. The cheaper Enyo at 23 degrees per side cuts much better. One of these days, I will reprofile both of them. Likewise, my Spyderco Subway Bowie with LC200N at 28:25 does not cut well with a BESS score of 227. On the other hand, a Civivi Cogent with 14C28N at 25:23 degrees, BESS 187, and blade thickness of 0.118 inches is one of my best cardboard slicers, almost as good as a Bugout with S30V, 15:15 degrees, BESS 159, and 0.09 blade thickness. I do not know why the Cogent is that good.

Knives are complicated.

 

[Emery E Mitchamore]

If anyone is following my journey to understand the sharpening process so that it can be relatively repeatable, here's where I am: I progressed (with the WSPA and aftermarket clamp support) down from 320 to 600, skipped the ceramic and used aftermarket 30 micron and 12 micron films, periodically testing with paper slices. The slices seemed to become LESS repeatable, so what's up? Upon visual inspection (15X, because all I had) I found a small nick that I had not noticed earlier. It now appears that the paper was catching on that nick. So I went quickly back through the 600, 30 micron, 12 micron. The CM154 Drop Bear at 20 degrees slices pretty well now but not as well as my Spyderco PM2 factory grind. A couple other knives are better and most are comparable. I think that just for fun I'll test another 20 or so knives of different types. Most are "factory" edge, but some have had some sloppy freehand sharpening like my dad taught me about 70 years ago (using the same stones).

After some freehand work on the WorkSharp Ken Onion knife grinder, I concluded that a guided system is the only way I'd work on my better blades so I ordered a WSPA Pro. Maybe there will be further refinement from there but that will depend on more experience and understanding.

I greatly appreciate the suggestions and information I have received on this forum and, maybe even more, the civility and sophistication, compared to what you see on other sites.

 

[Another Shepherd]

If anyone is following my journey to understand the sharpening process so that it can be relatively repeatable, here's where I am:

How are you deburring?

 

[Emery E Mitchamore]

How are you deburring?

Good question. I'm unable to reliably detect the burr on the last two films. Sometimes, very gently, with my fingernail. Right now the only strop I have is the one that came on the Work Sharp Field Sharpener (Strop Block on order) so I'm just doing a very light stroke to remove whatever is there.

 

[TheOne45]

I didn't want to start a new thread so I thought it won't hurt if I post my question here.
Lets say that I need to sharpen my knife but only thing available is my folding pocket sharpener with #320 and #600 diamond plate.
How would I get more or less burr free edge only with my folding sharpener?