SHTF rifle prerequisites

[texasred66]

David E
Good questions we all need to answer.
Fieldtestornothing
Good post.
My personal choice is a SMLE .303 and a .357 6 inch barrel revolver. Regardless of one's weapons systems there is no substitute for practice-practice in the heat, the cold, the wind and the rain. Practice at the longest distance your range has.

 

[sodak]

Don't get me started if you have your wife and 3 kiddies along.

Sorry if I sound like a ass I'm just having a bad day.

You don't sound like an ass at all, you sound like the voice of experience, and I appreciate your honest input. I'd rather hear it from you then get killed doing something stupid.

The family remark is what always gets me. On other forums, people like to argue endlessly about all things SHTF, including bug out vehicles. Some argued that a certain brand of motorcycle is ideal - quiet, good gas mileage, goes, off road, etc. That's great - if you're single.

What do I do about my kids? I often thought about that when they were in diapers and formula. What do people do about their parents in nursing homes? Abandon them? Not in this lifetime, not for me. I haven't even gotten to families that have kids with disabilities.....

 

[ROCK6]

When operating as an individual:
E&E
Avoid contact
break contact

You do not want to attract attention. You do not want to mix it up with 4 or 5 guys. If you have to; cheat, lie, decieve and manuever to put fast accurate rounds on target. Pray that your marksmanship is good because your fieldcraft and tactics sucks.

Don't get me started if you have your wife and 3 kiddies along.

Very sage advice and another reason why that the weapon is less of a necessity over proper skills and common sense for most situation...although, we do enjoy discussing guns as much as knives

I would only add to Fieldtestornothing post by mentioning the "other" gear you'll be carrying along with your physical conditioning. I've done a few road marches with full IBA and ruck and after just a few miles, you're not going to be in the mood for a starting a fire fight. Work on accuracy, situational awareness and E&E fieldcraft skills...it's not the firearm, it's the mind (not excluding common sense), skill and physical conditioning of the shooter behind it.

ROCK6

 

[David E]

This, of course, brings up the matter of practice and skill. How much are we doing NOW? How high is our skill with handguns, shotguns and rifles NOW?High, I practice and qualify Regularly

That's great !

Could you please share what your practice and qualification consists of?

BTW, ever shoot the matches at OKC Gunclub or H&H ?

.

 

[David E]

I think to many people get wrapped around the handle about their rifle choices. They compare the capabilities of a group of soldiers to that of one person with an assualt rifle. Especially during the 'engage multiple target' fantasies they have. If you are alone don't count on that AR to save your ass. You are not a fire team or squad and don't have the capabilities of one. Three good ol woods boys with single barrel shotguns at any resonable range with any reasonable skill would smoke you.

I disagree. But then, it appears you missed my point.

For a SHTF scenario in town, I don't envision trained bands of ex-military folks looting and roving about, using team tactics to take out anyone that's in their way.

I DO envision a roving band of opportunistic looters that move and act as a mob with no real order or discipline. If they start something, then a high capacity AR, or similar, would be a very welcome arm indeed.

As I stated previously, presuming a cool head, a competent rifleman could inflict a serious amount of damage on a 30 person mob in short order with an AR.

A gun with less capacity and/or a slower rate of fire would inflict less damage in the same time frame, but it still should be enough to dissuade the looters from attacking further.

As for 3 "good ol' boys with shotguns," presuming I'm aware of what's happening around me, a competent rifleman with an AR could take them out beyond their shotgun range in less time that it took to read this last sentence.

.

 

[Fieldtestornothing]

I disagree. But then, it appears you missed my point.

For a SHTF scenario in town, I don't envision trained bands of ex-military folks looting and roving about, using team tactics to take out anyone that's in their way.

I DO envision a roving band of opportunistic looters that move and act as a mob with no real order or discipline. If they start something, then a high capacity AR, or similar, would be a very welcome arm indeed.

As I stated previously, presuming a cool head, a competent rifleman could inflict a serious amount of damage on a 30 person mob in short order with an AR.

A gun with less capacity and/or a slower rate of fire would inflict less damage in the same time frame, but it still should be enough to dissuade the looters from attacking further.

As for 3 "good ol' boys with shotguns," presuming I'm aware of what's happening around me, a competent rifleman with an AR could take them out beyond their shotgun range in less time that it took to read this last sentence.

.

I suggest you do some simunition training. Take 3 of your buddies out with sim or paintball and have them go hide in the woods. Then you walk along until you spot them or they ambush you. Let me know how it goes for you. If you can put rounds on all of them before they shoot you then you should consider asking Keith Sanderson for his slot in the olimpics. I get the feeling you've shot a lot of paper in your life. How many moving multiple targets have you engaged while you yourself were moving? Add a tad bit of stress, suprise, and deception I'm not aware of your capabilities and it may seem arogant to say such a thing. It is not my intent.

 

[Fieldtestornothing]

Very sage advice and another reason why that the weapon is less of a necessity over proper skills and common sense for most situation...although, we do enjoy discussing guns as much as knives

I would only add to Fieldtestornothing post by mentioning the "other" gear you'll be carrying along with your physical conditioning. I've done a few road marches with full IBA and ruck and after just a few miles, you're not going to be in the mood for a starting a fire fight. Work on accuracy, situational awareness and E&E fieldcraft skills...it's not the firearm, it's the mind (not excluding common sense), skill and physical conditioning of the shooter behind it.

ROCK6

Sorry didn't see your post. I'm totally with ya!:thumbup:

 

[okbohn]

I have a browning .22 lever action. It is very compact and holds 15 rounds. Love it. I'd take it.

 

[Simon520]

I read a brief report about the experiences of the Iraqi people during the collapse of their world. What was important to them in terms of equipment and what was useless. I'd be interested to find out what their thoughts are, since we would be in a similar situation i.e. relatively modern Western civilization that collapses.

 

[David E]

I suggest you do some simunition training. .

With all due respect, I suggest you re-read my post.

I said:

I DO envision a roving band of opportunistic looters that move and act as a mob with no real order or discipline. If they start something, then a high capacity AR, or similar, would be a very welcome arm indeed.

Now you go changing it to some guys lying in wait while I skip on up the road with nary a care in the world whistling "Give Peace a Chance."

YOU envision badguys with military training lying in wait ready to spring a crisply executed ambush. Ok, that's you. You must live in one tough neighborhood.

Me, I envision a rag-tag group of looters looking for 'freebies' making no secret about their presence.

In THAT case, to keep them from storming my house or coming down my street, I will stick to a battle rifle with high capacity.

.

 

[Fieldtestornothing]

I'm getting a better conception of what we were trying to say. I live on 20 acres with a acre fence and 6 dogs, 4 pits (hope no one gives them food otherwise they would probably attack me )

Our family plan is to move to a more secluded secondary property. So I envision more of a woods/traveling senario in my SHTF.

I can see that your thinking more rurally.

I was no way dismissing the use of a high capacity semi auto. In fact my two choices in my first post were a M-1 grand or one of my AR's. I agree completely with the use of a battle type rifles.

BUT I think a many a poster assumes wrongly (in my opinion) that the use of an assualt rifle will magically save them from multiple opponents. My focus is on tactics and fieldcraft to avoid conflict and should it appear to dominate the situation immediately.

I would just love to see those individuals come to some kind of reality regarding the one on three senario. Now obviously incorporating your weapons range capabilities to put you into a favorable situation (tactics) is important. Also we could 'what if' multiple situations (I'm sure that we would agree with each others opinions for the most part) to death.

My focus is on training. NOT JUST MARKSMANSHIP training.

 

[Unsub]

A Garand would be an excellent choice for a rural setting particularly Canada which has a 5 round mag limit for all the semi autos I know of but 1 ,the garand can have 8. 30-06 is an excellent and common round well suited to long ranges and light vehicles.
The only reason i prefer the .303 is the 2 extra rounds and they are much much much cheaper. Maybe Norinco will do a Garand like they do a M-14 for 400$

There is a lot of equipment I would rather have than a handgun but I live in a rural area.
In the city I could see them being more useful.

I prefer traps and snares to small .22's for harvesting small game because they are cheaper and much better use of time and effort. However I would still love to have one.
Particularly those .410/.22 survival rifles.

I have a nice bow now and need some more practice but it would be a god survival tool and would also be a not bad way to defend yourself without alerting the whole area with gunshots. Bowhunting is also a great way to learn the most important sniper skills other than marksmanship like stalking and camo.

 

[gadgetgeek]

not sure if it has been mentioned but I would be considering all of the ammo types available for a rifle, and proving that they feed reliably. sabot ammo for smaller stuff all the way through FMJ (in the unlikely event of needing to make a vehicle stop) and on to heavy jacketed or solid (nosler partition or barnes X) for large animals. .308 comes to mind for me, any others?
on the other hand, a thompson center encore with a few different barrels?
I cannot envision a situation for myself that a firearm with more that single shot capacity could solve by that factor alone. in fact besides food gathering, I cannot see any situation where the use of a firearm would make the situation "better" But then i'm a wacky canadian, what do I know.

 

[David E]

I'm sure that we would agree with each others opinions for the most part.

I'm sure we would !

When I lived on a farm, it was the only structure on that square mile of flat land. I had different ideas to home defense or roving looters there than I do here.

Hopefully, this whole conversation is moot, but it's always a good idea to be prepared and to think things thru beforehand.

Some people are predicting "unrest" if Obama loses.........OR wins !

I hope not.......

.

 

[Runs With Scissors]

I do beleive it's true that many of us have a tendency to focus on the romanticized images of our imaginations and not really consider the reality of a given situation.

For example, do you realize how TERRIBLY the feces would have to hit the oscillating device for me to even leave my home? Even it if burned down, I'd still probably try to stay on my own property. Most likely SHTF scenario in my mind would be a massive earthquake or a wildfire. any dangerous degree of civil unrest I just don't believe to be likely here in Alaska. Maybe in Anchorage, but still unlikely. Boilogical attack...now that's too scary to comptemplate, but yeah, I would be heading for the family cabin in the woods then. I'm one of these family guys with a wife and two kiddies, one of them an infant daughter. I damn sure aint runnin' 'round looking for trouble, or planning to take on any bad guy patrols, etc. I intend to run from trouble as much as my fat little body can stand to. If I can't outrun it though, I do feel fairly competent with my main rifle. I practice and hunt with it regularly. I would really like to enroll in a tactical rifle course with it though, One that isn't centered around M-4's.

I've kinda seen the SHTF in my community during the Millers Reach wildfire. Overall, it hugely enhanced my faith and love for the people of my community, but taught me to HATE the media. just about EVERYONE in the community wanted to help out. The local fire services finally relented and put a message across the local radio station (the only good media around, and a wonderful asset) saying "okay, our guys need sandwiches and drinks" about a half hour later there was a message on the same station: "PLEASE!! NO MORE SANDWICHES OR DRINKS!! THERE'S NO PLACE LEFT TO STORE THEM ALL!!" Anybody who COULD do anything DID do something.

But what did the media do in the face of all this goodness? they find the only retard they can with three teeth left in his skull riding around on a Pee Wee Herman lookin' bicyle carrying a single shot shotgun "so he could kill him any looters that he saw" They interview only the most hysterical, useless human feces that they can find. They fueled the flames of hysteria with hyped up reports of where the fire was spreading to, and what areas were in danger. As I recall, the State Troopers finally told them to knock it off.

I was out in the fire zone helping friends of the family. There were some pretty tense times during the events. Looters and such were a real possibility, but not a likely problem. I guess my "SHTF" gun was the 1911 I had stuffed in my waistband. No one ever saw it.

The events of Hurricane Katrina....Even though the scale of disaster is spectacularly broader as to make my own experience incomparable...I hope the same type of goodness transpired there, rather than the horrible stuff the media soon focused on. I have alot of faith in the goodness of people, and would like to keep it, ya' know?

 

[David E]

I damn sure aint runnin' 'round looking for trouble, or planning to take on any bad guy patrols, etc. I intend to run from trouble

That's not a bad plan at all.

If I were hunkered down in the woods or wherever when a band of looters came passing by, unless I had a very, very good reason, I'd let them pass with them being none the wiser that I was there.

Evasion would be the order of the day............when possible, anyway.

It was the "not possible" element I was addressing earlier.

.

 

[Liam Ryan]

A Garand would be an excellent choice for a rural setting particularly Canada which has a 5 round mag limit for all the semi autos I know of but 1 ,the garand can have 8. 30-06 is an excellent and common round well suited to long ranges and light vehicles.
The only reason i prefer the .303 is the 2 extra rounds and they are much much much cheaper. Maybe Norinco will do a Garand like they do a M-14 for 400$

I don't know about you but if the SHTF I will be unpinning my 20 round mags pretty quick.

I heard talk about norinco making garands a while back, it would be pretty nice!:thumbup:

 

[sodak]

I've kinda seen the SHTF in my community during the Millers Reach wildfire. Overall, it hugely enhanced my faith and love for the people of my community, but taught me to HATE the media.

I have alot of faith in the goodness of people, and would like to keep it, ya' know?

Well said. I have a lot of faith in some of the communities that I lived in over the years. When I was a kid, growing up on the eastern plains of South Dakota, I learned what blizzards and cold were. This was back in the early 70's. The local radio would put out calls to the community asking for volunteers to take doctors and nurses from their homes to the hospitals. You knew when the blizzard was serious, they would ask for no more 4WD's, only snowmobiles. People would dress the doctors and nurses up in snowmobile suits, and ferry them wherever they needed to go.

 

[hannibal lecter spyderco]

I do beleive it's true that many of us have a tendency to focus on the romanticized images of our imaginations and not really consider the reality of a given situation.

For example, do you realize how TERRIBLY the feces would have to hit the oscillating device for me to even leave my home? Even it if burned down, I'd still probably try to stay on my own property. Most likely SHTF scenario in my mind would be a massive earthquake or a wildfire. any dangerous degree of civil unrest I just don't believe to be likely here in Alaska. Maybe in Anchorage, but still unlikely. Boilogical attack...now that's too scary to comptemplate, but yeah, I would be heading for the family cabin in the woods then. I'm one of these family guys with a wife and two kiddies, one of them an infant daughter. I damn sure aint runnin' 'round looking for trouble, or planning to take on any bad guy patrols, etc. I intend to run from trouble as much as my fat little body can stand to. If I can't outrun it though, I do feel fairly competent with my main rifle. I practice and hunt with it regularly. I would really like to enroll in a tactical rifle course with it though, One that isn't centered around M-4's.

I've kinda seen the SHTF in my community during the Millers Reach wildfire. Overall, it hugely enhanced my faith and love for the people of my community, but taught me to HATE the media. just about EVERYONE in the community wanted to help out. The local fire services finally relented and put a message across the local radio station (the only good media around, and a wonderful asset) saying "okay, our guys need sandwiches and drinks" about a half hour later there was a message on the same station: "PLEASE!! NO MORE SANDWICHES OR DRINKS!! THERE'S NO PLACE LEFT TO STORE THEM ALL!!" Anybody who COULD do anything DID do something.

But what did the media do in the face of all this goodness? they find the only retard they can with three teeth left in his skull riding around on a Pee Wee Herman lookin' bicyle carrying a single shot shotgun "so he could kill him any looters that he saw" They interview only the most hysterical, useless human feces that they can find. They fueled the flames of hysteria with hyped up reports of where the fire was spreading to, and what areas were in danger. As I recall, the State Troopers finally told them to knock it off.

I was out in the fire zone helping friends of the family. There were some pretty tense times during the events. Looters and such were a real possibility, but not a likely problem. I guess my "SHTF" gun was the 1911 I had stuffed in my waistband. No one ever saw it.

The events of Hurricane Katrina....Even though the scale of disaster is spectacularly broader as to make my own experience incomparable...I hope the same type of goodness transpired there, rather than the horrible stuff the media soon focused on. I have alot of faith in the goodness of people, and would like to keep it, ya' know?

I assume that you live in the nice part of the U.S. where people still have morals and ethics, that even criminals have some sort of standards. I was there in that whole Rodney King riot, if you look at the footage etc.. many of those people who torched buildings and stole things weren't even black. It was more of crime of opportunity than anything else for those individual than anything else.. There are many people who feel they can do whatever they want if the law enforcement system has broken down. I was one of the medical professionals who went to New Orleans days after the event, it was a mad house over there as well there was no such thing as law and order and we all know what happened, heck we are a country that riots because our home team wins a championship . If you stay in your house in the middle of a war zone the masses burn the house around you. People who riot have a certain gang like mentality and it spirals out of control. If a dirty bomb hit your area, you need to leave because the radiation will be carried by the winds. If its a biological agent. which is scary. everyone and their mom going to try to leave unless you have a atv or live in rural country, you are toast.

 

[Runs With Scissors]

...........