Some observations and unsolicited advice

William, I think what these guys are trying to say is ,all the information a new guy needs is right here in one form or another. It's free for the looking. Just don't expect to get spoon fed.
One thing ya gotta remember about the web and boards like this one. Egos abound, like dog crap they are everywhere. They just need to be overlooked.
Andy, yer mentor is a mean, crabby, cranky bastid, be he's an honorable man.
 
Hey not to change the topic but can someone tell me how to heat treat 01, and how do I get my plunge cuts right? Also what belts are the best??..LOL...;)
 
I'm one of those noob knife makers and even though I haven't sold anything here or even taken the step to upgrade my account, I have sold a few at another locale. I went with simple designs that I like, I offered them CHEAP and they sold quick. I took good detailed pictures and described exactly what I was offering. Most of the feed back I received from buyers has been very positive and most said I was selling too cheap. One comment I got was that my leather alone was worth the total package price. I know for a fact that I will have to build a reputation and be on the ground level for a while. I'm not making knives to get rich, but if I can get a hundred extra bucks (beer money) from a few knives per month it's great.

I did post my first knife in this forum and got good solid feedback from the great makers that post here. I truly took to heart the information and took the steps to make a better product. If I went back and dug up those posts and pictures you would agree that I took the feedback and ran with it. I will never turn down feedback whether positive, constructive or negative. My crap pile of knives is growing steadily as reminders of what not to do.

I think I have an idea why this topic was started and I won't mention any names (think angle grinder, rock video and axe like grinds), but I would not place myself in that category. I prefer simple time tested designs that cut and I would not have the gull to put up my first few knives in the +$150 category.
 
William and STR, it's not about people being a "knifemaker" or having the right to ask a question. I'm just asking what has happened around here??? I know the first thing I did when I found this place was read back through 6 months of posts to learn. Perhaps it's a generational thing, when I found this and other maker's forums I thought of them as a free book on knifemaking. I'm guessing that other people think of this place as a free phone party line, just ring the phone and there's a bunch of people to answer the question without doing the research. I feel that the last style of posting does a disservice and is disrespectful of people's time. I don't expect a new poster to read through 6 months of threads but it is too much to ask for them to skim through the titles of 3-5 pages???

Like I said at the start, I knew this was going to be somewhat contraversial topic. I don't know how many times I've started it and just deleted it over the last week. I just wish we could all meet in a big room with a bar and buffet and sit and talk, it'd be a lot easier and I think we'd find that we've got a lot more in common in our thinking than it would initially appear.

Allen, yes, up in that part there are some hills, I'm down towards Montgomery and the cotton fields though :p
 
PJ made a very good point about how criticism is presented. There are nice and not-so-nice ways to say it. I have seen a lot of unjust comments about some art knives or collectibles that are mainly for display. A lot of people don't like them and consider anything other than a "user" silly and not worthy of consideration without considering the skill that it took to make the knife regardless of whether you like the design.

I have received a LOT of help and good advice from countless knifemakers and collectors both in person and on the forums. Likewise, I try to help a beginner whenever I can. You find out soon enough if they are really interested or just asking questions. Maybe they haven't decided yet. On the other hand, you do have to have thick enough skin to accept criticism and learn from it.

I mainly make knives for custom orders and in that case the only person I am really worried about pleasing is the person paying for the knife. But I still welcome comment and constructive criticism that might help me make the next knife even better. After all, that should be the goal of every knifemaker to make each one better than the last. You can never stop learning in this business.
 
I don't have a problem at all with art knives, there's some makers I really enjoy studying to try understanding the use of space and lines. Art knives should still have quality fit and finish correct?
 
looks like a lot of the gripe here is about what a poorly made knife by a unnone maker is selling for. Don't you think the buyer has some responsiablity in this. if buyers didn't pay those high prices for the poor knives then maybe that maker would not think they were worth that.

Mike
 
William - I've not been participating in the other discussions in the thread here, and some might even notice that I post in a lot of the "unwanted" newbie questions. I don't mind helping folks when I can.

I don't think anyone here is saying they don't want newbies asking questions or posting their work, they are simply saying do a bit of reading and research before you ask. I also don't think that it's unreasonable to ask that someone read a few posts and read the stickies before starting a thread with every question of making a knife from start to finish.

I also hope that you don't feel like everyone is going to tear you apart for posting a knife or a question. Most people here will give you straight advice and sometimes we'll step on a toe or two, but I don't think many are here just to bash people. I say post up whatever you like, I've not seen too many people get lambasted here for just posting their work or questions.
 
paratus said:
looks like a lot of the gripe here is about what a poorly made knife by a unnone maker is selling for. Don't you think the buyer has some responsiablity in this. if buyers didn't pay those high prices for the poor knives then maybe that maker would not think they were worth that.

Mike
Click to expand...

Yes, I do agree with that. However, it's kind of like having a nice house in a bad neighborhood. If all people see is poor quality for top dollar when they enter a neighborhood, will they continue to look or just give up and go somewhere else? Not saying my knives are all that (they aren't, by far) but the fit and finish is done to a good quality. I just think it reduces the traffic and a lot of good knives get passed by.
 
steelshaper said:
The multitude of threads like this one gives me the fealing that there is an unwriten definition of what a knifemaker is suposeed to be before he can ask questions worthy of answering. I dont ask many questions because I am afraid to.
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I didn't take the OP that way at all.

The way I read the OP was this:

This forum is populated by a lot of folks, and many of them are knife makers who depend on knife making, in whole or in part, for their livelihood. Many of them take pride, not just in what they produce, but in the personal history they've picked up along the way.

They find it annoying, to greater or lesser degrees, when new knife makers turn out work that is below the standard they have achieved, yet try to pass their work off as being equivalent in craftsmanship and value to what they produce. They get really annoyed when one of these lesser-quality producers puts one of their pieces out in the public, and is then unwilling to graciously accept the less-than-glowing observations of the sages among us.

I can understand where they are coming from. I fool with knives for fun, not for profit. I give away what I make, because it's fun to do. What I make isn't worth $300 per blade, or $200, or $100. It's worth a thank-you and some appreciation for the thought. My knives don't look like what they produce, and I wouldn't pretend that they do. Mine won't hold up to the scrutiny that theirs will, but I never thought they would.

It's that way in any group, not just among knifemakers.

If you pretend to be a hot shot mechanic among those who've been busting their knuckles for 30 years, prepare to get your ears pinned back when you talk big. But, if you're a guy who doesn't know much about cars, but really loves them, and doesn't pretend to be something you aren't, you'll probably find a warm welcome among the gurus, who will appreciate your enthusiasm and they won't mind pointing out the obvious.

Same here. I can turn out knives that impress my sons and bride, and maybe a few of my friends, but I'd never try to enter the arena of the professionals with what comes out of my shop. If I'm still around in 20 more years, I will probably have produced enough by then that I could hold my own in their midst. Maybe.

But, that's neither here nor there.

What does matter is this:

As a rank amateur in this hobby, I've received only good advice, good direction, and friendly replies from the folks here. I try to ask questions only when I run out of other places to look for answers. I always get treated well. This is one of the friendliest forums I've ever read.

This is the norm here, not the exception. If you come across as having a genuine interest in how things are done, these people will fall all over themselves to offer a helping hand.
If you try to pass off something that is sub-par as being above-par, you'll probably get called to task for it, just as you would in any skilled group.

You said you were afraid to ask questions here. Don't be. Just don't ask questions that would offend a reasonable expert.

"I've been working on this for a week, and the blade it still not straight. Here's what I've tried (explain). Am I on the right track?". That's a great question, and bound to get some appreciative answers.

"How do I turn out $300 blades with a $20 investment and make lots of money and be famous" is a bad question.

The other thing is, unless you're making your living doing this, don't take any of it more seriously than is good for your health!
 
Its not really so much what you say but how you say it and some people just don't care enough to go to the effort to present their statements in such a way as to be acceptable let alone appreciated. Consider for a moment how many threads take off by one posters comments that derails everything from things that are stated without any forethought to consequences or how it comes across. Now granted there is not accounting for some people that tend to read between the lines or think they pick up a tone when none was there. This often times happens when involving the written word. We've all done it. I'm not talking so much about that. What I mean is well, OK, lets take Cliff Stamp for an example. There is a good one. Consider how many times he came in and sounded off on a maker in a thread telling him something that just came off so abrasive and condescending that it pissed everyone off and how many good makers got chased off these forums from just that kind of disregard for respecting someone or their work, and not just the well respected ones either? Quite a few as you know.

You don't have to be a royal snobby smart a$$ to get your point across. You don't have to be scaring off newbies or oldies but goodies either. Some of the makers I met back when I was young and just getting an interest in making my own blades were nothing less than unkind snobs to me. I remember thinking to myself what a cranky old farts and as a result I have very little patience for any cranky old farts to this day and pretty much get set off fast from them. I also remember telling myself I was never going to be like that and be more than free with sharing what I learned and never forgetting to humble myself realizing I could learn from anyone no matter where I ended up. I worked in the dental business, as did my wife and I can tell you that in that field just like in knives just because a practice was big, just because a dentist was well known, or even famous and no matter how busy he got had absolutely nothing to do with how good or bad his dentistry was. If he was very much a famous name and a good speaker in all liklihood he was just that. A good speaker or a good teacher. I understand that some can't teach. There was a saying that those that can do and those that can't teach in dentistry. I never liked that saying in dentistry and never liked it in knife making because frankly there is no truth to it. Some do both very well.

And speaking of some that are less kind. I've met a few genuine pieces of work off these forums since joining and I was one of those that hung around lurking for several years before finally registering, mostly because of fear of computers and privacy more than anything else. I even met one such gent that rubbed me the wrong way a few years back right before I started my forum here that said when I replied to his question that my opinion was fine but he really wanted to get opinions from 'real makers' whatever the hell that means and to be perfectly honest with you I've never understood this mentality even if I was someone that made knives in a way other than he did that he didn't happen to give credit to or even if I was new, which I certainly was not. Just how many years have to go by before you become worthy in someone's eyes anyway? This again is a matter of not so much what you say but how you say it and how it comes across. I realized afterwards that it was probably just the way I was reading into it at the time and basically let it go without a comment but sometimes you don't realize how that is yourself until you have some time between saying it and can go back and re-read it.

Anyway, just because I don't forge doesn't mean he grinds a better blade than I do after all and that was my point with bringing it up. We all are individuals with strengths and weaknesses. I try to focus on my strengths and do what I feel most comfortable with. When someone goes to ABS that says to me is that just like in dentistry you learned an art and now decided to specialize in one aspect of it or more. Forging is a specialty to me. One of several I would say but certainly not all. It doesn't matter how he makes knives whether it be by magic from fusing some unobtanium together to make the master blade of all blades on a forge or doing it like Bill Scagel he should still not be so high on himself that he is above humbling himself to those that will replace him when he is gone. Personally I've learned from newbies and sometimes things I really was glad about. Even you old farts that belong to the AARP and have had gray hairs even on your chest for longer than you want to recall (wow like me I guess! :D) can still learn from that quack youngster even if he pesters you some to get your attention. I know some 16 and 17 year olds that have immense talent and I feel they are going places but its no thanks to some of those they asked for advice or help from that simply took one look and shrugged them off.

Lastly. Try not to jump to conclusions. I wrote a famous well known maker a few years ago and his automatic assumption without asking or thinking was that because he didn't know me I was inexperienced and new. Before I knew it he was going on about all the technical aspects of lock making and the correct way to do it and didn't even know my level of experience yet until he read my reply and then he figured it out. We all tend to do that now and then I guess. You never know though do ya?
 
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I have learned more from cranky old farts, in all walks of life than anybody else.

Hey Birdog. :D
 
Lets just say this is somewhere between the introduction of myself I never made and my opinion on this subject, all wrapped into one posting! When I first saw this thread I read it and thought OK, I get it, but the more I think about it, the more I feel I have something that needs saying! Not all folks build knives for the same reasons. Some are hobbyists, other make a living at it, and for some it’s a part time thing, etc. etc.! Myself I fall somewhere in the middle of all this.

Maybe I should explain something about my self here. I figure it this way I have been making things all my life and there is not much I can't do if I put my mind to it. I had made several knives over the years before I started to think about doing it full time, which is a relative term with me.
I also know where I stand on this knife business. I am a newbie but I am an old fart newbie, I am learning this craft in lieu of the fact that I can no longer peruse a 38 year career of carpenter work.
I say this next part not looking for a pity party, just to let folks know where I stand. I became disabled about 10 years ago. Not to the point that most folks think of when they hear that term. I am not in a wheelchair and all my limbs still work. However, some of them not as well as others and a back fusion has left me in chronic pain for many years now, and unable to do a lot of things for any extended periods of time. However I hope to be still running down the track at a wide open pace the day the good Lord punches my ticket to come home, because I refuse to lie down and wait for death to find me, that ain’t in my nature!
Knifemaking is something that gives me a chance to make a little money to help with the bills. It allows me to do something I still love, making things with my hands, and it is one of those things I can lay aside when I need too.
I would Love to train with a master but, probably never will. I feel I am on my own learning curve and I have to speed up that curve as I don't know how much longer the good Lord is going to grace me with the ability to this. But I learned along time ago; learn from your mistakes as well as from other people’s mistakes! So I glean every ounce of info I can from the internet sites, and forums.
I never expect to get rich and famous at this but I do hope to make a little money along to help pay the bills. However some times it’s hard to justify the time and materials I have in a knife and the price it I end up selling it for. My first two knives I made a year ago sold right away just by showing them. Since then a big dry spell. I chalk some of that up to economy!
It's been hard for me as I know quality, and my work is not yet where I want it too be! My work is improving with each and every knife I make and I learn something new each time I make a new knife. Truthfully I don't think a fellow should ever stop striving for self improvement!
I recently decided that I had been going at this “bass ackwards” as they say. Just as soon as I can pay off the debt I have out there the next monies will go towards upgrading my status on this site. I realized something that I already knew from my years in the construction field. No matter how many tools you have, if you don’t have the skills, the tools will do you absolutely no good! After all, the knives I have made so far are definitely hand made, because my shop don’t have all the fancy tools!
So when I upgrade and can post my knives, yes I do expect to be critiqued and welcome it. I go down through the sales now and even though I can’t post, and I look and can’t help but wonder where some of the knives I am looking at got their prices.
I also must agree with Will, “peeing in the pool” has no place. There is plenty of other forums that just love that sort of thing! I think I know the post that brought about his reaction on that subject, because of the way someone treated a very well known knife maker in a response he made on the post! I started to jump in there and say something but thought it best to keep my mouth shut as I couldn’t find the right words without inflaming the situation. If it’s this one when he gets enough he will defend himself. He is usually very eloquent, tactful and has a way of making a fool look like a fool, just by stating the facts and believe me he knows what he is talking about! He is probably the closest thing I have have ever had, to having a mentor in the knife making bussines!
Know what you’re talking about and if you don’t be humble enough to ask! OK I think I have said everything I needed to so will shut up!
 
I don't have a bunny to pet so I read through all this.:)

So what do it mean if you put a knife up for critique and no one says anything?;)
 
When asked what advice he would give to the aspiring knifemaker, Bob Lum said:

"Put the steel to the wheel"

Were truer words ever spoken?

Look back at our predecessors in knifemaking. What did they have to guide and help them?

No knifemaking books.
No knifemaking videos/CDs.
No one to ask/give advice.
No specialized equipment.
No internet forums

Not much of anything.

What they had was a desire to make knives, and make them as perfect as possible.

They didn't spend their time researching, researching, researching. They couldn't run to a forum every time they encountered a problem. They didn't post pictures for critiques.

They just made knives....and some spectacular ones at that. They didn't just "talk the talk".

If you want to be called a knifemaker, you have to pay your dues, just as Will said. You have to put in your time. You need at least a minimum level of quality in your product. Your prices have to reflect your ability and your reputation. You have to sell your knives to real people. It's not going to happen solely on the internet. You have to broaden your market.

When you think you are ready, get a table at a show and take 20 knives to sell. By the end of the show, you'll know what's up.

Thanks for taking the time to read my post. I'm not an expert at this, but these are some of the things I learned.

AL P

www.polkowskiknives.com
 
Al Polkowski said:
When asked what advice he would give to the aspiring knifemaker, Bob Lum said:

"Put the steel to the wheel"

Were truer words ever spoken?

Look back at our predecessors in knifemaking. What did they have to guide and help them?

No knifemaking books.
No knifemaking videos/CDs.
No one to ask/give advice.
No specialized equipment.
No internet forums

Not much of anything.

What they had was a desire to make knives, and make them as perfect as possible.

They didn't spend their time researching, researching, researching. They couldn't run to a forum every time they encountered a problem. They didn't post pictures for critiques.

They just made knives....and some spectacular ones at that. They didn't just "talk the talk".

If you want to be called a knifemaker, you have to pay your dues, just as Will said. You have to put in your time. You need at least a minimum level of quality in your product. Your prices have to reflect your ability and your reputation. You have to sell your knives to real people. It's not going to happen solely on the internet. You have to broaden your market.

When you think you are ready, get a table at a show and take 20 knives to sell. By the end of the show, you'll know what's up.

Thanks for taking the time to read my post. I'm not an expert at this, but these are some of the things I learned.

AL P

www.polkowskiknives.com
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Man oh man so much truth to this whole posting
 
Hi Al - I like what you said here.

Al Polkowski said:
When asked what advice he would give to the aspiring knifemaker, Bob Lum said:

"Put the steel to the wheel"

Were truer words ever spoken?

Look back at our predecessors in knifemaking. What did they have to guide and help them?

No knifemaking books.
No knifemaking videos/CDs.
No one to ask/give advice.
No specialized equipment.
No internet forums

Not much of anything.

What they had was a desire to make knives, and make them as perfect as possible.

They didn't spend their time researching, researching, researching. They couldn't run to a forum every time they encountered a problem. They didn't post pictures for critiques.

They just made knives....and some spectacular ones at that. They didn't just "talk the talk".

If you want to be called a knifemaker, you have to pay your dues, just as Will said. You have to put in your time. You need at least a minimum level of quality in your product. Your prices have to reflect your ability and your reputation. You have to sell your knives to real people. It's not going to happen solely on the internet. You have to broaden your market.

When you think you are ready, get a table at a show and take 20 knives to sell. By the end of the show, you'll know what's up.

Thanks for taking the time to read my post. I'm not an expert at this, but these are some of the things I learned.

AL P

www.polkowskiknives.com
Click to expand...
 
P J 234 said:
I will just add one more thought, and that is that there are different ways of saying the same thing. For example:

-That's ugly, I hate it
or
-That's not really my taste or style, but it looks well made and I appreciate the creativity


-It looks like you drug it behind your car as your final finishing step
or
-I like the overall design and choice of materials, but if you spent more time getting out the scratches before glueing on the handle slabs, it would result in a much finer end product.

I highly value constructive criticism, but I much prefer it worded in more of an encouraging or matter of fact way, than a harsh, negative, personal way.
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I think that's the main "problem" I have about this whole affair. It seems that some makers , for whatever reason, think it's ok to tell someone harshly that their work is below the standard. Then they use the excuse that they're just trying to help a newbie get better and that they need to grow thicker skin if they're gonna make it as a maker.
I personally think that's nonsense. I think that most people can take constructive criticism that is worded with some tact and basic manners that all our momma's taught us. It takes a little more effort but I know it's possible even for the grouchiest old fart among us.
Me personally, I don't much care one way or the other how something is said. It's the internet after all, so I take out of it what I can and leave the rest. I try to be honest with myself and study the critique to see if what is being said is accurate. If it is , I take it to heart. If someone says, 'maybe you could use the space between your scales and tang to hold change" I'd think< wow he's right, I got a huge space there. I'll do better next time. Others might get offended because of the condescending way it was said.
That being said, no one is entitled to anything. The newb's not entitled to answer for his question and the old timer's not entitled to say whatever he wants however he wants. That's how we get threads like this.
Just my two cents.
Later,
Iz
 
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