Someone PLEASE Explain Finger Choils on Folders!!

Sal Glesser said:
I would really like to take this discussion further. Maybe even some type of poll. I design both, I use both, but it would be valuable for me to know who likes what and why. This has been a good discussion so far, but I can't fasten the comments to any category. Age, location, lifestyle, hobbies, etc. I'd like to know more.

sal
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I had an idea about this: a giveaway contest for answering a survey (distributed through website/newsletter/social media).

The benefits for Spyderco are threefold:
1) Direct End User feedback on design
2) End User engagement
3) Edge-u-cation can be built right into each question

i.e. Do you like 50/50 choils? Nice picture example of Choil and no Choil in hand. Blurb about the pros and cons of the design choice, who it works best for.
Yes/No/Love Both
 
Choils are one of the more useful ergonomic additions to a folding knife, especially larger designs like the Military and Manix 2 XL.

The Superleaf is one of my all time favorite designs because of the huge finger choil. It makes it easier to control the relitively heavy (material-wise) blade).

The addition of jimping to the underside just makes them even better.

The biggest complaint I get is that it reduces the overall cutting edge, but when you gravitate towards longer blade profiles, it becomes a non-issue.
 
I was going to start a new thread but then thought maybe my question belongs here.

Long story as you have come to expect from me right . . .
I was watching youtubes on the Spyderco Sprig. I am getting more and more obsessed with that knife. I happened to see a review of the Spyderco Gayle Bradley there in the list and figured OK it is time for me to hear why this Bradley thing is all the greatness. I tend to ignore hollow ground FOR MY USES. Good for cutting small round stuff like small rope but hangs up in say . . . double wall corrugated cardboard packing boxes.

A week ago I watched the shpeal on the knife from the man himself Gayle Bradley partly or mostly because some of you say this is your all time fav knife / if you had just one knife etc. OK I'm learning and starting to get it. Some good design there; bellow surface lock release and protruding but thick lners for kind of a sculpted but grippy ergo. OK . . . GOOD STUFF !

I was sitting and looking at the Sprig in the online store, drooling, palpitating, stamping my foot and howling occasionally . . . you know . . . the normal stuff we all do and I started clicking on the Spyderco Gayle Bradley links and . . .

what is THIS ? ? ? ? is this a knock off of a Spyderco Gayle Bradley ? ? ?
noooooo it is a second version. A bit thinner / lighter . . . "IMPROVED".
Hmmmmmmm

What caught my eye was the finger guard but lack of subtle finger choil ( almost "finger choil" ) that was on the older one that had no finger guard.
Hmmmmm and double hmmmmm

My first reaction was here we have a serious knife user Gayle Bradley, I mean, that's his thing right ? Cutting stuff in competition. As opposed to thinking up stuff that looks cool, art knife if you will.

And what happens ? It's his BABY . . . and some body starts messing with it.
! ! ! !
I mean MAYBE it is for the better. I don't know.
I mean I noticed the kind of vulnerability of the edge to finger relationship with no finger guard.
Still I think if I were to buy a Spyderco Gayle Bradley that is what I want a Bradley. It would be like taking a classic Camero and some body comes along and sticks a camper shell on the roof because they think it might be a good idea.

So Q : who likes the old one (choil and no finger guard) and who likes the new one ( no choil and a finger guard)?

PS: I was using my slippy Case Trapper this morning, (you know the one that keeps getting censored because he hangs out with my Cold Steel Ti Lite that had the spiritual transformation) and . . . in spite of no choil AND no finger guard I was able to escape un damaged from my work with this highly inferior design.

Who knew ?

PPS: and NO LOCK ! ! !
Death defying ! What was I thinking ?
 
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OH ! OH ! OH ! OH !
I almost forgot my original post before I got off track and started thinking about the whole Bradley debacle :

Then I saw this comment and it reminded me to get back on track

Choils are one of the more useful ergonomic additions to a folding knife, especially larger designs
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That's funny because until early this morning I didn't have anything definite to contribute. Choil . . . no choil . . . here there . . . good / bad. I never mind having them as far as I remember but that isn't anything . . .
THEN as if burnt across the sky, by the hand of Bob, it came to me :

(and is ironically the opposite of the thought in the quote above)

A choil allows for a full four finger grip on a knife but for a shorter knife for pocket carry because part of the handle is on the other side of the pivot. In pocket carry as apposed to clipped carry. Personally I prefer knifes with larger handle than edge ratio.

A prime example that keeps coming to mind is the Cold Steel Mini Tuff Lite (top in pic) four finger significant grip in a very small knife.



Or not . . . since after looking at that photo I just tried it and I can get a four finger grip on the Boker medium stockman third form top.

PS: and to say : Welcome Back Sal. I missed you. Glad you are OK !
 
I like choils. One of the few gripes I ever had about my Delica was that it *almost* had a choil. Still loved it, and was terribly sad when I lost it after four years of faithful daily carry, but I remember that being a thing for me. Another (entirely my fault for buying that particular one) was that it was hollow ground.

The Sage 2 that I picked up a couple of months ago fits basically the same size for carry and use, is FFG, has a choil, and is less slippery than my stainless Delica was. I like the ergonomic grip choices with this one *a lot*. In fact, I am ridiculously infatuated with the thing. It is clipped to my trousers every day, everywhere I go.

I am mid-forties, southwest US, school teacher, hike, hunt, competitive shooter (when I can afford it), and home owner. A knife this size is essential gear for everything I do.

Except shaving. When I shave, I use a razor.
 
sixgunner455 said:
Except shaving. When I shave, I use a razor.
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Haha! Me too! I'm a firm believer in the right tool for the job and, at least for me, a knife's not the right tool for shaving. If Chris want's to use a knife for shaving then more power to him!
 
Wowbagger, Gayle Bradley designed both the Bradley Folder and the Bradley 2.
 
Sal, I agree a poll would be nice. I'm curious too.

To sum up my thoughts on Finger Choils:

I think they make sense on a large blade, as they move point of balance relative to your grip. On blades that are small and light, say 3.5 inches and under, that reasoning is a moot point.

Until you get tiny, like the Kiwi or Dragonfly 2. On those, the choil makes sense to me, since they create basically a full sized handle when the knife is open.

Or really big. Like the Tatanka and Military. I like the minimalist choil on the Military to some degree.

On a knife that already offers my hand a full, secure grip, they sacrifice edge length and snag on things I cut. I just can't understand making an already adequate handle, larger, at the expense of the above.

From my perspective, most of the attributes choils offer to those who like them are redundant for me.

As a couple others said, a well designed handle should already provide the grip you need, assuming the context of the total size of the knife. In my opinion, good blade handling skills should render the grip and safety "crutches" finger choils have to offer pointless. And a handle should serve its purpose, without having to integrate the blade to do it (within context).

Again, I'm not knocking people who use them, and definitely not telling you how to design knives. I'd say Spyderco has the monopoly on that one, for good reason.

But these are my points of view, and I'm sure many other people would agree. I'd simply like to see more Spydercos in my collection. Although the current finger choils aren't total deal breakers on the models I like, they're not making them a priority, either, when there's other knives out there which sing to me more.

Which is a shame, because, again, designs I do like would jump to FIRST on my list because they are so badass otherwise.

My wish:

Offer a knife that has the simplicity of the tenacious, but put it in a more premium line. A full length edge, simple lock, plain black handle, leaf blade without pronounced hump, etc.

Using that as a base model, maybe sexify the design with some handle options, a little refinement, etc. Add the options of both premium and high grade steels. Add handle color and material options. And so on.

Please understand I'm not ASKING for this to happen, as I understand that it's not that simple. Just sharing my fantasy.

The tenacious as is, is already 98 percent perfect for me. Vg-10 or 154 cm would make it 100. I like mid range steels that combine the best of both worlds.

As I said, if this budget line of knives was available with nothing more than a step up in steel quality, I would buy as many as I could.

Sorry for the long wind. As always, Sal, I highly appreciate your participation and ear.

Your job is not easy.

Thank you.
 
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I took a long look at the big book of Spyderco.

As a rule it looks like the choils line up with the jimping/thumb ramp on the blade. So while you could lengthen the blade you'll wind up jamming your thumb if you use that hold.
 
Jamesh Bond, is it the choil specifically that you don't like, or the fact that the edge doesn't go all the way to the handle? I'm curious because I just scrolled through the Spyderco catalog and many of the choil-less models still have don't have an edge that goes all the way to the handle. Would the Delica or Endura be as problematic as, say, the Caly 3.5? No judgment here. Just askin'. :)
 
Options. Who doesn't like options on how to do something more efficiently? I use a choil on a folding knife the same way you use it on a fixed blade. What is not to understand?
 
AlwaysTomboy said:
Jamesh Bond, is it the choil specifically that you don't like, or the fact that the edge doesn't go all the way to the handle? I'm curious because I just scrolled through the Spyderco catalog and many of the choil-less models still have don't have an edge that goes all the way to the handle. Would the Delica or Endura be as problematic as, say, the Caly 3.5? No judgment here. Just askin'. :)
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He doesn't like those because some versions have FRN handles.
 
I'm either neutral or for finger choils. On small knives, I'd rather give up a little blade and get a 4 finger grip than have a little extra blade and a 3 finger grip. The extra blade length really is tough to use when you can get a great grip to start. The dragonfly and chaparral are two great examples. Sure you could grind the cutting edge all the way back but the current way seems like a better choice.

On larger knives, again the big question is how much will you miss the cutting area versus the control. I think having more control on a larger knife is more beneficial than not. Now, I like Spydercos version of a choil where there is a bit of a stop between the blade edge and finger area. When it transitions straight from edge to choil it allows material to get stuck too easy when trying to cut. Those choils I'm not as thrilled about.
 
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