SHTF rifle prerequisites

[sodak]

I shot a LOT of 50 cal M2's in the Army. No way I'm putting it up against my shoulder, I don't care how many muzzle brakes you drill into it. If you do, you're a better man than me!

 

[David E]

In the book Tunnel in the Sky one of the characters is trying to decide which type of gun to take on a survival test. His sister, who is well experienced in survival already, tells him that a gun can make you think you are a hunter and get yourself in over your head. While not having one reminds you that you are the hunted and makes you more cautious of your situation.

With all due respect, this is stupid advice in the book, and stupid advice in general. A proper state of mind would address the incredibly naive "Hey! I got a rifle, so I'm invincible!" mentality. At least, for most mature folks.

I believe this is basically good advice, espicially with the military type rifles. Having a 30 round mag may make you feel better, but what are the chances you will need it, and if you need it, unless you are part of a larger group, how long would you last?

Of course, it depends on the variables, but when you need it, you need it bad. How long could you last? Presuming you're a cool head and accurate shot, you'd have 20-30 less to worry about while you reload.

I believe the better approach is to remain low profile whenever possible, for as long as possible.

On this, we agree.

That being said my choice would be a .22 rifle.

Unless I was in the woods and didn't have to worry one iota about other people trying to hurt/kill me, then maybe. Then again, I'd have a .22 pistol, so I wouldn't as much need for a .22 rifle.

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[David E]

Even with that knowledge and the knowledge of a specific scenario, I wouldn't want one. I want a few in a designated cache.

That makes this rifle a good rifle to carry only for the tasks for which you need it. Any other time, leave it in the cache with the ammo.

Now, even though this weapon doesn't weigh very much at all in most configurations, it would still be better left with your cache when not being used for a task.

As with just about everything else though, other than taking it out for use for a certain task, it's best left in a cache.

Moral of the story is this: Have more than one. Keep them in a cache. Take one out at a time for whatever specific task you need to use it for. If you have to change cache locations, .

You refer to a cache 6 times. ( I reproduced only 5)

HOW do you plan the location for your cache(s) ? How many? How far away? What if the "trouble" is between you and your cache? What's the backup plan if you can't reach your cache(s) for whatever reason?

What if the cache(s) is pilfered?

Just curious !

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[SpookyPistolero]

I stand corrected. . . although they are all single shots?

Not all are single shots, but to obtain multi-shot capability you have to permanently alter the magwell on the lower.

 

[BlackHills]

You refer to a cache 6 times. ( I reproduced only 5)

HOW do you plan the location for your cache(s) ? How many? How far away? What if the "trouble" is between you and your cache? What's the backup plan if you can't reach your cache(s) for whatever reason?

What if the cache(s) is pilfered?

Just curious !

.

Good questions. :thumbup:

Personally I'd never leave my weapon behind unless I had more than one and there were people where I left the weapon. Losing a weapon in that kind of situation is about the worst thing you can have happen.

As for the thing about the SKS being too heavy to carry very long, after spending a few years humping a M60 and M2 I think I can handle a SKS (though my choice would be an AR).

 

[Runs With Scissors]

...............

 

[BlackHills]

What I really need is an exercise program that will enable me to carry a 1,600 gun safe and all it's contents through the woods.

You could always buy a mule or two.

 

[Toxie]

Bottom one, in .223 with a hand-lapped cryo-treated barrel. Kinda the quintessential SHTF rifle, since that's what it was designed for.

If not that because it's a zombie invasion, then:

 

[Fletcher Knives]

You refer to a cache 6 times. ( I reproduced only 5)

HOW do you plan the location for your cache(s) ? How many? How far away? What if the "trouble" is between you and your cache? What's the backup plan if you can't reach your cache(s) for whatever reason?

What if the cache(s) is pilfered?

Just curious !

.

Good questions. :thumbup:

Personally I'd never leave my weapon behind unless I had more than one and there were people where I left the weapon. Losing a weapon in that kind of situation is about the worst thing you can have happen.

As for the thing about the SKS being too heavy to carry very long, after spending a few years humping a M60 and M2 I think I can handle a SKS (though my choice would be an AR).

The location of your cache is up to you. It can be where you're living or somewhere else. When I refer to a "cache", I'm just referring to any designated place for storing weapons, ammo, dry goods, whatever you want. If you choose to have your cache separate and there's trouble between you and the cache, or it gets pilfered, you're screwed. That's something to take into consideration when deciding where it should be.

I carried heavy crap for several years also. It doesn't stop my rifle from getting heavy when I have to carry it for a long time. I spent a long time having to deal with extreme heat everyday. Doesn't mean I don't get uncomfortable when it's toasty outside.

By the way, including the quoting, I said "cache" 8 times in this post for everyone keeping count.

This post is meant to be happy in case anyone reads it and takes it too seriously.

 

[Jeff Clark]

M1 Garand.

 

[vic2367]

ar-15

 

[zenheretic]

I have now reached my final conclusion. The search for the perfect "SHTF" rifle is futile.

What I really need is an exercise program that will enable me to carry a 1,600 gun safe and all it's contents through the woods.

Back in the day; we always joked you would need a large wheel barrow to carry all the different firearms/ammo.

So what is the best SHTF wheel barrow?

 

[hannibal lecter spyderco]

Hmmm I read all of the postings, and I figure I would weigh in on some aspects that I have not seen mentioned. First, we have to define what shitf is to us, for me its massive flooding in new orleans or LA riots, where it becomes the fight for the fittest. the ability of shooting someone at 300 yards away has little interest to me. Most rifles that can do that constantly are not automatic assault type rifles, which is the rifle of choice in shitf situation. This of course narrows down the possible choices quite a bit. I would go for high quality ak 47 not as accurate once you get past 100 yards its cheap, big ass bullet tough as a tank. AR-15 accurate gun compared to ak, bullet isn't as powerful as ak, gun isn't as reliable as ak. "FN ar-15 style assault rifle is the one you want to get not the colt version" HK products are too expensive and if you go for the uzi 9 mm is more for close quarters combat than just hosing people down in urban type of fight. I would pick my ak over ar15 any day of the week if the situation were like new orleans full of water etc... you drop an ar15 in mud or water i think you would be in a world of hurt. You drop an ak in crap you can pick it up pull the trigger and hear bang. "keep in mind that anything over a 100 yards become spray gun with an ak 47

 

[Idaho Jarhead]

What ever you might want, you had better hurry up and get it and the ammo before the Dem's get in office.

Probably the best piece of advice in this thread!

 

[hannibal lecter spyderco]

The point of a handgun when the SHTF is NOT that it's lightweight. It's the it's concealable!!! Like I said earlier, if 'it' really does happen, one of the biggest problems will be not getting picked up by authorities, and not getting picked out by criminals. Look like a non-threat to the right people, but like a non-victim to others.

If you've got guns showing (a longarm), then you just because highly suspicious to LEO and you became a great target to a gun-seeking criminal or group of criminals.

Everyone would rather have a longarm, which is why my long arm is able to be stowed in a pack out of site.

Ah, but the handgun! The handgun stays hidden until trouble arises, and then can be quickly brought into play without anyone being able to expect it. If they see your longarm, then they already know what to expect out of you and will be aptly prepared for the meeting.

The above, however, does assume mobility is the state of affairs rather than guarding a stationary area (like your home). Obviously in the home that's all out of the window and the 1919 is getting mounted up.

Edited to add: In the SHTF, are you really going to be 'sniping' people at longer ranges? Hard to be on the defensive but trying to hit targets at 150 yards. Obviously there are 'special' circumstances, but the most likely scenario is bad dudes coming at you when you didn't expect it, up close.

I beg to differ on this one if shitf and you have a bug out vehicles someone going to try to steal it away from you. We humans are just like animals we prey on those who look weak. People think twice if you and your family packed to the teeth with guns showing. They are thinking in a gun fight like that someone going to get hurt most likely them, since you will have a bigger gun.

 

[David E]

The point of a handgun when the SHTF is NOT that it's lightweight. It's the it's concealable!!! Like I said earlier, if 'it' really does happen, one of the biggest problems will be not getting picked up by authorities, and not getting picked out by criminals. Look like a non-threat to the right people, but like a non-victim to others.

Ah, but the handgun! The handgun stays hidden until trouble arises, and then can be quickly brought into play without anyone being able to expect it.
.

I like your points about the handgun. I don't quite follow how you would look like a "non-victim" to others, since none of them would see your gun.

BTW, what is your personal handgun choice and load?

It seems to me that the people that dismiss the handgun as a viable tool don't know how to shoot one.

This, of course, brings up the matter of practice and skill. How much are we doing NOW? How high is our skill with handguns, shotguns and rifles NOW?

Is that rifle really sighted in? With those bullets? At 100 yds, right? Where does it hit at 250? Or 40 yds? How fast could I unsling my AR/M1A/AK/30-30/Scoped .243 and hit a man-size target at 100 yds? Or 50? Or 25? How fast could I hit 2 or 3 of them?

Handguns: Could I hit a man-size target at 50 yds? With the first shot? How fast can I draw it from concealment and hit 4 man-size targets with one shot each at 7 yds? Can I do it while wearing my SHTF pack?

Shotguns: How adept am I at swapping out a buckshot load for a slug in preparation of a 100 yd shot? Could I then hit the 100 yd target? Do I even have slugs? How will I carry them again?

Hmmmmmmmmmmm...............

.

 

[langston302]

This, of course, brings up the matter of practice and skill. How much are we doing NOW? How high is our skill with handguns, shotguns and rifles NOW?High, I practice and qualify Regularly

Is that rifle really sighted in? With those bullets? At 100 yds, right? Where does it hit at 250? Or 40 yds? How fast could I unsling my AR/M1A/AK/30-30/Scoped .243 and hit a man-size target at 100 yds? Or 50? Or 25? How fast could I hit 2 or 3 of them?Yes it is sighted in up 125yds, i dont go father than that with it, the 30 carbine aint that much good past that. I can bring my weapon into ready status from slung faster than most people can draw from their holster and engage my targets.

Handguns: Could I hit a man-size target at 50 yds?i can run my pistol (glock17) at 127yds and still hit pepper poppers..50 yds is much easier, but then again i have a long gun for anything past 30yds With the first shot? sometimes, it depends on if i get a real good sight picture established before i fire, sometimes i rush real bad and goof it all up How fast can I draw it from concealment and hit 4 man-size targets with one shot each at 7 yds? oh hell yes i can Can I do it while wearing my SHTF pack?now thats an answer i dont have, i have never tried to do that...but in a situation like that SHTF i am going with my drop leg holster.

Shotguns: How adept am I at swapping out a buckshot load for a slug in preparation of a 100 yd shot? Could I then hit the 100 yd target? Do I even have slugs? I train constantly on selecting a slug from my side saddle, and I am very confident that i can engage and stop my threat at 100 yds to 150 yds, i have 5 slugs on one side saddle and 5 buckshot on the other. How will I carry them again? depends on my enviorment.

EDIT...just so you know I am a LEO and not a braggert. my fellow officers and I train like there is no tomorrow, because we can and our department buys our ammo...

 

[quietmike]

With all due respect, this is stupid advice in the book, and stupid advice in general. A proper state of mind would address the incredibly naive "Hey! I got a rifle, so I'm invincible!" mentality. At least, for most mature folks.

Of course, it depends on the variables, but when you need it, you need it bad. How long could you last? Presuming you're a cool head and accurate shot, you'd have 20-30 less to worry about while you reload.

This is assuming that the survivior has superior training in small unit tactics, marksmanship, and other fighting skills over all 30 people they are engaged with. Not very likely for most folks.

I compare it to a guerrilla type conflict(which it is).
Throughout history, whenever a guerrilla force has engaged regular forces in a stand up battle, the guerrillas have been slaughtered.
But when the guerrillas stick to guerrilla tactics no regular army has won.

Short version- a survivor probably won't have the logistics and support systems of the "zombies" so it would be foolish to fight " playing their game".

 

[NoFair]

The one in the back; extremely reliable, accurate, great scope, back up sights, 7.62 Nato is very plentiful here, not too heavy without the suppressor and bi-pod.

I usually carry it in an Eberelestock pack so the weight doesn't matter too much either

Sverre

 

[Fieldtestornothing]

I think to many people get wrapped around the handle about their rifle choices. They compare the capabilities of a group of soldiers to that of one person with an assualt rifle. Especially during the 'engage multiple target' fantasies they have. If you are alone don't count on that AR to save your ass. You are not a fire team or squad and don't have the capabilities of one. Three good ol woods boys with single barrel shotguns at any resonable range with any reasonable skill would smoke you. Period. Unless your lucky. If you think any different then you need to attend some simmunition training and mix it up with other guys because you live in a fantasy world.

My training in the Military emphasized when operating in a small unit:
Fieldcraft
Marksmanship
Tactics

Those things still apply when alone but the dynamics change.

When operating as an individual:
E&E
Avoid contact
break contact

You do not want to attract attention. You do not want to mix it up with 4 or 5 guys. If you have to; cheat, lie, decieve and manuever to put fast accurate rounds on target. Pray that your marksmanship is good because your fieldcraft and tactics sucks.

I have almost 40 months cumulative in combat, 2/3 with the 2/325 82nd which doesn't quantify me as a expert by any means but honestly I think half of you live in a fantasy world regarding your capabilities against multiple opponents.

Don't get me started if you have your wife and 3 kiddies along.

Sorry if I sound like a ass I'm just having a bad day.