Some observations and unsolicited advice

gator68 said:
Everyone has to find their own style of working. I can think of a few famous knife makers who routinely sell knives that I personally would be embarrassed to put my name on. They get big $$. They've found their niche, and it is based on things other than fit and finish. There are many factors in selling a knife other than the hand-rubbed finish, and many types of users and collectors. My philosophy is to make things that I am proud of, to the best I can do at this point in time. Don't waste time worrying about what other people are or are not selling.
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You are correct. Sometimes it is based on things other than fit and finish.
Sales, whether those sales are for a knife you made or for a used or new car involve more than just how good the product is. You may have a great product but the products don't sell themselves contrary to that popular saying. Some focus on the products only forgetting that the first thing you have to sell a potential customer is yourself. Once you've sold yourself then you can talk about the products.

I've worked as a professional sales person selling dental equipment most of my adult life. During classes that were quite formal and very detailed you learn all the techniques and believe me more goes into a sale than you may realize and that can be from anything down to the shoes and tie you wear if you work white collar to how bad your breath is and more. I worked in the mouth first of course but found I really didn't like digging around in someones mouth all that much but I did like traveling and I did like meeting people and entertaining. In the time I sold professionally I might sell a sundry item for a few bucks or an $90,000 milling machine to do crowns but I understood one thing better than anything else. Its all about people. I was involved with many great salesman and some so so salesman of course as anyone would be after 22 years doing it. What makes a great salesman? I knew some that were terrible closers but did quite well anyway. They could not get the idea of a soft or hard close, had no interest in really developing a pitch for a new product when it came out and never went into an office with any semblance of a commitment objective and just did what they were comfortable with and capable of doing and I was always a bit puzzled by how they managed to do so well for being technically bad salesman at least at the techniques we were taught.

After getting to know some of them I realized they were technically terrible sales people sure, but they did a lot of other things right and even excelled in some areas not talked about much if at all in any classes. One thing I noticed was they always did what they said they were going to do and they did it when they said they were going to do it. If they told a doctor they'd call him back on Monday at noon with the details of a product in answer to a question, a quote, or anything else they did it at noon on Monday just as they said they would do. They kept detailed records of who worked at every office and they reviewed that when needed before going in and knew the names of everyone they met and remembered details about the last meeting which they could mention at times. This was great salesmanship and only something you can pick up from experience. If they scheduled a lunch at noon they were there at ten till or earlier setting up for it and greeting everyone, not ten minutes late. They worked a religious call schedule and they not only showed up at the doctors office every two weeks but they showed up at the same time of day on a Tuesday every two weeks like clock work and you know what? They sold a lot and had the most loyal customers you could ever imagine and yet they were the worst sales people from the stand point of making a sale as anyone. But their doctors, their customers, and their peers loved them, they trusted them and more importantly they knew they could count on them.

When they met someone new they simply greeted them with the same smile and enthusiasm they greeted those they dealt with for many years and they came across as someone that was very happy to be there because they indeed were happy to be there and happy to meet the people they greeted. When they spoke they spoke with conviction and knew the product they sold and the competive products and could compare them both in their minds and verbally to the customers and when asked a question no matter how technical or how simple it was they gave an honest answer regardless of whether that was, 'you know, I don't know the answer to that but I'll find out and let you know, I'll call you back with that on Monday at noon" or whether it was the full details answering the question right there. When they knew they told you they knew and they answered and more importantly they knew what they did not know and they didn't pretend to know but said in a humble way, they didn't know and that they would get that for them or like to know. Each customer got their undivided attention the entire time they were before them and these sales people did something else better than others too, they listened rather than do most of the talking.

Sales are not always about the product. You can sell crap from Pakistan or top the line USA made anything and believe me I know some guys that could sell sand to someone that lived in the Sahara and make them feel like they got a deal but what really makes the difference is the service and support behind the sale no matter what it is. If you just leave a customer hanging, one customer that is hanging or unhappy, it can bite you many times over and it does not matter how many good happy ones you have or had in the past that one negative can really hurt you. Thats what you are always aware of each time something comes up. Its not about who deserves the sale, how long you have been doing it or the product all that much guys. It doesn't matter who paid dues yet in your eyes or anyone elses and who didn't or really even about judgements as to if the guy is any good or not in your book or anyone elses. If you are a knife maker waiting for someone else, particularly someone that you compete with to tell you when you are there and deserving you're going to be waiting a long time. I applaud standing up for yourself and believing in your own ability but as the bible says plainly I urge you to remember always to be humble. "Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted" (Matthew 23:10-12)

STR
 
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steelshaper said:
For all I know this thread is about me, though I do not think so. Are my prices to high? Have I not paid my dues? Are you folks unhappy with the way I participate here?
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yes !!

smiletoothy.gif


that's a relief, I thought they were all talking about me :D:D

just kidding :confused: ;)

like Kevin advocates in his endeavors to get the steel right in the heat treat and to get you and I (as in, us all) to get it right... you can make a knife look rightly prutee but the most important things are to many times over looked
this is in what you can't see.

pretty sells, well made and workable keeps customers coming back.. both are primo ...:thumbup:

another point given, trusting your life on your knife gets pretty deep... if up against a bear I'd want a long son of
a #$%@^ but for diving maybe a small one so I don't cut my leg off cutting fishing line from my leg ... right tool for the right job guys
I'm not sure with all the different things being said here if this helps a lot, but it's thrown in there to think about anyway ..
.
dang,,,, just thinking, I hope no one thinks I'm a snob or upity , I'd have to crawl back into hiding under my rock..
 
Mike Carter Custom Knives said:
Jim, I talked with you at that gun show a couple of weeks ago. You seem like like a nice enough guy but I do find your attitude a little arrogant. You seem to put no value on experience or the advice from those who have the experience and I think at some point you will find that experience does count.

I made my first knife in 2003. I did my first show in 2007. In the 4 years between those dates I learned to make knives and it took me that long before I felt my work was worthy of laying out on the tables next to the other knifemakers. I sold my first knives very cheap to get get them into the hands of users and collectors. Since then my prices have gone up to a more reasonable price in line with the time and effort I out into them. I took the time to learn the craft and made sure my customers got their moneys worth. Now I have a backlog of orders becuase people know that.

I am not saying that you should wait 4 years but you seem to have an attitude that you already know it all in a few months and those of us who took longer are just slow. My mentor has been making knives full time for over 50 years and he will tell you that he is still learning.

Earlier you said:
"I will never sell a knife I wouldn't trust my life or my customers life with. I have too much respect for Art and the customer."
If by your own admission none fo your knives have been in service for more than 6 months, exactly how is it that you have so much confidence in their performance? Also you have not shown any respect for the art in this thread.

I just had to speak up and I hope you find yourself a big helping of humble pie somewhere along the way. You haven't done yourself any favors in this thread. That's my opinion for whatever it may be worth to you.
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Mike;thank you. I am sorry if I offended anyone especially you. You are one of the makers I hope to mirror somewhere in my work. Although I may not seem like it, I am listening to every word of wisdom you have imparted to me during our brief encounters. I do thank you and any other knifemaker new or old that has offered advice or suggestions.

You immediately came to mind yesterday, when a guy from E-Town stopped at my table and was asking about where he could get a "big, fancy Bowie". I handed him one of your cards and told him, "Mike Carter is one of best "Bowie" knifemakers I know of. I also gave another man one of David's card that was looking for a "fancy" folder as a gift. Mike, do your remember one of the first things I said to you at NGD? I thanked you for teaching me how to make a sheath. I wanted you to know this because when I used your tutorial on sheath making it made it more enjoyable. I made a mental note to make sure and thank you the next time I saw you. I use the sheath you taught me how to make to carry my EDC now.

I know that I appear very confident. I also know I tend to come off as very arrogant. I apologize for that. A flaw, somewhat like a burr in the blade I am working on.


Mike you also asked me how can I trust my life to a knife that I only learned to make six months ago. Maybe I should expound on that. I still have the old knife made from a planner blade I made when I was 15. Although it has a butt ugly rope handle put on and coated with epoxy, my first micarta of sorts. I have skinned over thirty deer, twelve hogs, 100's of squirrel, a snake or two, and other various animals. It has survived, the military, two wives and a dozen cars. It took me months to make it with help of my dad, and my dads friend. When I go to the woods,this knife is the one I still carry and trust my life with for the past 32 years.

I have ten years experience as a machinist, where the machines I built and designed were machines that peoples lives depended on. I still stand by every piece of equipment I built or worked on. I never sent out a piece of equipment that wasn't up to the highest of standards.

Mike, in retrospect, I look at you,and all the other great knife makers I have had the privilege of meeting or talked to. These are standards by which I judge my work. I look forward to the day where I make a knife as well as you. Knifemaking is my reason for getting up in the morning. It is my passion. Sometimes, that is the reason I sound "arrogant". I think, if I can set up at show and make a living at it, producing a knife that people want even "before i have paid my dues", then I have done o.k. IF I am not making knives that are well made, or that are sought after, then my lack of customers will send me packing, especially in these hard times and I will be just be another flash in pan.


I wish to apologize to all the knifemakers I have offended. It was not my intention to imply that I was superior to any knifemaker nor that I didn't have a lot to learn. I guess in my excitement of actually selling my "art" I got a bit carried away. I didn't mean any disrespect to Art of knifemaking,

Again please accept my apologies;
Jim Adams, Black Toe Knives
 
STR said:
I applaud standing up for yourself and believing in your own ability but as the bible says plainly I urge you to remember always to be humble. "Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted" (Matthew 23:10-12)
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Well said. I will try to follow that advice. I know I may come off as a blowhard and sometimes give pointers when others are better-qualified, and I apologize to anyone I may have offended.
 
Nathan the Machinist said:
Who let Dan out from under the rock?
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............ it's just a little one and not very heavy :D

Jim be it making knives, changing a tire or knowing when you give your loved one flowers.... I look at things like .
today I learned something that makes me more knowledgeable than I was last week.
I look at what I didn't know last year and compare to today..
this makes me know now I'll know more next year and still have plenty to discover..
... you, I'm sure know things that are worth scaring with any of us, this makes us all = in our own right in the realm of life ...
 
atakach said:
please dont bring the ORB into this
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All I can say Andrew is the Big Yellow ORB dudes can protect you from the monkey poo that someone is throwing at you . It will be dust and fertilizer as soon as it leaves the monkey's butt . :cool:
Little John , you are protected , the ORB dudes have the ninja monkey's GPS. address . They will be in hiding soon no matter how hard the whip is crack .
Sorry , off subject . Could not help myself .
What was this thread about ?? :jerkit:
 
Sorry Jim , no disrespected intended to you . Something written just made me laugh real hard . Laughter is good for the heart and soul .
Now , judge your work harder than those that judge your work . It will never end , that be a good thing .
 
My monkeys wear tin foil viking helmets made in Wisconsin by a guy that thinks he's distantly related to someone that once saw a viking.

I'm a Southerner and live in the country... if you make it past the poo throwing ninja monkeys, biting dogs, biting kids then you got to deal with the wife :p

I didn't realize knifemakers had souls, thought we put them into the steel :p
 
so you think jack.....but dont be fooled them alabama mo....i mean ninja moneys can be full of wicked ninja like stealthy manuvers.....just hope that will dont read this or were both doomed now....way to go twit!!!

glad to see this thread go off topic, i mean origionally it was a more than excellent topic, but hell aint we beating a dead horse now???
 
BlackToe Knives said:
Mike;thank you. I am sorry if I offended anyone especially you. You are one of the makers I hope to mirror somewhere in my work. Although I may not seem like it, I am listening to every word of wisdom you have imparted to me during our brief encounters.
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I'm glad you responded to Mike this way. He's a friend, and I respect him a lot. It takes a lot to give frank advice like he did. Its actually not uncommon among the others here either. The knife community is an amazing group. The quality of people I've met during my knife adventure is above and beyond what I find in society. I'm learning to make knives here, and I am grateful.
 
atakach said:
glad to see this thread go off topic, i mean origionally it was a more than excellent topic, but hell aint we beating a dead horse now???
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Yes now that we have established that it was me with the poo on my shoe stinkin up the place we can all go back to our regularly scheduled program;):D
 
Will Leavitt said:
My monkeys wear tin foil viking helmets made in Wisconsin by a guy that thinks he's distantly related to someone that once saw a viking.

I'm a Southerner and live in the country... if you make it past the poo throwing ninja monkeys, biting dogs, biting kids then you got to deal with the wife :p

I didn't realize knifemakers had souls, thought we put them into the steel :p
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No thanks Will . I'll take the monkey poo and biting dogs and kids . Wife's can be REAL mean . One is enough .
 
Will Leavitt said:
My monkeys wear stainless foil-lined Viking helmets made in Wisconsin by a guy who thinks he's distantly related to someone that once saw a Viking.:p
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Fixed it for ya. Spelling, grammar, accuracy and capitalization count, my brotha. :D You're welcome. Yes, you will be quizzed later.

I still promise to stay humble, despite my princely heritage.
 
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