Someone PLEASE Explain Finger Choils on Folders!!

Hi Mr. Bond,

For my own reference, How old are you and where do you live? Country? Urban / suburban / rural? I'm trying to better understand the very large and diverse market for knives.

sal
 
Chris "Anagarika";16523047 said:
Jamesh,

I'd say that particular grip can be used with Tenacious as well, with the middle finger on the handle right before the blade. It's just that having a choil to choke up and finger on the steel (rather than handle) gives different tactile feedback. I like it such on my GB1.

That's where the preference differs from person to person.
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Ahhhhhhhh!!

Very good, Chris. Different tactile feedback. There's something I can chew on.
 
Dudelepowski said:
. . . If you don't like it then buy something you do.
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I started my long grumpy thread because I don't have something to buy that I like.

Why do discussion forums always have people on them who seem to feel qualified to decide which discussions are, or are not, in fact, discussions.

Or that guy who lives there solely to argue. Or the resident "cool guy." Or the "professor."

But I digress. . .
 
Jamesh Bond said:
I started my long grumpy thread because I don't have something to buy that I like.

Why do discussion forums always have people on them who seem to feel qualified to decide which discussions are, or are not, in fact, discussions.

Or that guy who lives there solely to argue. Or the resident "cool guy." Or the "professor."

But I digress. . .
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I think you're that guy.

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I think I have the same preferences as the OP: a simple manual opening liner lock with a grip-agnostic handle made by Spyderco.

I appreciate the thought and attention to detail Spyderco puts into their designs re: finger choils, backlock alignment, etc. but the usual Spyderco shape (big hump, 50/50 choil) unfortunately gets in my way more often than it helps -- freehand sharpening in particular. I find the pattern is great for locking in the hand for forward thrusts or for bearing down really hard into a material, so it's really nice in a fixed blade.

For a folding knife, I don't really hold them that way, or use them to that degree of strength. At that point, I'm likely employing the wrong tool. It's a bit like the kitchen knife adage of a sharp knife being safer than a dull one that requires more force. I also don't understand why some reviewers say a handle is too small on an LBK because they couldn't get a comfortable hammer grip on it, but that's a slightly different conversation, and my understanding has little bearing on someone's usage and preferences.

In any event, I've found the Gayle Bradley 2 to suit my preferences (easy-to-adapt-to handle) and my desire for a beautiful Spyderco folding knife. I'd be all over a Chaparral-dimensioned GB2 patterned knife, but for the most part the 3" segment of Spyderco's lineup are either flippers or choiled at the moment.
 
hoimin said:
I think I have the same preferences as the OP: a simple manual opening liner lock with a grip-agnostic handle made by Spyderco.

I appreciate the thought and attention to detail Spyderco puts into their designs re: finger choils, backlock alignment, etc. but the usual Spyderco shape (big hump, 50/50 choil) unfortunately gets in my way more often than it helps -- freehand sharpening in particular. I find the pattern is great for locking in the hand for forward thrusts or for bearing down really hard into a material, so it's really nice in a fixed blade.

For a folding knife, I don't really hold them that way, or use them to that degree of strength. At that point, I'm likely employing the wrong tool. It's a bit like the kitchen knife adage of a sharp knife being safer than a dull one that requires more force. I also don't understand why some reviewers say a handle is too small on an LBK because they couldn't get a comfortable hammer grip on it, but that's a slightly different conversation, and my understanding has little bearing on someone's usage and preferences.

In any event, I've found the Gayle Bradley 2 to suit my preferences (easy-to-adapt-to handle) and my desire for a beautiful Spyderco folding knife. I'd be all over a Chaparral-dimensioned GB2 patterned knife, but for the most part the 3" segment of Spyderco's lineup are either flippers or choiled at the moment.
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Well stated. I wish I had that way with words.

Thx.
 
Jamesh Bond said:
Well stated. I wish I had that way with words.
Thx.
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You're welcome. Unfortunately, I didn't really answer your question of why a choil is a common feature in folding knife design, and really only re-articulated what you were expressing.

I think you've brought up a good topic of discussion, and as Sal mentioned, they've definitely heard our demographic and are already working on more options. I love that Spyderco's brand was built on the premise of designing for the hand and not the eye, and to that extent I think the 50/50 choil has many merits (already outlined in previous posts). I'm of the mind that the choil is a bit overkill for general EDC usage and limits grip flexibility, but kind of lets a user be a bit more stupid without damaging the hand than another knife pattern would.

When you really need the choil though, by golly does it ever feel right. I've only 'needed' it like 2 cuts in 4 years, so that's the value proposition I have to take to mind.
 
Thx.

I know why they're common. People like them and they have their uses, on certain knives. What I don't know is why many manufacturers seem to cram them on designs that don't really need them.

I started this thread after being frustrated seeing TONS of knives I really liked, but wouldn't buy simply because of a feature I don't need. I had hoped to read something here that might give me reason to rethink choils, and therefore justify a purchase.

That didn't happen, but it's always good to talk to Sal.
 
Personally I prefer no choil... particularly if the handle/scales allows a close grip to the cutting edge i.e. my Presidio. However, I appreciate the choil more for the "fun" factor when closing knives with locks which close with your fingers in front of the blade i.e. my PM2. I know I don't have to close a PM2 with my fingers in front of the blade, but I usually do.

What irritates me, is when a knife's handle is far away from the cutting edge, and the choil is not really defined i.e. my CS mini Recon and Rat 1. Those are good knives, but I find myself missing wanting either a closer blade-to-handle length or a dedicated choil when using them.
 
I've found that I can employ a more "relaxed" grip with a well-executed choiled model...ie Chap.

A knife without a choil requires more concentrated grip in some applications. I find this true mostly with traditional slip joint knives v. choiled knives.

The more I have to "pinch" to maintain traction, I seem to lose a certain amount of fine motor control.

But, by far the most utilitarian, practical "excuse" for choils would be the safety in one handed closing when the elu needs to "flick" the blade shut. I think choils should exist for this reason, if for no other.

Even handle design integrating choil-like structure cannot address the issue of getting your finger bit by a disengagement flick.

ELU's one-hand close often, therefore choils exist.
 
Jamesh Bond said:
Thx.

I know why they're common. People like them and they have their uses, on certain knives. What I don't know is why many manufacturers seem to cram them on designs that don't really need them.

I started this thread after being frustrated seeing TONS of knives I really liked, but wouldn't buy simply because of a feature I don't need. I had hoped to read something here that might give me reason to rethink choils, and therefore justify a purchase.

That didn't happen, but it's always good to talk to Sal.
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Right now there are approximately 78 locking folders in Spyderco's lineup. Out of those 24 have finger choils, the rest do not. Forgive me if I can't feel sorry for you, given that you have over 50 to choose from while someone like me whose criteria include both a finger choil and a midlock have precious few. Speaking of things not really needed, I can't see anyone wanting a flipper or an Emerson opener on a knife that already has the most reliable opener in the world, the Spyderhole. But people obviously do want them, so I can't blame Spyderco for making them.
 
I'm not here for your pity. Or to blame Spyderco for anything.

Out of those 78 locking folders, over 2 DOZEN would fit my criteria otherwise.

Seems significant to me. And imma guess significant to the guy who sells those knives, too.

Again. I vented here to hopefully learn something new to think about. I'm also aware Sal participates and listens.

This thread has now served its purpose.
 
I would really like to take this discussion further. Maybe even some type of poll. I design both, I use both, but it would be valuable for me to know who likes what and why. This has been a good discussion so far, but I can't fasten the comments to any category. Age, location, lifestyle, hobbies, etc. I'd like to know more.

For example, the Stretch 2 has me baffled. I refined the design and modded the tooling, but more for refinement, than market. I'm working on a Stretch 2 variation (new name) with no finger choil and a straight spine. It will be interesting to see the two together.

sal
 
I really like most choils, especially the large choil on the Stretch 2. It's big enough to use comfortably with gloves if needed and you can choke up very comfortably for those harder cuts as well. Also the added safety in case of lock failure, and ease of one hand closing which have been mentioned already. I'm looking forward to seeing a choil-less Stretch 2 variation though! All in all I liike them a lot, but to each their own.
 
Sal, this probably should go in a new thread but I'll go ahead and leave you my thoughts on the Stretch here. First of all let me say that the Stretch is a design that I dismissed years ago after handling one only to later buy a sprint hap40 and have the knife become one of my absolute favorite Spydercos.

So first let me talk about why I initially dismissed the design after a cursory inspection. The first and most important reason is I THOUGHT that the handle did not fit me well. The reason I emphasize "thought" is because I did not like the way the knife felt with my finger in the forward choil. The grip felt a little awkward and the choil felt not deep enough. What I came to realize after owning the knife though is that (unlike other models like the pm2) I just never use the choil on this particular model. I don't know if that's because it is uncomfortable or if the handle just lends itself to the rearward grip but I always hold this knife without my index finger in the choil and in that grip, the knife is extremely comfortable. So for me, I think the idea of a model based on the stretch but without a choil is enticing. It would allow me to get my hand closer to the edge and likely add a bit of cutting edge. --For the record, I know that the choil was modified on the new stretch but having handled that knife I have a feeling that I will also not use the choil much on that design. Again, I cannot say exactly why but I think I will hold it further back like I do the Stretch.

Ok, the other reason I wasn't initially drawn to the Stretch is because the drop point is just too extreme and too abrupt for me. I don't mind a drop point, but personally I like them to be more subtle so they don't impede the knife's ability to pierce or puncture so much. This more subtle drop also makes it possible to use the tip with the edge "up" or "out". This is a cut I use often and it is very difficult to use the tip of the Stretch in this way. I also think that heavy drop right at the tip makes the blade profile rather, errr....unhandsome? I'm typically not overly concerned with aesthetics but if a shape doesn't work as well for me, AND it's ugly, it starts to get bumped down to the bottom of the list of needs. :eek: My solution on this was to sand the hump down to a flat spine which essentially resulted in a blade like the pm2 with the back hollowed out. I have kind of fallen in love with this shape as it gives me the functionality of a straight spine but keeps the blade profile narrow, which is one of the very functional aspects of the Stretch's blade shape. I think it's worth noting that I like the performance of this blade shape so much that I am actually considering modifying some of my Paramilitaries to have the hollowed out back and make a sort of Para-stretch-itary. :) Here's a shot of a modified Stretch next to a paramilitary 2 that shows how similar the two shapes are after the mod.



Anyway, there's a bit of longwinded feedback for you on the Stretch model. As I said at the beginning, the knife is one of my favorites in the Spyderco lineups and I would hate to see it go away, but some new and different designs based on the original would be exciting.
 
Spreading mayo on white bread isn't affected by a choil.

However, getting that even amount of cream cheese on my bagels requires me to choke up on the knife and layer it on with surgical precision. Otherwise with a choiless folding knife of the same blade size I'd apply too much force on the bagel trying to get that cream cheese to spread resulting in deformation of the bagel. That's just uncivilized.





Seriously, I like the choil on the manix 2. I can grip the blade as described by others here and zip open a box without worrying about cutting what's inside. That's what I use it for the most.

I also like the fact that if I do choke up on the blade the choil sticks up higher than the edge so I don't cut my gloves up during the winter.




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hoimin said:
I think I have the same preferences as the OP: a simple manual opening liner lock with a grip-agnostic handle made by Spyderco.

I appreciate the thought and attention to detail Spyderco puts into their designs re: finger choils, backlock alignment, etc. but the usual Spyderco shape (big hump, 50/50 choil) unfortunately gets in my way more often than it helps -- freehand sharpening in particular. I find the pattern is great for locking in the hand for forward thrusts or for bearing down really hard into a material, so it's really nice in a fixed blade.

For a folding knife, I don't really hold them that way, or use them to that degree of strength. At that point, I'm likely employing the wrong tool. It's a bit like the kitchen knife adage of a sharp knife being safer than a dull one that requires more force. I also don't understand why some reviewers say a handle is too small on an LBK because they couldn't get a comfortable hammer grip on it, but that's a slightly different conversation, and my understanding has little bearing on someone's usage and preferences.

In any event, I've found the Gayle Bradley 2 to suit my preferences (easy-to-adapt-to handle) and my desire for a beautiful Spyderco folding knife. I'd be all over a Chaparral-dimensioned GB2 patterned knife, but for the most part the 3" segment of Spyderco's lineup are either flippers or choiled at the moment.
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For Sal: my comments stem from sub-urban, largely office worker EDC usage (packages, letters, picnic/barbecue food, clothing maintenance, occasional arts and crafts). Age is 31, and more and more of my peers are starting to carry. I favour designs for EDC that are not too specialized and can easily scale from formal/office carry and up to useful blade length for general purpose. The key for my handle preferences seems to be blade length efficiency and minimal pocket footprint for its length/width.

For reference: I'm currently alternating between a GB2 and a Benchmade 940-1 for daily carry. For hike and camping, I take the Bradley Bowie and one of the folders, as both options are strong enough to handle light branch work.
 
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I like knowing that if I need to put my knives to hard use, they're more than up for the task, but honestly, most of my daily use is opening envelopes and boxes (and bags of dog food), light food prep and occasional tinkering and crafts.

I'm 40 years old. I live in a townhouse; I work in an office. Most of the time, I carry something between 2"-3" that can fit into an inside pocket of my purse or be clipped discretely inside the pocket of work pants. Usually Caly 3, with Leafstorm and Techno and Dragonfly as frequent participants in the rotation. Blade length is my primary EDC criteria.

The choil models that I have are more comfortable in hand, but when it comes to purchases, a bigger deciding factor for me than choil/no choil is gap/no gap. That gap between the butt end of the blade and the edge of the scales when the knife is closed, like on the Delica and Endura, I'm almost ashamed to admit it since it doesn't affect the function of the knife at all, but it's kind of a deal breaker for me. I appreciate that Spydercos are designed for function first and not so much aesthetics, and I know it's silly and trivial and I'm very much in the minority, but there you go.

Fortunately, there are plenty of gap-less Spydies, both with choil and without, for me to buy. Haven't had a problem yet finding models I like to spend money on.
 
Sal,

I work in office and my knives are used very lightly, such as paper, plastic wrap, occasionally fruits or bread. However, I do shave with them. Having a choil makes the various grips and blade control during shaving better.

Having said that, the difference isn't that much, I also shave with Endura and Resilience (two different choil less that both works). When I describe the tactile feedback, it feels much better if my finger is on the blade & can feel the edge bites and cuts. The 'ping' is very clear, where with fingers on handle only, it's less. This doesn't apply to fix blades, especially those full exposed tang as the steel vibration is carried into the handle.

I'm guessing a lot of choil lover actually feels it but maybe not consciously. It's that feeling that gives the sensation of having better control, especially for delicate work.

PS: I shave without mirror and dry. So the feeling and feedback is important.
 
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