Someone PLEASE Explain Finger Choils on Folders!!

[Spey]

Jamesh Bond,

As others have stated, finger choils provide potential safety features, alternate grip options, alternate balance points when in use. You can choose to ignore that options can be of bennifit if you choose to (paragraph below illustrative example).

Yes, we all can adapt use of a tool that may not have various features to accomplish a specific task. Example: I can accomplish most daily cutting tasks with my Dragonfly and/or my K2 (massive differences in blade & handle size and configuration). Adaptation of user is key.

I will try and illustrate via couple pictures of one example where I believe finger choils are of significant bennifit, and ask you to accomplish the same type of grip with a knife that does not have finger choils.

Parameters are a blade length of ~3.5" (give or take a little). This is a familiar grip for anyone that has used skinning techniques to gut an animal AND also when performing fine cutting tasks in a multitude of applications. The pictures should illustrate a closed and open grip so you can see the gripping condition. This is a common grip on both my PM2's and Military models when I want fine control over the blade.

Closed:
http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc155/ChrisOBucket/Knives/PM2 FwdGrip.jpg

Open:
http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc155/ChrisOBucket/Knives/PM2 FewGrip Open.jpg






Regards,

 

[Surfingringo]

Jamesh Bond,

As others have stated, finger choils provide potential safety features, alternate grip options, alternate balance points when in use. You can choose to ignore that options can be of bennifit if you choose to (paragraph below illustrative example).

Yes, we all can adapt use of a tool that may not have various features to accomplish a specific task. Example: I can accomplish most daily cutting tasks with my Dragonfly and/or my K2 (massive differences in blade & handle size and configuration). Adaptation of user is key.

I will try and illustrate via couple pictures of one example where I believe finger choils are of significant bennifit, and ask you to accomplish the same type of grip with a knife that does not have finger choils.

Parameters are a blade length of ~3.5" (give or take a little). This is a familiar grip for anyone that has used skinning techniques to gut an animal AND also when performing fine cutting tasks in a multitude of applications. The pictures should illustrate a closed and open grip so you can see the gripping condition. This is a common grip on both my PM2's and Military models when I want fine control over the blade.

Closed:
http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc155/ChrisOBucket/Knives/PM2 FwdGrip.jpg

Open:
http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc155/ChrisOBucket/Knives/PM2 FewGrip Open.jpg






Regards,

I knew exactly what grip you were going to show before I opened the pics. I use it all the time.

 

[The Deacon]

I must admit finger Choils don't always stop me from buying , I just do alterations to meet my requirements .

Ken

I'm more surprised when any mass produced item comes close enough to my personal "ideal version" of that item that I'm content to use it without modification than when I feel the need to make look better, work better for me, or both.

 

[Kels73]

As most have said, choils are ultimately a matter of preference. Some people like the option of being able to place their hand directly on the blade, because they feel that doing so provides greater feedback and control. This is especially true when using the tip for detail work, since the choil also provides the added benefit of positioning the hand closer to the tip.

Personally, I don't commonly use the choils on my Spyderco folders, but they don't bother me.

 

[jpm2]

Closed:

Open:

I knew exactly what grip you were going to show before I opened the pics. I use it all the time.

Same here. Not only for processing game, but at work all the time.
This is the reason I find most blades over 3" don't meet my requirements.
The choil on the PM2 allows me to reach the tip with index finger while keeping 3 fingers underneath for support.
It's hard to imagine people who actually use their knives don't understand this.

 

[Dudelepowski]

Thank you for the insight Kurt.
I might go get one, now that I know other people like them.
Thread closed.

Seriously, does anyone have anything useful to say? I posted this looking for peoples' thoughts and reasoning, in the hopes of being able to get past this deal breaker on several otherwise excellent knives. Not to rant.

Thx.

It's not all about length. It's the same as a chef's knife. There are different grips used for different tasks. Actually, when I use a chef's knife, I generally use a pinch grip on the blade and the handle acts as a lever or counterbalance. I don't even really grab the handle in a traditional sense. Same goes for my PM2. The direct connection with the blade is why I appreciate the choil and it's more difficult to do a pinch grip on a small blade (compared to cooking knives). For me, it really has nothing to do with the length of the cutting edge.

 

[Evany]

I like them both. My favorite working knives are the Delica, Endura, Caly 3.5 and the Para 2 so I guess I'm evenly split between the two styles. I appreciate the extra bit of cutting edge you get on the non choil knives. I appreciate being able to get an extra bit of control and safety on the knives with choils. I really wanted to like the Native 5, and in fact I do think it's pretty great, but in that particular case I feel there is too much choil at the expense of too little cutting edge.

 

[inkynate]

I'm a big fan of the 50/50 choil. On my smaller Spydies, (Chaparral, UKPK, Native, Urban,) I pretty much always use the choil and think of that as the "regular" grip. I only ever choke back if I need additional reach, which is sort of rare. Just seems like the most comfortable grip, also very secure and affords a lot of control.

It feels natural to carry that through to my larger folders and fixed blades, I've never minded the choil on my PM2 or Manix, etc... Actually, the majority of my blades have finger choils these days. So much so that I've had to consciously stop myself from trying to choke up on non-choiled blades when I happen to be using one.

 

[Jamesh Bond]

Because.

Well stated.

Please keep your eloquence equally front and center. Bravo.

 

[Jamesh Bond]

I do not like choils, but I tolerate them. They are not neccessary for safety. A Delica and an Endura both will not let the sharp part of the blade contact your forward finger if the lock fails. The only knife I sort of like the choil on is the Military. That's it. I would be happy if Spyderco did away with the choil fashion.

Good point.

Seems this is the best benefit so far.

 

[Jamesh Bond]

I prefer a choil on smaller folders for many of the same reasons that others have already stated. I think the OP just needs to get a Starmate and quit trying to over analyze something that comes down to personal preference. The Starmate is exactly what the OP described and said he wanted. The Gayle Bradley 2 would also be good if he could get past the M4 steel.

Minus the giant hole hump that prevents grips I like.

Overanaylyzing?
How bout underanalyzing? So far, all this thread has really generated for reasons besides obvious personal preference, has been the secondary, accidental benefit of additionally saving fingers after inadvertent closing.

Even thse who like them really offered mostly subjective reasons. Most of which took some analyzing.

Thx.

 

[craytab]

Minus the giant hole hump that prevents grips I like.

Overanaylyzing?
How bout underanalyzing? So far, all this thread has really generated for reasons besides obvious personal preference, has been the secondary, accidental benefit of additionally saving fingers after inadvertent closing.

Are you saying that spyderco accidentally included the finger choil for safety on so many of their knives? Can you please explain and show evidence of this? Thanks!

Even thse who like them really offered mostly subjective reasons. Most of which took some analyzing.

Thx.

I think you will find that most things in this hobby are personal and subjective. If you are looking for scientific fact of why a finger choil is included on a folder you will not find one :thumbup:

 

[r8shell]

I like the way the Native and the Chaparral fit in my hand when I use the choil. I suppose that's a subjective thing, but it is also true. If you don't like knives with choils, that is also subjective and true. I don't know what sort of objective unit of measurement you are seeking to show that one is 'better.'

 

[stabman]

Even thse who like them really offered mostly subjective reasons.

Your reasons for not liking them are also subjective...

The only fact is of their existence on knives that have them.
Pretty much all the rest is subjective personal preference.

Even the benefit of not having it close on your finger with the sharp edge in a lock failure situation is subjective...there are people out there who like physical mutilation, who would see that as a distinct disadvantage.

Now go out there and use a knife.

 

[Dudelepowski]

So far, all this thread has really generated for reasons besides obvious personal preference, ...

Even thse who like them really offered mostly subjective reasons. Most of which took some analyzing.

Thx.

Uhh, this is more than a good enough reason for them to exist. I mean, I think Hummer H3's are retarded and would never buy one but, I don't need to start a long grumpy thread questioning why they exist. I know why they exist...because some people like them and find them useful. If you don't like it then buy something you do.

 

[Sal Glesser]

Sal, if you happen to see this, know that I'm a guy who loves simple G10 linerlocks with full edge and a nice handle. Yes, there are a few knives out there that fit that category, but I also love Spyderco. You guys do things really well, and it's a shame to miss out on your excellent offerings because only one knife in your line fits my simple criteria. Surely, there must be enough like minded people out there to warrant some higher end knives similar to the Tenacious (which I will say again, is awesome, including steel performance).

I wish there was true scaled down mini military in 154-cm or vg-10. I honestly don't care much for hard super steels like the CPM and other exotic stuff, but the simpler mid premium stuff sharpens like 8Cr but holds a razor edge longer, which to me, is the perfect balance.

I would buy a dozen of these if they were made.

Hello Mr. Bond,

Yes, I'm watching.

Designing knives as we do is afar more complicated than it might appear because there are so many personal preferences. Finger choils have much value as you've seen, but they are not for everyone. Our designs usually have much thought and purpose behind them to service the many personal preferences that our customers have.

For example, MBC knives will not employ finger choils. My designs, or Michael Janich's designs are purpose created and the customer for that style wants sharp edges and little else in front of the handle guard.

If you like the Tenacious, you will also like the Polestar and Alcyone that are in-the-works.

sal

 

[Aias]

I really love when Sal writes in... It confirms that he really does care about what we think.

 

[Danke42]

Especially when he just tosses a couple unseen models in the mix.

 

[Jamesh Bond]

Hello Mr. Bond,

Yes, I'm watching.

Designing knives as we do is afar more complicated than it might appear because there are so many personal preferences. Finger choils have much value as you've seen, but they are not for everyone. Our designs usually have much thought and purpose behind them to service the many personal preferences that our customers have.

For example, MBC knives will not employ finger choils. My designs, or Michael Janich's designs are purpose created and the customer for that style wants sharp edges and little else in front of the handle guard.

If you like the Tenacious, you will also like the Polestar and Alcyone that are in-the-works.

sal

Thank you Sal.

I'm very excited to hear about the new offerings. As others have said, it's your participation and ear that makes you guys great. Really digging the tenacious.

To whoever is still with us: As I knife user, I've heard some valid reasons for people liking finger choils. Trouble is, they don't apply to my use. Even the photos showing certain grips show the same grips I use on my knives, minus the need for the choil.

In response to the "Don't buy it" advice:
I posted this in the Spyderco forum because I LIKE SPYDERCO KNIVES. Get it? I want to buy. . .

My annoyance isn't about knives with choils on them. It's about knives WITHOUT choils on them.

Cool. The market says choils sell and people say they're useful. I get that. But, per the words of so said people, different folks have different preferences.

It just so happens that the market seems to be currently catering heavily to one preference.

Back to Sal's comment:
It'll be great to see what you guys have brewing. Can't wait to throw some more Spyderco into the rotation.
Thx again.

 

[Chris "Anagarika"]

Jamesh,

I'd say that particular grip can be used with Tenacious as well, with the middle finger on the handle right before the blade. It's just that having a choil to choke up and finger on the steel (rather than handle) gives different tactile feedback. I like it such on my GB1.

That's where the preference differs from person to person.