Some observations and unsolicited advice

[Nathan the Machinist]

I had a lesson early on when i first start out as a machinist. i was have awful time chatter or noise on pieces i was parting or cutting off in a lathe. the young gentleman that was sweeping the shop, said "Jim try slowing it down". The janitor was giving me advise. Well he was right.
I always remember that lesson.

That's the problem with machining advice from the janitor. Just because it works, doesn't mean it was right.

I don't know about you, but a lot of people are afraid to push parting tools for some reason. Try feeding harder, not turning slower, to get rid of that chatter. It shouldn't squeal, though sometime when you do it right it will sound like sizzling bacon. If it smells like sizzling bacon, you're standing too close...

I'm sure you know this, but use the minimum amount of overhang, make sure the sides aren't rubbing and I like to put the parting tool on dead center - though some people like it just below.

And I apologize if you already know all this - I don't know what your experience is.

But really the point I'm making is, just because something works doesn't mean you're doing it right. Just because you can sell a knife for $250 doesn't mean you're making knives that should be selling for $250.


If a master machinist were to walk over and give you some turning advice - you would listen to it. I think if a master knifemakers tells you your knives need work before you should be charging that, you should listen, not defend yourself.

Just my .02. I mean no offence.

 

[sunshadow]

That's the problem with machining advice from the janitor. Just because it works, doesn't mean it was right.

I don't know about you, but a lot of people are afraid to push parting tools for some reason. Try feeding harder, not turning slower, to get rid of that chatter. It shouldn't squeal, though sometime when you do it right it will sound like sizzling bacon. If it smells like sizzling bacon, you're standing too close...

I'm sure you know this, but use the minimum amount of overhang, make sure the sides aren't rubbing and I like to put the parting tool on dead center - though some people like it just below.

And I apologize if you already know all this - I don't know what your experience is.
<snip>
If a master machinist were to walk over and give you some turning advice - you would listen to it. I think if a master knifemakers tells you your knives need work before you should be charging that, you should listen, not defend yourself.

Just my .02. I mean no offence.

On the first bit, when I got my lathe I stepped up and got a seco carballoy parting tool, and I was wondering why I was going through carbides like popcorn (with the frustrating accompanying expense) I talked to Carballoy tech support, and when I told them my speed and feed and that I was turning mild, the guy laughed, and told me to push it 10 times harder, I wasn't running it fast enough to clear the chip buildup from the carbide edge, he also told me to run it dead center instead of just below like I had been told by an old school machinist who still used HSS handground bits. He told me that the carbide was great in compression, but running it under center put it in tension, chip buildup increased that load and moved the force vector into an unsupported direction. I followed his advice, and unless I do something stupid, or get a really crappy bar with lots of inclusions I can get 40-50 partings on one carbide.



On the second point, . . . well said

-Page

 

[JCaswell]

To me it's important to guard your customer's faith in you. That means looking out for them concerning value. If they buy something from you and find out it's worthless on the secondary market, they won't be happy, and that's not how you establish yourself in any business---especially a niche of a niche like custom knives. It does not provide upward pressure on your prices over time.

 

[rprocter]

Will, from a buyer's standpoint, what you are speaking of is important as well.
i have about 3 years of serious knife collecting experience and have bought about 60 custom knives on these forums. BUT, i still cannot adequately evaluate a knife by seeing pictures of it on a monitor, (whereas i think most knifemakers can). so usually i buy from makers with a reputation for quality and consistency, and whose work appeals to me. but i have also bought from 'new' makers and on 3 occasions felt that relative to other makers' work, the price exceeded the quality. i then avoid those makers and chalk it all up to my gaining more 'experience'.
i think a more serious situation is that for the amount of time, experience, effort, concentration, etc. that is required to make a good knife, quality knifemakers are not getting a particularly good return. how long can they keep doing this ? for higher end users, the price range is set by what "joe average knife knut" can justify to himself, not by the amount of time, effort, experience, talent, etc. of the knifemaker.
but, why does this issue "turn your crank" so much ? you make a good knife and your buyers are happy(well, i am, so i think most probably are). continue doing this work which you really like, and let those with self inflated egos float around 'til they crash.
roland

 

[NStricker]

Have you ever made a knife? You ever smelled ironword, ebony or bocote as you sand it? You ever cut you finger after you sharpened your knife. Have you ever ground the skin off your fingertip? You ever have so many cuts on your fingers that you could zip your pants or start your car without pain. Has your wife ever bitched about the bone or stag you just sanded. Have you stayed up all night before you head to show, just to make sure every knife had a sheath and was perfect to your standards. Have you ever burn yourself on your furnace. Have you ever seen the birth of knife? Have you made your own micarta? Have you ever seen anyone get a "fever" for a knife you have made.

If you had? you would have never made that comment.

Have you ever made a knife? You ever smelled ironword, ebony or bocote as you sand it? You ever cut you finger after you sharpened your knife. Have you ever ground the skin off your fingertip? You ever have so many cuts on your fingers that you could zip your pants or start your car without pain. Has your wife ever bitched about the bone or stag you just sanded. Have you stayed up all night before you head to show, just to make sure every knife had a sheath and was perfect to your standards. Have you ever burn yourself on your furnace. Have you ever seen the birth of knife? Have you made your own micarta? Have you ever seen anyone get a "fever" for a knife you have made.

If you had? you would have never made that comment.

I've done all of these, except for the shows. I don't know you, nor do I know what your knives look like. I have no idea what your standards are. So I have no idea if the knife you sell for $200 has a mirror polish or is hand rubbed to 400 grit and still has fish hooks.

I see knives here at shows with a $150-200 price tag that have 60 grit scratches in the blades. There's a guy here in Ohio selling kit knives he's assembled for $300-400, but won't tell you that they're kit knives unless you ask.

But I think the comment of yours I quoted falls right in line with Will's comments in the opening post. Just because someone somewhere is willing to shell out some money doesn't mean that a knife is ready to be sold. Maybe yours were. I don't know.

I'm not trying to pick a fight with you, I'm simply using your comment to illustrate a point: Should a new or sloppy knifemaker justify poor workmanship simply because he's made some sales?

 

[JCaswell]

I went back and read some of the advice Jim received in his sales threads.
Most of it was really good (though it's strange seeing advice in a sales thread), like maybe doing 'deeper' grinds. Some of the advice was silly and had to be a joke, like making the slots on the screw heads align.


I don't know, I get the impression Jim's a good guy on his way to becoming a good maker, like most of us haunting these pages. :thumbup:



I will admit some confusion keeping track of who's saying what because similarities between the logos displayed by two participants. A couple pages ago the two logos were appearing right next to each other, so my swift powers of observation alerted me to the distinction.

 

[silver_pilate]

I was here first!! Yeah, I noticed when Jim started posting on the boards that our logos were similar.

--nathan

 

[Jim Adams Customs]

I am in no way inferring this towards Jim or any other maker, just adding it into the discussion. Just because someone goes to a car lot and pays $25,000 for a 1992 Ford Escort with fading paint and 158,000 miles doesn't make it wise or right, and it doesn't justify the salesman charging that much. I guess you could claim buyer beware, and that's true. But sometimes the buyer is a 83 year old lady who doesn't know jack about cars and doesn't know any better, whereas the salesman DOES know better.

--nathan

Nathan You are so right. There are some people that would pay anything because they have no sense and too much money.

Now back to Ford Focus on your lot for $25000.00 people wont comment on it either way good or bad. They just think you are crazy and go on. No way in hell are they going to test drive it. To be honest unless the little old lady is nuts, she wont either. Because there are also brand new shiney cars on the lot for lot less money. There isn't a car salesman that could sell a 92 Ford Focus for a 25000.00 on car lot with Jaguars, BMWs and Cadillacs.

Remember in the knife world only the best will survive. Not weather you paid your dues. It is all about making the best knife for your customer.

 

[Jim Adams Customs]

I was here first!! Yeah, I noticed when Jim started posting on the boards that our logos were similar.

--nathan

Nathan I didn't do it on purpose. I did notice our logos where very much alike.
almost identical. Name and location different. If you want me to change it I can. If you think it might be confusing to some. I was hoping people can read.

Jim from Scottsville, KY is not Nathen from Texas. LOL

 

[silver_pilate]

Heck, it doesn't bother me, really. I'm sure there are some makers out there who have had a logo that looked just like mine long before I was making knives. I guess I'll just have to get a restraining order that keeps our logos a minimum of 1000 feet apart to avoid confusion .

--nathan

 

[Jim Adams Customs]

Thanks so much for your sense of humor. Seems that we have lost that art along with the art of conversation for the sake of improvement. I am glad that we are not bothered by this "copycat" design of mine. For the record I have been told (by my wife) that imitation is the most sincere form of flattery. Unintended as it may be I guess we are both on the same page. It's a good looking logo right?

 

[Dan Gray]

I just saw this please don't take this wrong

I am a new Knifemaker less than 6 months. I have yet to sell a knife for less than 150.00. My first knife I sold was not one of my quality knives to my standards, but had the best materials I could put together. My customer love it and didn't mind paying for it (200.00). He got the knife on Thursday and Saturday killed the largest deer of his life, and used his knife to field dress it.

Two weeks ago I watched a guy at gun show demand a man to put his knife down as he gave me 250.00 for tactical Damascus knife, it didn't even get a comment on BF when I put it up.

Today I watched a lady gladly shell out 250.00 for a knife that my colleagues on BF said at best it was a 100.00 knife by was good concept and I should develop it more.

When a knife even with it flaws get 250.00 You are meeting the demands of who you are making the knife for "The Customer". All businesses are about the customer.

.

"My first knife I sold was not one of my quality knives to my standards, but had the best materials I could put together. My customer love it and didn't mind paying for it (200.00)."

I guess that says it all right there. Wasn't up to your standards, but you didn't have a problem taking money for it?

to each own here..
the Maryland mint sells to it's own type of collectors also, but IMO they are a long way from what most of us would call custom knives from custom makers..

if you sell something that is not up to your own standards that word will get around and you will be the one that pays the due's for that and one day wonder why your not selling knives 3 years in advance. if this ever happens to you look back at your one post here.. and think about it.. $250.00 for a knife is minimal for a seasoned maker.. are you setting yourself up to make minimal knives ? paying dues that you create that are unnecessary is a bad choice in my opinion but it's only my opinion.. there are some very gifted makers that can get a good run right out of the gate, that is a good thing,, but don't mess that up with some false thoughts..

also here you'll find few guys that will critique a knife fully , one we can't see the whole thing very well most of the time and we don't like to hurt feelings, but on the other hand if you want to go to a knife makers shop you'll find a lot more help in that respect.. as I say it's Just MHO here.. take what you will and leave the rest

 

[Mike Carter Custom Knives]

Jim, I talked with you at that gun show a couple of weeks ago. You seem like like a nice enough guy but I do find your attitude a little arrogant. You seem to put no value on experience or the advice from those who have the experience and I think at some point you will find that experience does count.

I made my first knife in 2003. I did my first show in 2007. In the 4 years between those dates I learned to make knives and it took me that long before I felt my work was worthy of laying out on the tables next to the other knifemakers. I sold my first knives very cheap to get get them into the hands of users and collectors. Since then my prices have gone up to a more reasonable price in line with the time and effort I out into them. I took the time to learn the craft and made sure my customers got their moneys worth. Now I have a backlog of orders becuase people know that.

I am not saying that you should wait 4 years but you seem to have an attitude that you already know it all in a few months and those of us who took longer are just slow. My mentor has been making knives full time for over 50 years and he will tell you that he is still learning.

Earlier you said:
"I will never sell a knife I wouldn't trust my life or my customers life with. I have too much respect for Art and the customer."
If by your own admission none fo your knives have been in service for more than 6 months, exactly how is it that you have so much confidence in their performance? Also you have not shown any respect for the art in this thread.

I just had to speak up and I hope you find yourself a big helping of humble pie somewhere along the way. You haven't done yourself any favors in this thread. That's my opinion for whatever it may be worth to you.

 

[atakach]

I just had to speak up and I hope you find yourself a big helping of humble pie somewhere along the way.

hehehe, thats good stuff, i have the g.f. bake it regulaly, just so i dont ever forget where i came from....

 

[AllenMcB]

You seem like like a nice enough guy but I do find your attitude a little arrogant. ..........

I just had to speak up and I hope you find yourself a big helping of humble pie somewhere along the way. You haven't done yourself any favors in this thread.

Glad you wrote that.

I'm not an expert knifemaker. I'm not a really, really good amateur knifemaker. I'm an amateurish, but determined, knifemaker. I do okay with handles and sheaths, but I am lacking in all other aspects (i.e., the knife blade itself ).

There are some areas where I really am an expert (knifemaking is not one of them), and I find it disappointing when the newly arrived devotees consider themselves expert in my area of proficiency. They can't be told anything, they haven't been shot down yet, they haven't taken their licks, yet they have become so self-informed that they can't learn from others. What a shame.

Having sold a knife for a bunch of money doesn't make your knife worth the money you got for it. There's a buyer for everything, regardless of quality or value.

Mike's excellent post brings to my mind a familiar old quote:

"The truest characters of ignorance are vanity, and pride and arrogance.”

A hope the humble pie comes soon, and nourished the deficiencies it should.

 

[James_Terrio]

*munch munch munch*

...............................

(those were the sounds of me eating my own humble pie and then shutting my pie-hole to listen and take notes. Thanks for the reminders, gents)

 

[David Schott]

I have conflicting opinions on this discussion.

Opinion 1: I want all new makers to succeed and think they should take all the great advice here to heart, conduct a healthy re-evaluation on where they stand in the knifeworld, and re-focus their goals on producing a good knife first and profits second.

Opinion 2: There is no better a sales tool for my $200 knife than multiple lesser-quality $200 knives being posted and sold. Those makers just hurt themselves and help advertise those who are doing things right. The market will cull the herd and the cream will rise to the top.

For new guys unwilling to listen to makers with 50 years of experience, I use opinion 2. For new guys who don't know any better and want to position themselves for the future, I revert to opinion 1 with the understanding that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

I think one of the recurring things i've heard from long-established makers was the statement "I wish i could track down all my early knives and buy them back just so they wouldn't be out there on the market with my name on them." So while it may be appealing to get that cash-in-hand, anyone thinking of being in it for the long haul really needs to think long and hard about the knives they put out to market, which can be really hard when you start.
FWIW, I haven't even made many knives recently, so perhaps my opinion is worth nada anyways...but I did learn 100% how to make knives in the "new school" model.

 

[Patrice Lemée]

Sadly humble pie can only do so much.

I believe that this has to do with somebody's character/values/upbringing... not sure how what i would call it. Everybody has an idea of what level of knife they want to produce before trying to sell and the price they should sell at. Ranging from wanting perfection and asking a reasonable price to putting the first piece they produce our there with the highest possible price in mind. I think that those who gravitate more toward the first option actually consider the person buying the knife as much as the knife itself.

Hope this makes sense with English being my second language.

Pat

 

[Kevin R. Cashen]

..But really the point I'm making is, just because something works doesn't mean you're doing it right...

Nathan very good statement, and you can get away with it easier with machining than I can with knifemaking, so I know you can imagine the frustration I so often feel. "theres more than one way to skin a cat", "it skates a file just fine", "it cuts more rope than any of my previous knives", "I read it in the $5 smithy..." etc...

I don't have much to add to or take from this thread but I can tell pretty quickly when asked for input from a budding knifemaker whether they are really ready to learn or if they still need to struggle on their own a bit to open their minds a little beyond replies like those above. Another gem I saw here recently pointed out the difference between years of experience and repeating the same experience for many years, if a guy has been making mistakes and continually learning from them for 25 years he is someone to listen to, if he has been doing the same damned things he did for the first 2 years for the next 25 years his advice really doesn't hold any more weight than the guy who is has only been making knives for 2 years.

 

[steelshaper]

Personally I think this thread is more about misunderstanding the massive amount of traffic to this forum. It is also about judging peoples ethics based, to some degree, on casual internet conversations.

There was an article in the Blade 35th anniversary issue about D.E. Henry. Apparently he was a real jerk. He also was a great knife maker. I don&#8217;t know I never met the guy! What a waste of time it would be for me to make guesses at what he was all about!

You can judge my knives, you can even judge my spelling if you have nothing better to do, but you have no basis or right to judge me.

In my first post I said something like "what are we even talking about". I should have said who. It was never specified what exactly the problem is. This thread started as a vague "they are not behaving like we think they should". This thread and the ones like it are polarizing. Those who agree are accepted into the group those who disagree are not. Some guys jump in and agree when actually in my opinion they are pushy rude and in fact not really that great at making knives anyway. Some guys have no respect and are rude to everyone. This is nothing new. This is high school behavior this is old people at the grocery store. You want to talk about entitlement how about slavery. Slave owners actually thought they deserved to OWN people. How long did that go on for?

For all I know this thread is about me, though I do not think so. Are my prices to high? Have I not paid my dues? Are you folks unhappy with the way I participate here?

Blade Forums gets so much more traffic than the other sites. That&#8217;s because most of the people here rock! However as the traffic increases and the questions are repeated more frequently some people will get sick of it. More people = more @$$H...s It is really that simple.

We will either have to work harder or go find a quieter little forum to hang out at.

I feel that if you would like to debate ethics go to the around the grinder and lets talk ethics. If you want to chat hen house style about how the world is gone mad well your either part of the problem or part of the solution.


So how about we talk about something interesting like knives?