So I broke my Rat Daddy

[Blain]

Right. But if you bought the knife from the factory, you wouldn't actually be out anything if you received a shop credit for the full amount you paid for it. The real problem is what happens to the value of Busse knives on the secondary market. And that, obviously, is something Busse Combat has no control over or responsibility for.

To my way of thinking, if you want to use a Busse knife, you should buy it from the factory. And in the rare circumstance that it becomes damaged beyond repair and a replacement isn't available, you should be satisfied to be made whole.

Wouldn't be out anything? Let's pretend that the secondary market doesn't exist. Does $250 2005 dollars have the same buying power as $250 in 2015 dollars? He could have bought another knife / knives that he could become acquainted with, that he knew could be replaced if they broke.

Secondly, Busse has complete control over the secondary market, and that is exactly what they are doing. Why do you think they keep constantly producing different blades and constantly changing their production line? Does the Swamp rat line up from 2005 match up with the line up from 2015? Why couldn't they have kept producing battle rats and camp tramps post 2005? Was there something wrong with the quality or function of those knives? Why do they have to switch models up, constantly with only slight little variations between them? It's one thing to have a couple limited edition knives that pop up along WITH a constant steady product line. Busse has no constant steady product line and is always changing, creating limited quantities, and selling out. This is a way to create demand / artificial scarcity.

I'm not saying it's not a good business strategy, but don't for a second think that Busse doesn't know what they are doing. They are much smarter than you give them credit for.

If I were you, and Busse refused to make it right, and only offers you a credit, I would ask for the credit AND the broken blade back. I would then send the broken blade to a custom maker and have them make as close a proximity as possible (using the broken blade as a reference), differentially tempered, in the steel of your choice and use the credit as payment towards the project.

 

[bld522]

Wouldn't be out anything? Let's pretend that the secondary market doesn't exist. Does $250 2005 dollars have the same buying power as $250 in 2015 dollars?

Nope. Busse Combat isn't responsible for inflation or deflation either. Like Jerry said, if you buy a Busse knife from the factory and he can't replace it with the same model or one close to in current production, you'll get a credit for what you paid for it. That sounds fair to me.

Busse has no constant steady product line and is always changing, creating limited quantities, and selling out. This is a way to create demand / artificial scarcity.

He even steals from his own designs! Can you imagine being able to get away with that over and over and over again? You do recognize that that's the sign of a master, don't you? Clearly the man's genius exceeds his skill with a kiln.

Jerry Busse has built a business the likes of which are both unique and extraordinary. I know of no other operation quite like it. Before he leaves this planet, I hope to hell he writes his memoirs. They'll be studied in business schools for decades to come.

 

[ichor]

Secondly, Busse has complete control over the secondary market, and that is exactly what they are doing. .

Ridiculous statement. No one has control over the secondary market other than the buyers willing to pay the freight..

 

[bld522]

Yep. I'd have to see some proof of that before I'd be willing to give it any credence. Still, I can't imagine the secondary market wouldn't get at least an honorable mention in Jerry's memoirs for helping maintain a thriving demand for his products. It's definitely a big part of the magic and the machinery.

 

[Blueoak]

Wouldn't be out anything? Let's pretend that the secondary market doesn't exist. Does $250 2005 dollars have the same buying power as $250 in 2015 dollars? He could have bought another knife / knives that he could become acquainted with, that he knew could be replaced if they broke.

Secondly, Busse has complete control over the secondary market, and that is exactly what they are doing. Why do you think they keep constantly producing different blades and constantly changing their production line? Does the Swamp rat line up from 2005 match up with the line up from 2015? Why couldn't they have kept producing battle rats and camp tramps post 2005? Was there something wrong with the quality or function of those knives? Why do they have to switch models up, constantly with only slight little variations between them? It's one thing to have a couple limited edition knives that pop up along WITH a constant steady product line. Busse has no constant steady product line and is always changing, creating limited quantities, and selling out. This is a way to create demand / artificial scarcity.

I'm not saying it's not a good business strategy, but don't for a second think that Busse doesn't know what they are doing. They are much smarter than you give them credit for.

If I were you, and Busse refused to make it right, and only offers you a credit, I would ask for the credit AND the broken blade back. I would then send the broken blade to a custom maker and have them make as close a proximity as possible (using the broken blade as a reference), differentially tempered, in the steel of your choice and use the credit as payment towards the project.

I would argue that you are wrong.

First of all, no one controls the secondary market. Busse certainly helps maintain the secondary market with the best warranty in the business, being great people and having great designs. Still no one can predict what will be hot in the years to come. Just because something is limited does not automatically make it valuable. If you are a business and you build a knife and it does not sell well and you have a 1000 blanks cut and you are sitting on Labor, materials and marketing, it can get ugly fast. There is risk in manufacturing and you really have to respect an American company that is successful. I tip my hat to Busse.

One example I would use to show that Busse does not limit knives is the Steel Heart 1 and The Anniversary Steel Heart. They are almost identical with the newer version showing improvements in manufacturing, steel and the handle. This is not limiting the market; it is giving the customer what they want. Busse is bringing an improved product to the market. This is solid business.

I am sure from my dealings with Busse Combat in the past they will make it right.

 

[worldwood]

There is always some risk involved if you intend to (ab)use an out of production blade that tends to sell for 2-3x (or more ) the original retail price due to rarity and a lower volume in circulation. As much as it sucks when one breaks, the manufacturer can't be held liable for the secondary market price of the knife. It's a risk you take when beating on unreplaceable out of production knives that should be taken into consideration. That being said, one of my favorite blades is a really rare model of vintage SHBM that, if it did ever break, would be devastating, because not only did I pay multiple times more than the original retail value, that even if I did get what I paid for it, there would be no way to replace it. It's a risk you take to enjoy the blades that made Jerry's reputation what it is. And to me, that risk is worth the reward. It's up to you to decide if you're willing to eat the loss on the off chance you do break a vintage blade.

While i feel very sorry for your lose ADrock, i strongly agree with this.... As much as it hurts me to say it.

My favorite knife is my chopweiler. DHT. No longer made. Paid more for it then the original price... Granted not as much $$ as a RD... But if it ever broke, id literally shed tears.

That being said... I use it almost daily, and never hesitate to beat on it like i WANT to... I know if it breaks nothing could replace it... Especially mine with a regrind from D.Keffeler... But i still never hesitate to beat on it.

I could put it in a display case.... But that would TORTURE me. Id never sell it... Only option there is, is to use it the way i did when i fell in love with it, and enjoy it for as many days/years as i can!!

Everything dies in the end brother!! RIP to your RD. Smoke headed up.

 

[adrock1978]

[video=youtube;a5dpBpaFiMo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5dpBpaFiMo[/video]

Too funny. I can't say that didn't come to mind!

Right. But if you bought the knife from the factory, you wouldn't actually be out anything if you received a shop credit for the full amount you paid for it. The real problem is what happens to the value of Busse knives on the secondary market. And that, obviously, is something Busse Combat has no control over or responsibility for.

To my way of thinking, if you want to use a Busse knife, you should buy it from the factory. And in the rare circumstance that it becomes damaged beyond repair and a replacement isn't available, you should be satisfied to be made whole.

The real problem is NOT the value. I'm not bent out of shape because they want to give me less than what an RD goes for now. I don't care about the money. I care about the knife. The real problem is their solution of shop credit does not, and can not put a knife of equal size into my hands. It leaves me virtually zero option to obtain a knife of similar size. While Busse's no questions asked, transferable warranty is very admirable, it coincides very poorly with their business model. In my opinion, they need to add another avenue of option for someone with an out of production knife in this size category. Does the shop credit even extend to ANY Bussekin? I wouldn't be surprised if I was told the credit is exclusive to the family (swamp rat) of knife I broke. I don't know. At least if SR said, here's $250 credit towards any Bussekin, I could have applied it to the only knife currently similar in size; an ASHBM.... which even that is now out of production. Maybe in unique scenarios such as this, they could at least cut me a check of actual money, that I could apply to the a secondary market knife. But no.

It shouldn't be touted as a lifetime warranty. It should be considered a limited warranty covering the knife only within the production time of that knife. Otherwise, its more like a consolation prize. How would a shop credit make me whole, if I had bought the knife from the factory? Great, so they gave me a credit for the amount I originally spent, to use towards what? The no longer make the product they're warrantying.

So if Busse got out of the knife business and started making blow dryers, and they said "In order to honor the warranty of every knife out there, we're going to give everyone a shop credit for the original value of your knife, to be spent on a new blow dryer." How is that making someone whole? It's not even cash in hand. It leaves the customer with no option to replace the object they've become vested in.

Basically I think Busse needs to slightly revamp their warranty, to add a little more option into the hands of people who have supported them long enough to own an out of production knife. Otherwise, I will probably still purchase Busse here and there, but the manner in which I use and regard my knife will seriously suffer, knowing I'm left holding the bag if I break it. I dont think thats the image Busse is going for - We make bad ass knives you should use carefully

While i feel very sorry for your lose ADrock, i strongly agree with this.... As much as it hurts me to say it.

My favorite knife is my chopweiler. DHT. No longer made. Paid more for it then the original price... Granted not as much $$ as a RD... But if it ever broke, id literally shed tears.

That being said... I use it almost daily, and never hesitate to beat on it like i WANT to... I know if it breaks nothing could replace it... Especially mine with a regrind from D.Keffeler... But i still never hesitate to beat on it.

I could put it in a display case.... But that would TORTURE me. Id never sell it... Only option there is, is to use it the way i did when i fell in love with it, and enjoy it for as many days/years as i can!!

Everything dies in the end brother!! RIP to your RD. Smoke headed up.

Thank you. Much appreciated. I think perspective would change slightly though if you found yourself holding a busted chopweiler.

 

[worldwood]

I started a similar thread... Maybe a year ago now in the rat chat forum... But it was hypothetical. I was asking what if I broke my chopweiler... And I got the same answer your getting now... I was told I'd get shop credit for the original cost... I made the decision then that I'd rather enjoy it with the apparent risk than not at all.

Yes in your shoes... I'd be pissed. But in my shoes, I asked in advance, and decided the risk was worth the reward.

I do hope you get taken care of in a way that makes you happy bro... Or at least reduces the hurt a bit.

 

[AntDog]

Too funny. I can't say that didn't come to mind!



The real problem is NOT the value. I'm not bent out of shape because they want to give me less than what an RD goes for now. I don't care about the money. I care about the knife. The real problem is their solution of shop credit does not, and can not put a knife of equal size into my hands. It leaves me virtually zero option to obtain a knife of similar size. While Busse's no questions asked, transferable warranty is very admirable, it coincides very poorly with their business model. In my opinion, they need to add another avenue of option for someone with an out of production knife in this size category. Does the shop credit even extend to ANY Bussekin? I wouldn't be surprised if I was told the credit is exclusive to the family (swamp rat) of knife I broke. I don't know. At least if SR said, here's $250 credit towards any Bussekin, I could have applied it to the only knife currently similar in size; an ASHBM.... which even that is now out of production. Maybe in unique scenarios such as this, they could at least cut me a check of actual money, that I could apply to the a secondary market knife. But no.

It shouldn't be touted as a lifetime warranty. It should be considered a limited warranty covering the knife only within the production time of that knife. Otherwise, its more like a consolation prize. How would a shop credit make me whole, if I had bought the knife from the factory? Great, so they gave me a credit for the amount I originally spent, to use towards what? The no longer make the product they're warrantying.

So if Busse got out of the knife business and started making blow dryers, and they said "In order to honor the warranty of every knife out there, we're going to give everyone a shop credit for the original value of your knife, to be spent on a new blow dryer." How is that making someone whole? It's not even cash in hand. It leaves the customer with no option to replace the object they've become vested in.

Basically I think Busse needs to slightly revamp their warranty, to add a little more option into the hands of people who have supported them long enough to own an out of production knife. Otherwise, I will probably still purchase Busse here and there, but the manner in which I use and regard my knife will seriously suffer, knowing I'm left holding the bag if I break it. I dont think thats the image Busse is going for - We make bad ass knives you should use carefully



Thank you. Much appreciated. I think perspective would change slightly though if you found yourself holding a busted chopweiler.

I bet they have something nice laying around they might send you...if you whine persistently enough. Lol

 

[knife chop]

In reality, you're funked! Unless swamp has blanks!!! Ouch!! Sorry!

But hey, considering your situation, I can guarrandamntee that they will let you pick one knife you want on their upcoming knob creek.

 

[Hunt Well]

Thank you for showing us the mortality of the steel. 13+ years of good use is worth the inflation/appreciation loss to me. I beat on my rats weekly and your post has lessened my expectations of a forever edge. That said, I hope the company makes you a fair deal.

 

[Rob_Mob]

Hmmm --- some good points have been brought up here. First and foremost -- sorry you experienced this unfortunate setback. I'm going to number some important points here and hopefully we all maintain a civil exchange here without getting nasty:

1. Even incredible knives are susceptible to malfunction/damage. We shouldn't forget that we're heavily beating on knives here and the amount of force these knives directly experience is bound to at some point have a noticeable effect on the knife. While we all enjoy the mythical/indestructible image of Busse/Bussekin knives -- maybe a more sober/realistic idea would be helpful. With that said --- there's plentiful evidence that you can continue to beat on their knives very hard without too much concern.

2. Their warranty is actually quite great. Let's remember how much time and attention they allocate to their production/heat treat/etc. --- the fact that they do offer a quality solution of some sort for the entire life span of the knife is applaudable.

3. You have some very valid points about the way the warranty is worded -- that it can be a little misleading. I do t anticipate the misleading is intentional -- rather your situation falls in the gray area.

4. The company can and probably should make some adjustments to properly accommodate these situations. More importantly you raised a great point about being a long time customer/consumer --- who in many way rightfully deserves EVEN BETTER treatment when something like this happens. This would allow us to continue to ACTUALLY feel like this community is a family and takes care of their own with vigilant customer loyalty. This is critical --- this is how you separate companies who use the close knife community to enhance the experience vs companies who use this marketing tactic to increase company profit margins with repeat customers who believe they're part of something that doesn't have genuine substance behind it.

5. You DEFINITELY should give them a chance to make things right. I also strongly encourage you to get Jerry on the phone if you feel like you're not being taken care of. Hear what he has to say and offer your experience and thoughts. You never know he might change something just because you inspired him to.

6. Their limited run business model is SO MUCH FUN --- lets accept that one of the side effects of such a fun/awesome business model --- is occasional hiccups --- which I'm sure can easily be addressed


Good luck to you brother! Keep us informed!

 

[d762nato]

I just don't get it, why can't you just sent in your broken knife/blade and it could be traced and a new blank made from it. It seems pretty simple and I'm sure it's been done before by other makers. Hmm! I'm sorry to hear about your Rat Daddy that's a nice knife design. Good luck brother on your fix or replacement and this post will most likely bring some of the old rats onto the market for sale most likely with others being afraid they may brake an Irreplaceable vintage swamprat knife.

 

[adrock1978]

I bet they have something nice laying around they might send you...if you whine persistently enough. Lol

You're onto me!!

 

[worldwood]

I just don't get it, why can't you just sent in your broken knife/blade and it could be traced and a new blank made from it.

Yep.... Shouldnt even have to send it in. They know the specs of the knife. Cutting the blank is, a lot of times, the easiest part of making a knife IMO.... Its just the shape, and with a half decent grinder it doesnt take long to get the general profile shaped. Hell i have done it with hand files and a drill in a few hours on a smaller knife... with good equipment it wouldnt take long at all to profile out a RD.

From the sounds of it.. they dont cut the blanks themselves ??? ... I am a bit curious to know just what they do (themselves) by hand there in THEIR shop. Some of the machining marks i have seen make me wonder. I love the blades though, regardless how they are made, but cutting a blank should, dare i say, NEVER be the only thing stopping a knife from being made.

Just my opinion of course. I know if i break an old Rat my opinion wont mean crap... but ill use mine till that day comes anyway.

 

[bld522]

I posted what Jerry said his warranty consisted of. He didn't mince words and he didn't mince meanings. Anything beyond what he said is something you'd have to negotiate with him.

If it gives you any comfort, I haven't heard a single complaint about the way the shop handled a warranty claim since I've been here. That doesn't mean it didn't happen. It's just that warranty claims are reported so infrequently that it may have slipped by me. Then again, I have no way of knowing how often claims are dealt with one-on-one versus posting them here on BF. Knowing what I do about the Busse operation and out of respect for the obvious pride Jerry takes in the way the factory stands behind its products, however, one-on-one is probably the approach I would have settled on. Then again, I usually don't go looking for trouble until trouble comes looking for me.

I hope it works out for you. My suspicion is it will.

 

[firecog]

I just don't get it, why can't you just sent in your broken knife/blade and it could be traced and a new blank made from it....

Since they have a 'Custom Shop', you would think that would be pretty easy.
That said, Busse & Co. seem to revive 'discontinued' models pretty frequently for shows and Ganzaas, so you would think it would be a relatively simple matter to do a small run every now and then. Owners who are really invested in a certain design would be happy to wait an extra 'two weeks' if needed, or it would at least be nice to have the option.

 

[AZTimT]

There's still the option of a Rucki for $358.95... same brand 69% paid for by your shop credit and mine chops really well. There's ways to be made whole with a little bit of creative thinking.

 

[FloridaBlade]

Speaking for myself, if I was in that situation and broke my older blade, the problem would be that the current line of products just don't appeal to me at all the way the older designs did. Hate to say it, but it's true. I find the older style Busse and Swamp Rats to be beautiful designs; almost like artwork combined with rugged American craftsmanship. Heck, even if they gave me a credit I probably wouldn't even be interested in one of those new blades because I'm not inspired to own one of them. I go to their website(s) now and find myself yawning.

Maybe they should consider stocking a more permanent line of a few "Classic Rats" which would harken back to their roots, resonate with their buyers and also help solve the warranty problem of the OP and others like him. Just a thought.

 

[tinfoil hat timmy]

There's still the option of a Rucki for $358.95... same brand 69% paid for by your shop credit and mine chops really well. There's ways to be made whole with a little bit of creative thinking.

I wish I had a broken RAT daddy to send into the shop.....



I hope everything works out for you O.P. I was just foolin. Good luck.