SHTF Gun

Well, I wish I could go with something "woodsmansy" like a good levergun, or even my Mosin Nagant (primary hunting gun right now), but I really feel better picking my AK if other Humans are a part of the equation in any way, shape or form.

That, and my Glock 21 on my person make a great combo.
 
SHTF Gun? What kind of S and what sort of F??
There are far too many factors to just say "This one" for all cases.

I am first a foremost a gun guy, but they are just tools....some are better for certain things then others. I always liked the quote:
"When you did to do something you go to the toolbox and get the right tool for the job."
I've gone around and round on this one before with some of my buddies. Frankly, the average person would be very well armed with a 30-30 carbine and leave it at that. All the whiz-bang tactical crap is a lot of fun, and the gaming is a lot of fun, but for the most part I doubt this foolishness will stack up in the real world. People tend to forget when they are getting super-ninja para-military that the military does NOT operate in a vaccum. A solider is a member of a unit, team, squad, platoon, and so forth. There is other armed and trained people there with him...there are complimentary arms (grenade launchers, SAWs), there are support arms (mortars, SMAWs) and heavy support in the form of air, armor, and artillery. Not to mention there is a huge logistic chain to keep the troops fed, housed, armed, and otherwise supported. Inteligence gathering and a Command structure to make sense of it (I know, stop laughing) and implement plans.
A squad is not alone in any sense of the word. If I recall correctly the logistics chain equated to something along the lines of: Eight men in support for every one that goes into combat. Unless you have that kind of all around support then....YOU SHOULD NOT BEING TRYING TO USE MILITARY PHILOSOPHY!!

Anyone that thinks they are going to get a couple of their buddies together after SHTF, men they have never trained with (and prehaps have never really "trained" at all) and go forth to perform house clearing and urban combat need to have their heads checked.

Having said all of that......I'll take my FAL. :D
 
falnovice said:
SHTF Gun? What kind of S and what sort of F??
There are far too many factors to just say "This one" for all cases.

I am first a foremost a gun guy, but they are just tools....some are better for certain things then others. I always liked the quote:
"When you did to do something you go to the toolbox and get the right tool for the job."
I've gone around and round on this one before with some of my buddies. Frankly, the average person would be very well armed with a 30-30 carbine and leave it at that. All the whiz-bang tactical crap is a lot of fun, and the gaming is a lot of fun, but for the most part I doubt this foolishness will stack up in the real world. People tend to forget when they are getting super-ninja para-military that the military does NOT operate in a vaccum. A solider is a member of a unit, team, squad, platoon, and so forth. There is other armed and trained people there with him...there are complimentary arms (grenade launchers, SAWs), there are support arms (mortars, SMAWs) and heavy support in the form of air, armor, and artillery. Not to mention there is a huge logistic chain to keep the troops fed, housed, armed, and otherwise supported. Inteligence gathering and a Command structure to make sense of it (I know, stop laughing) and implement plans.
A squad is not alone in any sense of the word. If I recall correctly the logistics chain equated to something along the lines of: Eight men in support for every one that goes into combat. Unless you have that kind of all around support then....YOU SHOULD NOT BEING TRYING TO USE MILITARY PHILOSOPHY!!

Anyone that thinks they are going to get a couple of their buddies together after SHTF, men they have never trained with (and prehaps have never really "trained" at all) and go forth to perform house clearing and urban combat need to have their heads checked.

Having said all of that......I'll take my FAL. :D
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LOL, Fal. Good post. I hope you're past "novice" level with that FAL by now...:D

However, if you're going to try to defend your home, you'd better learn how to do it. Solo. Which is very different, as you said, than team tactics.
 
At home, 12 ga. with #4 buckshot as primary & Glock 23 on hip stoked with 165 gr. Golden Sabers as backup.

On the move, either 10/22 with 25 rd. mags & Glock 23, or Marlin 30/30 & Glock 23.

As an aside, going solo would be just stupid if at all avoidable. So a mixed load out would be best. A few shotguns with 00 or 000, some accurate rifles with decent volume of fire, and full power sidearms for all. Ammo compatibility is also an issue to address.
 
The answer, as always, is "it depends". Here's a few possible scenarios:

1) Stuck in the woods for a few days? A .22 rifle or sporting shotgun would help provide dinner.

2) Stuck in the woods in Alaska? See #1, plus a .45-70 rifle to keep from providing dinner for the bears.

3) Stuck in the city during a riot? The .45-70 again, plus lots of ammo. Okay, you can substitute almost any centerfire rifle, but you'll still want lots of ammo. And some long poles, so you can create a perimeter with heads on pikes. This will help slow ammo consumption.

4) Home defense? Whatever "big enough" pistol or short-barrel shotgun you can shoot under pressure. Try not to go smaller than a 20-gauge, or a .38 w/+P ammo.

5) Personal defense? See #4.

6) Foreign soldiers on the horizon? See #3, and add extra ammo. Hopefully your rifle has a good scope.

Picking a gun is sort of like buying insurance. Pick the right policy for the likely disaster. The guy on the mountaintop ain't worried about floods, and a .22 rifle ain't much help against bears or foreign invaders.
 
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I always thought that unloading a shotgun's chamber - the loud way - would be more effective... but I have never owned a shotgun.

My SHTF/Zombie attack firearm is a S&W 625JM - a 4" six-shot .45 ACP (moonclips) - and a Tupperware container with 30 loaded moonclips near it. In my closet is the .223 ammo box with 105 loaded moonclips - that's a total of 810 rounds of ball ammo. I have more ammo, of course, but that's it for moonclips. Bet y'all with your rude-case-tossers don't have a fraction of that many rounds loaded and ready to go. And don't forget, Jerry Miculek can fire/unload/reload/fire a total of 12 rounds from a 625 and hit in the 10 ring at 10 yd in 2.99 seconds! Of course, I aint him... make that minutes for me.

Now, let me know when I need to load my 'assault' rifle... a Puma 24" SS M1892 in .45 Colt. It'll hold 12 + 1, so watch out! Of course, it does take a while to load. I got rid of my M1, SKSs, etc. Still have a couple of .22 bolts. I know, I know... I need an AR or an AK... I've been buying too many knives.

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Stainz
 
The only thing I would consider is a .22 pistol for sure and a .22 rifle if feasible. Got to be able to pack a quite a bit of ammo if it's an extended stay. Hiding out is your only real chance if the numbers of bad guys is a large group or force. If you have to fight it probably won't last long in a head to head conflict. It's different if you have a large enough force on your side, then military type weapons might make sense. Been there, Still here!
 
SHTF gun? Seems mostly in home SD, so I'll start there. I used to believe that racking a shell on a 12ga would scare the spine right out of an intruder and maybe it might on some. Then I figured out that he wouldn't be there unless he had some huevos going for him, so I started thinking about home SD tactics and tools that work. Since I don't pretend to know much about any of it and the fact that I'm limited on the tools that I have on hand, the 12ga Remington is loaded with 00buckshot and because it is a bird gun with 28" barrel and full stock, I wouldn't be venturing out into the darkness with it, leaving my family to fend for themselves as I chase down a ghost, maybe getting myself killed in the process. I would however have to leave the bedroom to make sure that whomever it is, doesn't get into the childrens room, or their mothers room. For this I would have a .380 loaded with Winchesters Ranger Talon, or Cor-bon PD ammunition. Enough to bring down an intruder, but with limited penetration, so I'm not shooting through intruder, through walls and killing somebody on the outside.

For outside of the home SHTF situations, I thought about the 12ga and carrying a variety of shells and would have them with me in the vehicle no doubt, but I'm thinking that a .22lr with accurate ammunition and high capacity tube magazine (18+1) would be a good choice for wilderness survival (food & SD) out to 100-150 yards (pushing it a bit). That way I can carry 500 rounds of ammo and not think twice about it, where with a shotgun, I would be limited by bulk and weight if on foot. I would also have a couple of sidearms, one on the belt and one hanging from a shoulder holster. On the belt is a .45acp and the other is a .380acp, both are 7+1 with extra mag.
 
udtjim said:
The only thing I would consider is a .22 pistol for sure and a .22 rifle if feasible. Got to be able to pack a quite a bit of ammo if it's an extended stay. Hiding out is your only real chance if the numbers of bad guys is a large group or force. If you have to fight it probably won't last long in a head to head conflict. It's different if you have a large enough force on your side, then military type weapons might make sense. Been there, Still here!
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Jim,

Your voice of experience is particularly relevant here, and we are lucky to have you sharing it with us. Thanks for being here, and for offering your insight. :thumbup:
 
Brian Jones said:
Jim,

Your voice of experience is particularly relevant here, and we are lucky to have you sharing it with us. Thanks for being here, and for offering your insight. :thumbup:
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No offense intended, but what is Jim's experience that brings such valued insight?
 
dipbait said:
I guess im not your average scumbag ,cause it would scare the crap out of me.
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BINGO ! We have a winner !

The problem is, most people assign their OWN thoughts, beliefs and motivations to other people. IE; we expect the other guy to do what we would do in the same situation.

For example, we wouldn't be breaking into someone's house in the first place! Since the other guy has already done something that we would not do, how can we expect him to react the same way we would?

He could be drunk, high, crazy, incredibly stupid or any combination thereof.

There was the case of a robber holding up a.........gunstore.......while 3 or more cops were inside. The robber walked past 2-3 of the marked squad cars parked out front, but he came in anyway. Once the patrons realized the guy was serious, umpteen people opened up on him.

But you or I would never consider robbing a gunstore in the first place.

.
 
dougo83 said:
No offense intended, but what is Jim's experience that brings such valued insight?
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The difference between war time and having a team vs. not. Actual combat experience is the best teacher, period. Plus, read the first three letters of his screen name and look at his avatar.
 
Brian Jones said:
The difference between war time and having a team vs. not. Actual combat experience is the best teacher, period. Plus, read the first three letters of his screen name and look at his avatar.
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Brian, the reason I asked is because neither the SN nor avatar ring any kind of bell to me.
 
I am reading Lone Survivor right now by Marcus Lutrell... Hats off to you Jim!! Too damned few like you.

SHTF- term is much like Survival, Tactical & alot of terms that are over used. No two incidents will be exactly the same so "planning" is useless. Creative thinking is the tool I focus on- helps me to adapt to different circumstances.

Conversation seems to be veering toward home defense alot. I was given very good advice from a learned man once who told me to always be willing to pass on what was passed to me... never look at HD in a single layer= me with a gun. Start with a perimeter, not concertina-- a neat clean yard without hiding places(bushes/shadows near the house) + motion detector flood lights. The the shell, good quality doors; strong deadbolts on doors and good window locks(Especially on ground level windows)- entry sensors for doors and window- you can get cheap ones that work just fine. Interior, decide where the "no pass" point for an intruder is- I live in a ranch so the no pass line is the end of the hall before any of the bedroom doors. Master bedroom is at the closed end of the hall- at 7" height on the end wall, there is a 500W Halogen floodlight that points down the hall(useful in a smoke filled hall or to blind an oncomer)- I will be under that light behind a very old/solid hall table(on rollers so I can push it ahead of me down the hallway) full of old phone books= concealment, cover and my attacker is staring into the floodlight. During this, my wife is on the phone to 911 or if this were truly SHTF(no help available) she would be moving behind me down the hall to collect the kids back to the MB. None of this costs much money, nor does it get in the way of a normal day. ** This is just meant as an example for creative thinking in your own situation- something might help-- maybe nothing applies but I feel better offering it than not.

2Door
 
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If we'er talking talking home defense than a scattergun all the way...if were' talking moving around in an end of the world bug out scenario...I'd go lever gun in .357 mag with a ruger gp-100 chambered in the same, and a buck mark .22 lr as my 3 gun battery..interchangable ammo for defense and hunting and the 22 is light enough and ammo is light enough and accessible enough to keep me in squirrels for a life time.
 
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